Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

In conversation with Gripen fighter pilot - Brahmand.com

Q. What is your opinion about the Saab Gripen fighter aircraft compared to other fighters? For example the Eurofighter Typhoon, F-16, F/A-18, MiG-35 and Rafale who are also competing for the MMRCA contract.

A: The SAAB Gripen is a lightweight single engine multirole fighter aircraft manufactured by the Swedish aerospace company SAAB. The aircraft is the most technologically advanced fighter and is equipped with futuristic warfare technologies developed specifically for India. The Gripen NG has increased fuel capacity, more powerful powerplant, higher payload, upgraded avionics and other improvements. As India already has fighters like Su-30MKI, Gripen will only be an added advantage to the Indian Air Force....................................

Hehe, he is distracting from the question and not really comparing it to the other MMRCAs.

 

[the rafter]

I don't think this number will increase to this size but still its not impossible, just look the number of Su30 mki that India purchased from Russia (270 Su30 mki).

If its true, then IAF should lay out the plan so that they could negotiate in all case. Also if the deal is going to be of this size we should consider buying cheaper fighters, so Gripen and F18 will be the ideal candidate. I am sorry F16 fits the bill, but to be frank LM lost the battle the moment they decided to sell F16 to PAF.


No platform would be single as IAF is trying to reduce the number of platforms so it will be either EF or Rafale.

@ the rafter
Is this source reliable.

The news I posted was published in Deccan chronicle (has good reputation).
But again, since MoD has not given any official updates about MMRCA. Therefore every news we read is either speculation or the author's/writer's imagination/source. Can't say much until we here it from an official IAF or MoD source.
Procuring more than 126-200 from MMRCA depends largely on FGFA, LCA and AMCA status. If they are inducted on time (before the squadron strength depletes even further) then I don't expect more jets thru MMRCA.

 

[GareebNawaz]

No, they should NOT do that. Pick one, I wouldnt mind Griphen.

how about this 259 superhornets and 1 gripen?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

how about this 259 superhornets and 1 gripen?

That Gripen is just for me? I am totally down with that, lol.

 

[GareebNawaz]

That Gripen is just for me? I am totally down with that, lol.

Yep thats your Gripen. Put all your AESA radar, and 3D TVCs, and Eurocanards, and few JDAMS and have at it!!

 

[sancho]

FIRST HAND: Flying The Dassault Rafale

On February 7 at about 1910HRS, not long after walking away after many hours in an IAF Antonov-32 transporter that shipped me and other journalists from Delhi via Nagpur to Bangalore, I received a brief phonecall from an Armée de l'Air Group Captain at the Embassy of France. It was a brief message to inform me that I had been invited to fly in the Dassault Rafale fighter on February 10 at 5PM, and that I would be supplied with more information in the next few days. I wasn't expecting the phonecall. Even less, a flight in the Rafale -- arguably the least visible contender in the Indian MMRCA competition. Well, only so far, as it turns out. Dassault is a conservative organisation that I had thought didn't pay much attention to this sort of thing. The only person I personally knew who had flown a Rafale sortie was former Indian Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash. So as I kicked back in my room that evening, the only thing I could think was, "Huh?"...

More here:

Livefist: FIRST HAND: Flying The Dassault Rafale

 

[sancho]

Before:

Naveen Jindal achieves new heights with French Rafale

BANGALORE: Young and bright, one of India's ambitious politicians and MP Naveen Jindal kept his date with a fighter aircraft yet again. This time, it was the French Rafale.

In coolers to beat the hot sun, Jindal walked into the French pilots' room at 11.45am, measured and confident. TOI caught up with him minutes before he was due for a change of gear and briefing. "I love aircraft and flying is a beautiful feeling. I am excited because I am here again to fly a combat aircraft," he said.

Why the Rafale? "I have done the F-16 and F-18. When the Rafale opportunity came to me, I said this is going to be a different flight, let me take it. And, here I am," Jindal said.

Was he anxious? Any fear of manoeuvres? "Not really. Like I said, I've done combat aircraft before and so I have experience of what it is to be in the cockpit --of course on the second seat. Not fear and anxiety, there's confidence and excitement."

"I did not want to miss the opportunity of flying a fighter again. Just looking at the aircraft displaying their might in the sky itself is a phenomenal experience. You can imagine how exotic it must to be to actually fly. I am ready and nothing psychological is holding me back," he said.

The young MP then disappeared into the pilots' room for a change of gear and 30 minutes later, went through a briefing. At 12.35pm, he came on to the tarmac to a rousing reception by the media.

"I am all set to go," Jindal announced and waved with flamboyance that is typical of pilots. Seconds later, he was at the aircraft.

After 10 minutes of talk with French pilots and engineers, came a tete-a-tete with his colleague from the rival BJP -- Rajiv Pratap Rudy. The two chatted for a few minutes and got photographed, before Rudy wished him best of luck for the flight.

At 12.46pm, Jindal climbed the ladder, walked on to the wing and got into the co-pilot's seat. Engineers around checked if everything was alright after which the lead pilot, Plu Vinage, got in. At 12.47pm, the flight took a left turn and taxied to the end of the runway. At 12.51pm, Rafale roared into the sky with Jindal.

Naveen Jindal achieves new heights with French Rafale - The Times of India



After:

Rafale was a rocket ride, says Jindal

Bengaluru, Feb. 11: Two years after he touched the skies in F/A-18 Super Hornet combat jet, Congress leader and Member of Parliament Naveen Jindal took off in Rafale fighter aircraft at Aero India 2011 here on Friday.

Dressed in a beige overall, Naveen took off for a 40-minute sortie in the French fighter, which is also in contention for the $ 11.5 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal. On completion of the sortie, the Executive Vice-Chairman and Managing Director of Jindal Steel and Power Limited, summed up his supersonic journey as an “amazing experience.”

“It was like a rocket taking off. The thrust you feel is amazing,” he added.

Mr Naveen Jindal said he did not experience any difficulty or discomfort even during the manoeuvres as he has flown a fighter aircraft earlier.

Tata Group’s Chairman, Ratan Tata, flew Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet on Thursday.

Rafale was a rocket ride, says Jindal | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-12

 

[luckyyy]

Check out this...Its all over the web...

Ind to award USD 11 bn M-MRCA deal within one month
BANGALORE: India will pick up by next one month the vendor for its biggest-ever military fighter deal for purchasing 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft at a cost of USD 11 billion, the contract of which is expected to be finalised by September.

Addressing a press conference here, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said all the problems related to the offsets proposals have been sorted out and if the bid losers "don't put spokes in the wheel," the deal would be finalised in the given timeframe.

"We hope to start the contract negotiations in the next two to four weeks and the deal may be signed by September," he said.

The IAF had submitted its field evaluation trial report on July 30 last year and the Defence Ministry has been going through it to determine the aircraft meeting IAF's requirement.

Six aircraft including Russian MiG-35, American F-16 and F/A-18, Swedish Gripen, European Eurofighter and French Rafale are in the race for the multi-billion dollar contract.

Naik said "unless dissatisfied vendors put spokes", which may involve getting clearances from the Central Vigilance Commission or legal proceedings, the deal would be finalised by September -- in the next fiscal.

The IAF is planning to induct these aircraft to augment its number and replace the Russian-origin MiG series aircraft, which are on their way out of the service.

Complementing the IAF team involved in the evaluation trials, Naik said the process was a "complicated" one as each aircraft had to be tested for 600 different parameters by the IAF.

Under the procurement process, the Defence Ministry negotiates with the company offering the lowest price for the equipment required by respective services.

Asked about the procurement of new cluster bombs from American firm Textron, he said that would be first put on the Jaguar deep penetration fighters by the IAF.

procurement process ?

couldn't get , if procurement process is followed properly why would their be dissatisfied vendors ?

procurement process was followed in LCA engine deal , and no problum occues..

 

[dbc]

Here is an interesting aviation week report that offers a hint of the capability of the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets APG-79 radar, the ability to electronically attack targets including missiles beyond the effective range of the best BVR missile is capability that none of the other MMRCA contenders currently have.

The newest version of the Boeing Super Hornet, equipped with an advanced, Raytheon-built APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, can spot small targets--even stealthy cruise missiles--at ranges great enough to allow an effective defense. Navy officials are loath to talk with any detail about the metrics of electronic attacks and admit only to "extremely significant tactical ranges" for EA effects against air-to-air and surface-to-air radars, Gaddis says. However, other Pentagon and aerospace industry officials say that while air-to-air missiles are struggling to reach the 60-100-mi.-range mark, some sophisticated electronic attack effects can reach well beyond that.

Navy Details New Super Hornet Capabilities | AVIATION WEEK

Some have raised doubts about the F/A-18 E/F's future, the US Navy plans to operate the F/A-18 E/F through 2035 and the F/A-18 E/F will continue to receive capability upgrades via congress approved program called the "Flight Plan", the F/A-18 E/F is assured RTDE (RESEARCH DEVELOPMENT TEST & EVALUATION) funding until 2030 under the NAvPLAN 2030 program.

The U.S. Navy will fly the Super Hornet out through 2035 or possibly 2040 as its front line tactical aircraft, thus guaranteeing longterm support and upgrades.The Super Hornet will continue to increase its capability through the U.S. Navy’s “Flight Plan”. The “Flight Plan” is an advanced capability insertion roadmap that partners Boeing
with the U.S. Navy to ensure the Super Hornet remains combat-relevant and ahead of developing threats over the next three decades. Super Hornet capability will continue to grow as Super Hornet costs decrease

http://www.dbdc.gr/home/DAY_4.pdf

 

[SpArK]

@sancho

Whats with the report of Mig-35 been shown seperatly to officials and it doing things and the new news of 260+ MRCA?
Do we need to read both on same line..
will it be a split? if not what will be the time frame that the last of the MRCA aircraft will be inducted?

 

[the rafter]

'For heaven's sake, don't buy Russian MiG-35' - Rediff.com News

For heaven's sake, ultimately whichever aircraft you finally choose, please, please do not buy the Russian MiG-35 is the plea from strategic affairs expert Ashley Tellis to the government of India with regard to the $11 billion deal for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft that the European, Russian and American manufacturers are vying for.

Both in his report released recently titled 'Dogfight! India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Decision,' and during the interaction that followed its release, Tellis -- Senior Associate with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace -- pilloried the Russian aircraft saying it was the "weakest of the contenders".

"It does not have the sensor suites that the Indian Air Force would like to see," he said, adding, "It brings no new weapons to the game from an Indian Air Force point of view."

While acknowledging that 'it is a decent airplane, where the aerodynamic effectiveness is concerned', Tellis argued, 'there are no order of magnitude improvements and its mission performance in terms of readiness, maintenance, traditionally has been horrible.'

"And, I am not sure that the Russians have figured out how to build a machine that is really efficient in terms of spending more time in the air rather than spending more time in maintenance," he said.

Thus, Tellis predicted confidently that "the Indian Air Force is unlikely to think of the MiG-35 as essentially the answer to its problems."

In his report, the erstwhile Bush Administration official, who is well plugged in to both the Obama administration and the Manmohan Singh government, noted that the IAF had told him that the MiG-29 like its predecessor the MiG-21, "though a forgiving airplane, has poor handling qualities and terrible cockpit ergonomics."

Thus Tellis argued that "whether the new engines and digital engines controls on the MiG-35 will liberate it from the angle of attack limitations that handicapped the older platform remains to be seen, but the IAF appears less-than-enthusiastic about the MiG-35 for many reasons, not least of which is its lack of 'break the mold' capabilities the service wants for its MMRCA acquisition."

Tellis wrote that the MiG-35 does not bring any new advanced armament to the table either.

Tellis pointed out that 'all weapons that it carries are already in the IAF's arsenal. Not only do they not represent the increased potency that the IAF seeks through its MMRCA acquisition, some weapons are not even compliant with the Indian Request for Proposals. Moreover, they are also now challenged by many newer systems available in the West on offer with the MiG-35 competitors."

"The biggest problem characterising the MiG-35 as a MMRCA entrant is that it is still an airplane in development," and had not yet even "been purchased by the Russian Air Force. Thus, it violates yet another stipulation of the Request for Proposals -- that the aircraft be in the operational employ of the producer country's air force," Tellis added.

He predicted that "since Russia is desperate to secure the MMRCA contract in order to protect its hitherto dominant position as India's principal supplier of combat aircraft and to sustain its domestic aviation industry, it is certain that Moscow will offer New Delhi a more generous technology transfer package for the Mig-35 in comparison to its competitors."

Tellis argued that "a more generous package, however, does not mean it is a generous package all told: although Indian commentators routinely assert that Russia is committed to 'complete' technology transfer, these claims are suspect, if the Russian record in regard to past licensed production in India is any indication."

"Perhaps the ultimate detraction from the MiG-35's allure is that it provides no particular political advantages for India," Tellis said, and pointed out, "New Delhi is already a significant buyer of Russian aviation products. Russian-Indian military ties are almost entirely commercial anyway."

Thus, according to Tellis, "the purchase of one more Russian airplane is unlikely to advance India's goal of investing in transformative political relationships in any serious way. Consequently, even if all the technical shortcomings of the MiG-35 are overlooked, the political benefits of this buy for India are minimal."

 

[sancho]

Some have raised doubts about the F/A-18 E/F's future, the US Navy plans to operate the F/A-18 E/F through 2035 and the F/A-18 E/F will continue to receive capability upgrades via congress approved program called the "Flight Plan", the F/A-18 E/F is assured RTDE (RESEARCH DEVELOPMENT TEST & EVALUATION) funding until 2030 under the NAvPLAN 2030 program.

As discussed earlier, the "Flight Plan" is the upgrade program of the USN, which is not related with the "Growth Plan", the upgrade options for international customers.
There is no doubt that USN will keep funding their upgrades for the future, but about how important they will be for export customers? Even this source again says that they look at cost reductions, while export customers tend to look for increased capabilities and that's the difference.

@sancho

Whats with the report of Mig-35 been shown seperatly to officials and it doing things and the new news of 260+ MRCA?
Do we need to read both on same line..
will it be a split? if not what will be the time frame that the last of the MRCA aircraft will be inducted?

Not sure about the report of Mig 35, was it posted, can you give me the link?
Regarding the 260 MMRCAs, as I stated in that thread I think that is not the number of fighters procured for IAF alone, but could include INs order as well. This was reported now as well:

IAF deal contenders now eye Navy orders


There won't be a split for several reasons,

- the defense minister stated before that there will be no split, the air chief stated that he wants to reduce the number and would like to have even just 1 type at all

- higher numbers = more commonality, reduced unit and maintenance costs, ease of training

- the bigger the deal, the more side advantages from the vendor, or wining country


Regarding the time frame, that depends mainly on how many we will get from the vendor itself and how fast they can provide it, for example:

Dassault runs ther production line in slow mode, which means they can easily increase the production to offer us fast induction of not only 1, but several squads. They also are one of the first that can offer the fully developed and ready fighter (accoding to the latest reports, from 2013 onwards. The other Eurocanards and Mig can't do that, because they won't have all techs, capabilities, ready by then.
The 2 big US vendors can produce fast, but I think LM will be the first that will be able to offer the fighter, because F18SH must include EPE engine and EWS sensor upgrade, which is not ready yet either.

So the early we can get the fighter and the more we can get them from the vendor itself, the better for the time frame.

 

[sancho]

That picture shows once again that this is not a real Mig 35 prototype, because it still lacks the additional weapon stations Mig 35 should get and when we look at how close they are even with 4 stations, it should be clear, that this is not possible without a redesign for bigger wings:

 

[the rafter]

Raytheon (NYSE:RTN) Test New Weapon

Raytheon has conducted a series of free-flight demonstrations of the Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW) AGM-154-C from an F-16IN fighter aircraft.
These test flights were a part of the Indian Air Force’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition.
Phyllis McEnroe, Raytheon’s JSOW program director said that, “We conducted the demonstration to show that JSOW-C, which is currently integrated on various F-16 international aircraft, could be easily, affordably and rapidly integrated on the F-16IN. JSOW is already integrated on the F/A-18 Super Hornet and has been employed from that platform numerous times, so this test proves that JSOW can now be employed from both U.S. MMRCA offerings.”

 

[the rafter]

Tata forms JV with Lockheed Martin - Home - livemint.com

The Tata group has boosted its chances of becoming the preferred local partner of US firms bidding to sell medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to India in the world’s largest fighter jet deal.

On Monday, Tata Advanced Systems Ltd, a subsidiary of Tata Sons Ltd, signed an agreement with Lockheed Martin Corp. to form a joint venture (JV) company, Tata Lockheed Martin Aerostructures, to build aerostructures for the C-130 aircraft produced by the US firm.

Tata Industries Ltd, another group company, had formed a joint venture with Boeing Co. in 2008 to manufacture defence-related aerospace components in India for export to Boeing and its clients worldwide.

Both Lockheed Martin and Boeing are in the race to sell 126 MMRCA to India for $11 billion (Rs.50,050 crore), along with Sweden’s Saab AB, Paris-based Dassault Aviation SA, Moscow-based United Aircraft Corp., and EADS NV. Bidding is expected to begin in a month.

Whoever wins the contract will have to source components and systems from local vendors worth at least 30% of the order’s value, under India’s defence offset policy.

Tata Advanced Systems has also teamed up with Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. and United Technologies to manufacture S-92 helicopter cabins in India.

India is becoming one of the world’s largest military spenders, with the third largest defence procurement budget in Asia, according to a recent report by Deloitte Consulting India Pvt. Ltd. For 2010-11, India earmarked $32.03 billion for national defence, including $13.04 billion for acquiring new weapons systems equipment and services.

The procurement budget is estimated to rise to $42 billion by 2015, making India one of the most attractive defence markets, Deloitte said.

“Capabilities of Indian automotive companies, low-cost manufacturing centre and offset policies are driving more Indian companies to forging tie-ups with international aerospace majors,” said John Siddharth, industry analyst, aerospace and defence, for South and West Asia at consulting firm Frost and Sullivan. “However, Indian companies need to create high confidence levels in the global market, and this can be done by tying up with experienced global partners. Tata group is also looking at creating global aerospace brand by partnering with international aerospace companies to enable itself to venture into the international market,” he added.

The Tata Lockheed Martin Aerostructures facility will come up near the Hyderabad airport in the later part of the year, a Tata Sons spokesperson said in an email.

The facility is export oriented. Its products will form a key aircraft structure that Lockheed Martin will integrate and complete for global C-130 aircraft customers, a statement said. Investment details were not disclosed.

The Lockheed C-130 Hercules is a four-engine turboprop military transport aircraft. The Indian Air Force recently inducted the C130J Super Hercules tactical airlift transport aircraft.