Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions
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Imran Khan
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ye hai final 
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Yes, the report contents will be interesting to read - don't you have any friends or relatives in the air force?
gubbi
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Yes, the report contents will be interesting to read - don't you have any friends or relatives in the air force?
My F-i-L. Not exactly on the best of terms with him and he never ever discusses work at his home, even if he is totally drunk.
ejaz007
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ARCHON
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ARCHON
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India plays down reports of MMRCA decision
11 August 2010
The official spokesman of the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has downplayed media reports that France's Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon have emerged as favourites to win India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest.
Speaking to Jane's on 10 August, Sitanshu Kar said no decisions have been made about the programme following the MoD's receipt of a comprehensive trial report on the six rival fighters competing for the INR420 billion (USD9.1 billion) contract.
Some media outlets in India had earlier reported that the results of the MMRCA technical evaluations, which concluded in mid-2010, had prompted the Indian Air Force (IAF) to recommend to the MoD that the shortlist be narrowed down to just two aircraft: the Rafale and Typhoon.
The other platforms competing for the 126-aircraft tender are Boeing's F/A-18E/F, Lockheed Martin's F-16IN, the Russian United Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35 and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen NG.
India plays down reports of MMRCA decision
11 August 2010
The official spokesman of the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has downplayed media reports that France's Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon have emerged as favourites to win India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest.
Speaking to Jane's on 10 August, Sitanshu Kar said no decisions have been made about the programme following the MoD's receipt of a comprehensive trial report on the six rival fighters competing for the INR420 billion (USD9.1 billion) contract.
Some media outlets in India had earlier reported that the results of the MMRCA technical evaluations, which concluded in mid-2010, had prompted the Indian Air Force (IAF) to recommend to the MoD that the shortlist be narrowed down to just two aircraft: the Rafale and Typhoon.
The other platforms competing for the 126-aircraft tender are Boeing's F/A-18E/F, Lockheed Martin's F-16IN, the Russian United Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35 and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen NG.
India plays down reports of MMRCA decision
ejaz007
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Personally I would be glad if you select any of the US fighters. Than you would know how difficult it is to negotiate with the Americans. Once you enter into final negotiations than you will come to know what they shall be giving you and what not. Your acquisition plans would be delayed by atleast one year.
Dark Angel
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Every defence deal takes time this is not any $200-400 million deal its a $ 12 billion deal
At our pakistani friends i would like to ask why hasent the U-214 been finalised yet even on papers
All the fighters are world class so evaluating them throughly is essential and then political bargain also plays a vital role so the intellectuals will hold their horses and know that we will get the best there is to offer on the plate
At our pakistani friends i would like to ask why hasent the U-214 been finalised yet even on papers
All the fighters are world class so evaluating them throughly is essential and then political bargain also plays a vital role so the intellectuals will hold their horses and know that we will get the best there is to offer on the plate
flanker143
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A Big Fat MMRCA Update
Sick of hearsay and rumours? Well, here's some stuff that's confirmed true, new, and potentially explosive for contenders in the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. Let me just start by saying that the ball is squarely with the MoD now -- the field evaluation trial report has been submitted, but has not yet been approved by the MoD. There is likely to be a measure of back and forth between South Block and Vayu Bhawan before it is approved and passed on for the next stage. In the meanwhile, chew on this. No rumours here.
Point One, The Indian Air Force won't choose a twin-engine aircraft in the MMRCA, if a single-engine aircraft can "do the job", i.e, is satisfactorily compliant on all 643 test points that each of the six airplanes were tested for during the field evaluation trials (FETs). The IAF is of the view that both single and twin engine platforms have their own advantages, but that it will not discriminate between the two. If all six aircraft are compliant, the cheapest will be selected whether its twin or single-engined.
Point Two, and this is a biggie -- The model being used to gauge cost is not the lifecycle cost (LCC) model as was previously thought. That model has been dumped since the IAF perceives it to be indeterminable (read, ambiguous), and not measured in precisely the same way across the six aircraft being offered. In other words, the MMRCA purchase model will be based on unit flyaway cost of aircraft and financing options -- i.e, not overall cost of ownership. The IAF decided that it would only work with what is "determinable". In other words, no complex formulae on future savings on maintenance and overhaul. Do you see why I used the word bombshell in the post title?
Point Three, cost is going to be a big determinant. Out of the six aircraft that are judged compliant, the cheapest will be identified as L1, and will logically be the chosen aircraft.
Point Three-and-a-half, it emerges now that each vendor was extensively briefed on their performance once the trials were over, so they have a comprehensive sense of how they performed -- their function of compliance, if you will -- but they have nothing to compare it with. So unless you account for industrial espionage, none of the vendors know how the others have performed, but know exactly how well or badly their own platform performed during trials.
Point Four, the air force's trial report has been submitted to the MoD, but the latter hasn't approved it yet. The trial report strictly contains a tabulated representation of each contending platform's compliance or otherwise for each of 643 test points. Significantly, the trial report does not quantify the level of compliance of each airplane, but rather leaves this for the MoD to understand. In other words, the trial report has all the data and results, but no recommendations, no merit list, no explicit downselect, no stated eliminations, nothing. Yet, by virtue of the data it presents, everything is implicit. It provides the data. It provides the benchmarks for compliance. The MoD figures out who's in, who's not quite in, who's definitely out. The IAF hasn't put that down. The IAF has submitted a "factual report" -- the rest is upto the MoD. Again, there's been no ranking at any stage.
Point Five, there have been frequent attempts by various players to suggest that some of the non-US contenders will have trouble getting export licenses for subsystems that may be of American origin (like the Gripen's engines, weapons on some of the others etc). Let's lay that to rest for now -- the IAF extracted government-endorsed guarantees from each such contending vendor that there would be no problems in the supply of such equipment, and it was based on this guarantee certificate that the contender was allowed to participate in trials.
Finally, the option exists for the IAF to go for more than 126 aircraft, but a decision has not yet been taken on whether to club that option with the principal purchase.
Sick of hearsay and rumours? Well, here's some stuff that's confirmed true, new, and potentially explosive for contenders in the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. Let me just start by saying that the ball is squarely with the MoD now -- the field evaluation trial report has been submitted, but has not yet been approved by the MoD. There is likely to be a measure of back and forth between South Block and Vayu Bhawan before it is approved and passed on for the next stage. In the meanwhile, chew on this. No rumours here.
Point One, The Indian Air Force won't choose a twin-engine aircraft in the MMRCA, if a single-engine aircraft can "do the job", i.e, is satisfactorily compliant on all 643 test points that each of the six airplanes were tested for during the field evaluation trials (FETs). The IAF is of the view that both single and twin engine platforms have their own advantages, but that it will not discriminate between the two. If all six aircraft are compliant, the cheapest will be selected whether its twin or single-engined.
Point Two, and this is a biggie -- The model being used to gauge cost is not the lifecycle cost (LCC) model as was previously thought. That model has been dumped since the IAF perceives it to be indeterminable (read, ambiguous), and not measured in precisely the same way across the six aircraft being offered. In other words, the MMRCA purchase model will be based on unit flyaway cost of aircraft and financing options -- i.e, not overall cost of ownership. The IAF decided that it would only work with what is "determinable". In other words, no complex formulae on future savings on maintenance and overhaul. Do you see why I used the word bombshell in the post title?
Point Three, cost is going to be a big determinant. Out of the six aircraft that are judged compliant, the cheapest will be identified as L1, and will logically be the chosen aircraft.
Point Three-and-a-half, it emerges now that each vendor was extensively briefed on their performance once the trials were over, so they have a comprehensive sense of how they performed -- their function of compliance, if you will -- but they have nothing to compare it with. So unless you account for industrial espionage, none of the vendors know how the others have performed, but know exactly how well or badly their own platform performed during trials.
Point Four, the air force's trial report has been submitted to the MoD, but the latter hasn't approved it yet. The trial report strictly contains a tabulated representation of each contending platform's compliance or otherwise for each of 643 test points. Significantly, the trial report does not quantify the level of compliance of each airplane, but rather leaves this for the MoD to understand. In other words, the trial report has all the data and results, but no recommendations, no merit list, no explicit downselect, no stated eliminations, nothing. Yet, by virtue of the data it presents, everything is implicit. It provides the data. It provides the benchmarks for compliance. The MoD figures out who's in, who's not quite in, who's definitely out. The IAF hasn't put that down. The IAF has submitted a "factual report" -- the rest is upto the MoD. Again, there's been no ranking at any stage.
Point Five, there have been frequent attempts by various players to suggest that some of the non-US contenders will have trouble getting export licenses for subsystems that may be of American origin (like the Gripen's engines, weapons on some of the others etc). Let's lay that to rest for now -- the IAF extracted government-endorsed guarantees from each such contending vendor that there would be no problems in the supply of such equipment, and it was based on this guarantee certificate that the contender was allowed to participate in trials.
Finally, the option exists for the IAF to go for more than 126 aircraft, but a decision has not yet been taken on whether to club that option with the principal purchase.
flanker143
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'IAF combat jet selection will be political decision'
2010-08-12 17:40:00
The Indian Air Force (IAF) might have laid down 643 parameters while evaluating the six fighters in contention for its $10 billion order for 126 medium multi-role combat jets (MMRCAs) but the eventual decision on this will be taken at the political level, an informed source said Thursday.
'The evaluation was meticulously done with the aircraft examined on 643 parameters. We have submitted a report to the defence ministry stating to which extent the aircraft were compliant,' the source said, requesting anonymity as he was not authorised to speak to the media.
'We have done an objective assessment taking into account the needs of national security. There will be political considerations (in making the final choice).
'The cost will be a factor. Politics will also be a factor,' the source said, adding: 'We have not graded the aircraft but only stated the extent to which they are compliant with the parameters we laid down.'
The IAF submitted its report last month. Once this is evaluated by the ministry, all six manufacturers will be called and told which three of them have been shortlisted for the final round. The commercial bids of these three manufacturers will then be opened and negotiations conducted to decide on the eventual price.
The contract is likely to be signed early in 2011.
The six jets in contention are the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Saab Gripen, the Dasault Rafale and the MiG-35.
One set of flight trials was conducted in India last year and another in the country of manufacture earlier this year, which included the live firing of ammunition.
Eighteen of the planes will be bought in a fly-away condition and the remaining manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) under a transfer of technology (TOT) agreement.
2010-08-12 17:40:00
The Indian Air Force (IAF) might have laid down 643 parameters while evaluating the six fighters in contention for its $10 billion order for 126 medium multi-role combat jets (MMRCAs) but the eventual decision on this will be taken at the political level, an informed source said Thursday.
'The evaluation was meticulously done with the aircraft examined on 643 parameters. We have submitted a report to the defence ministry stating to which extent the aircraft were compliant,' the source said, requesting anonymity as he was not authorised to speak to the media.
'We have done an objective assessment taking into account the needs of national security. There will be political considerations (in making the final choice).
'The cost will be a factor. Politics will also be a factor,' the source said, adding: 'We have not graded the aircraft but only stated the extent to which they are compliant with the parameters we laid down.'
The IAF submitted its report last month. Once this is evaluated by the ministry, all six manufacturers will be called and told which three of them have been shortlisted for the final round. The commercial bids of these three manufacturers will then be opened and negotiations conducted to decide on the eventual price.
The contract is likely to be signed early in 2011.
The six jets in contention are the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Saab Gripen, the Dasault Rafale and the MiG-35.
One set of flight trials was conducted in India last year and another in the country of manufacture earlier this year, which included the live firing of ammunition.
Eighteen of the planes will be bought in a fly-away condition and the remaining manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) under a transfer of technology (TOT) agreement.
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kish
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Tired of the B.S.. I seriously hope we dont get another Russian plane when we already have the MKi. India can get other planes like the Rafale..
we are going to get 42 more mki and pak fa in future.
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