Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[soaringphnx]

for me both eu fighters are more or less the same .... but the point is we want them fast !!!

This offer gives us an opportunity to do just that!

 

[Dash]

Its better if we can stick to MRCA, and whetever the outcome is will be better for us.

We dont know what price tag rafale will carry for only 40 fighters, and as per depleting force levels, then we can actually go for the 65 Mirages from Saudi. That will be better...but not these....

 

[Chaluboy]

Its better if we can stick to MRCA, and whetever the outcome is will be better for us.

We dont know what price tag rafale will carry for only 40 fighters, and as per depleting force levels, then we can actually go for the 65 Mirages from Saudi. That will be better...but not these....

agree with dash

 

[sancho]

Source Reteurs --

PARIS, April 15 (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia has reached a memorandum of understanding with France to buy 48 Rafale aircraft from Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) , with an option for a further 48, French business daily Les Echos said on Friday.
The deal for the multi-role fighters, estimated to be worth up to 6 billion euros ($7.72 billion), could be finalised by the end of the year, the newspaper said.


Source Bloomberg --

April 15 (Bloomberg) -- Dassault Aviation SA shares rose as
much as 4.2 percent after Les Echos reported Saudi Arabia is
planning an order for as many as 96 of the company's Rafale combat

And because you don't thrust arab sources, one more western:

Financial Times (April 15/05) – Saudis pledge to buy French jets in €6bn deal. “Saudi Arabia has agreed in principle to acquire up to 96 Rafale combat aircraft from France’s Dassault Aviation for some €6bn, Les Echos, the FT’s French sister newspaper, has learnt. The agreement forms the cornerstone of a broader defence, security and industrial accord estimated to be worth up to €20bn ($26bn, £14bn) signed during a meeting in Paris yesterday between Jacques Chirac, French president, and Crown Prince Abdullah, Saudi Arabia’s de facto ruler.”

As you can see it was €6 billions for 96 Rafales.

Good question ...I dont know the answer. But what i can do is guess from published reports -->

1) Rafale is considered as more expensive than EF. -- Although there are no confirmed reports and everybody has their own version.
2) The deal for EF with saudi was only a small part of big deal. Saudi's were negotiating a 40 Billion pound deal with UK...for upgrading their existing weaponery , tornadoes , etc....One can only guess how much you can bargain when you have a deal of this magnitude going on ....and pretty much UK has a huge say in european consortium...I am betting bucks...if India would have been in Saudi's place then we would have dragged the price further down.

Rafale was never more expensive, it always was quoted as slightly cheaper! So that point doesn't fit here and as you can see also, the Rafale deal had also side deals, that would have gone up to €20 billions in total. However, lets wait and see when real numbers for us will come out.

Weapon trials were supposed to happen in country of origin ..atleast thats what was in the plan. I am pretty sure that i read reports about security/safety concerns with Foreign weapons coming to India. Two teams of IAF went to coutries of origin and tested out the weapons on each and every aircraft. This included flying and weapon testing on Gripen.. which version of Gripen -- i dont have access to that info. But i am pretty much sure they would have had access to Gripen Demo in Sweden including weapon testing on simulators and aircraft.

That's not correct, the vendors had the choice to come to India to make the weapon trials, or to field them in their own countires. It was reported that the Gripen D, the Mig and AFAIK also the US fighters made them in India (not completely sure about Rafale, but I think it made it in India too). The EF that came to India was from German Luftwaffe and these are less developed for A2G, that's why the consortium said from the beginning, that the weapon trials will be fielded in UK, with british EFs.

I pointed that out not because of your selection but because IN opted for Mig 29K with no confirmation on A2G roles. So there is definetly more to it than meets the eye when we say it hasnt proven itself in A2G. The fact that Mig 29 is proven platform was enough for IN to order it for naval aviation (coupled with fact that Russian arm twisting also did the trick but thats besides the point). Like i said ..the platform has proven itself...if a aircraft is undergoing modifications that doesnt mean it has to prove all over again for each and every quality of the aircraft.

Just like you said, IN had no real choice to buy other fighters that these Mig 29K. It was a combined deal and there wer not many other fighters that could be used from Gorshkov, or Vikrant and that's why the limited A2G capabilities doesn't matter that much for them.
IAF instead has the option of 6 different fighters to supplemtent the exsisting fleet, that's why they have totally different options to set the requirements

 

[sancho]

This may also be a result of France realizing that India is not going to go with Rafael and hence trying to fill in the time gap between now and delivery of the MRCA planes. Hence the reference to the similarity in Mirage 2000-9 and Rafael from running costs perspective.

Actually this news is not new, they offered us this even last year as an appetizer to go for Rafale in MMRCA. So it's just old news brought up again because of the recent exercise.

 

[sancho]

Google translated article, form a French newspaper:

France continues its efforts to sell the Rafale in India
Le Point , June 25


3 squadrons of the Indian Air Force participated this week in the Garuda exercise at Istres, the fourth conduit in common with the French air force.This year, Singapore's F-16 aircraft were involved. At Istres, the Indians have deployed six Sukhoi SU-30, three Ilyushin Il 78 and one Ilyushin Il 76. Officially, nobody speaks about the exercice in the preparation for a huge contract for the Indian Air Force, although the competition is in everyone's mind. Called MMRCA (Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft), it was launched in 2008. It is estimated at 12 billion dollars for 126 aircraft, including 18 imported ready to fly, and 108 locally manufactured. While the Indian government typically requires that the arms contracts signed with foreign companies are translated into compensation agreements ensuring that 30% of the value of the contract is retroceded to local firms, this share increased to 50% under the contract MMRCA. France, Russia and the United States, all contestants, compete with kindness towards the Indian Air Force and organize with her many exercises. The Germans have recently announced their intention to hold similar exercises to push the EF Typhoon 2000. At this stage, industry invited to submit proposals are:
- GIE Rafale (France) : : Dassault-Aviation, associated with Safran and Thales (for respective shares of 37.5%, 25%, 37.5%) suggested the most advanced version of the only French fighter, the Rafale F3, always in search of its first export contract. In April 2009, the Rafale had been excluded from the bidding , before being returned. But the French plane is an outsider. In January 2008, while visiting India, Nicolas Sarkozy had said: " I'm also working on the plane that did not sell." He is expected again in New Delhi at the end of this year, especially for pushing this issue. The French president is also expected to discuss during his visit to the modernization of the fifty Mirage 2000-H already in possession of the Indian Air Force. This contract of $ 2 billion is subject to competition with the Israeli Elbit Systems industry.Thales currently seems favorite, but the final decision is not taken.
- Lockheed Martin (USA) offers the F-16IN Block 70 Super-Viper, APG-80 radar with AESA. Lockheed Martin dangled in India for the future, a purchase of its F-35 fighter, yet impractical due to technology transfer required by New Delhi what the U.S. are not giving to their current partners in this program (Australia, Canada, Denmark, Israel, Italy, Norway, Netherlands, United Kingdom, Singapore, Turkey).
- Boeing (USA): F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Block 2. The U.S. firm has just affected in India Bob Gower, who was previously vice president of the F/A-18 program, a sign of the importance it attaches to the contract.
- Saab JAS-39IN Gripen (Sweden).
- Mikoyan Gurevich Mig 35 (Russia).

The Indian Air Force transport is also, courted by the manufacturers. Last January, the Indian government had placed an order for six Airbus A330 MRTT tanker, before canceling the contract, considered too expensive. He is now preparing to buy for the same price ($ 1.5 billion) the same number of U.S. tanker aircraft KC-130J, a freighter versions of the C-130J Hercules from Lockheed Martin. India has already ordered these last years six C-130J Lockheed Martin for its special forces, $ 1.2 billion.


In addition, the Air Force has wanted to replace a twenty year old Ilyushin 76, and acquire a first time ten strategic airlift. She rejected the offer for the Airbus A400M, and turned to C-17 Globemaster III aircraft produced by Boeing, for a price ranging between 4 billion and 6 billion dollars, according to estimates. A second order for ten aircraft could follow. A first unit has just arrived on site for testing and evaluation by Indian pilots, but no contract is yet signed. New Delhi must still pass a formal order, which must be accepted by the Obama administration and by Congress.

The French seems to start pushing the Rafale in MMRCA now, MBDA partnerships on Maitri SAM and other MBDA weapon. Joint excersises this and next year and 2 visits of Sarkozy this year.
Also interesting that the upgrading for M2Ks is between Elbit and Thales and not between Elta (2032 radars, EWS of MKI), or Rafael (Python V missile, litening pod).
Btw, does anybody now about the rejection of A400M?

 

[jha]

We should go for Rafael, I feel so. The french experience in the past has been better.

not that good experience...SCORPENE is a good example of how everybody starts taking advantage of us ....

Evenafter Scorpene scandal i am all for RAFALE..however this offer does not surprise me...many lucrative offers will be pouring with the D-day coming near..now just wait for american counter offer...
who knows they may supply their own F-18 to us for stop gap measure..

If Rafale is a hot contender after the trials then we should not waste any more time and order these 40 plus the mirages which saudis and kuwait are selling..
126 Rafale + (51+ 72) Mirages ..enough to care of our loving neighbor...other one can be countered with russian stuff. feel free to disagree

 

[soaringphnx]

A 3-D thrust vector engine is offered for the F-16 IN by LM.

Is this true? Can anyone verify this?

 

[jha]

No..i dont think so...

F-16IN uses General Electric F110-132A engine with 143 kN full reheat thrust
And F110 does not possess 3-d thrust vector imo..

 

[flanker143]

not that good experience...SCORPENE is a good example of how everybody starts taking advantage of us ....

Evenafter Scorpene scandal i am all for RAFALE..however this offer does not surprise me...many lucrative offers will be pouring with the D-day coming near..now just wait for american counter offer...
who knows they may supply their own F-18 to us for stop gap measure..

If Rafale is a hot contender after the trials then we should not waste any more time and order these 40 plus the mirages which saudis and kuwait are selling..
126 Rafale + (51+ 72) Mirages ..enough to care of our loving neighbor...other one can be countered with russian stuff. feel free to disagree

he is talking about the experience with mirage 2000 jets.....which has been gud !!!

 

[Hulk]

This may also be a result of France realizing that India is not going to go with Rafael and hence trying to fill in the time gap between now and delivery of the MRCA planes. Hence the reference to the similarity in Mirage 2000-9 and Rafael from running costs perspective.

If not rafael which one do you think we are going for? I see nothing.

 

[Ammyy]

If not rafael which one do you think we are going for? I see nothing.

Euro fighter

Best in 4.5 Gen

 

[sancho]

No..i dont think so...

F-16IN uses General Electric F110-132A engine with 143 kN full reheat thrust
And F110 does not possess 3-d thrust vector imo..

They had an experimental version of the F 16 with TVC, which never entered serial production, but I never saw a report about it on offer for F16IN.

 

[sancho]

Some interesting news from the Swiss competition:

Rafale for Switzerland, the Dassault program
Avia News , June 23

The industrial partnership:

The industrials of the consortium Rafale International - consisting of Dassault Aviation, Snecma (Safran Group) and Thales - MBDA and their subcontractors are able to offer to Switzerland an industrial and scientific cooperation for the benefit of all cantons [counties] . The offer is affecting the whole range of suppliers ie: the military with the Rafale, but also the civilian sector which includes programs for Falcon business jets, civilian engines CFM56 and avionics for Aircraft and helicopters.

Some elements of the Rafale are already built in Switzerland (cockpit windows, fuel tank and more recently additional elements of the radar Thales RBE2).

The offer includes the outsourcing of many structural components, final assembly and maintenance in Switzerland for all of the Rafale program and also research and development. The manufacture of weapons ( MICA missiles) is proposed and also the development of the helmet-mounted sight GERFAUT, are also concerned systems such as the system of self-protection SPECTRA and FSO.

France assures to Switzerland the access to all technologies used in the aircraft including development tools, source code and the most sensitive data.

Optimized for Switzerland:

According to Dassault, the Rafale is the aircraft best suited to our country, because as a neighbor collaboration with both military and industry are promoted. In addition, the latest version (F3 +) tested in Switzerland fulfilled 95% of the specifications and offers the following possibilities:

* Flight capability in "supercruise" mode.
* Short take-off distance.
* Prolonged range and capacity allowing long surveillance missions.
* Fast implementation including by soldiers of militia.
* Easy integration into structures already built.

Multisensor system proposed:

The proposed version of the Rafale for our country is the most recent available, the standard F3+ (sometimes identified F4) This version is not yet in service, but was ordered by the Air Force and Navy end-December 2009 for 60 copies. The aircraft features:

* AESA radar Thales RBE-2AA.
* System autoprotection SPECTRA.
* New generation FSO (Front Sector Optronic).
* Last generation link 16 (MIDS).
* NCW Data fusion system (Net Centric Warfare).

In terms of propulsion, it is not excluded that a more powerful version of SNECMA M-88 will be available (to be confirmed).

Cooperation for military training:

Switzerland is already training regularly with the French Air Force (air refueling and EPERVIER exercice) in the case of acquisition of the Rafale by our country, our pilots would also have flight simulators as well as several sectors of flight training inside the French territory. Moreover, the air base 113 Saint-Dizier would be open to our pilots.

Comments:

Although not a favorite in early trials, the F3 + version has demonstrated its excellent capabilities and has perfectly fulfilled the specifications. In addition, Dassault people were able to conduct a remarkable campaign both on technical and interpersonal ground. The Rafale has today many assets that could very well help it to win the Swiss market!

Interesting that they offer even Swiss much ToT and coops in development, but even more interesting is that the even the new M88-4E (slightly improved M88-2) seems to have proved SC capabilities, although they are not confirmed yet. But if UAE funds the M88-3 with 90kN thrust, I think we can expect SC for sure too, one more feature that would be available for us.

 

[anathema]

Some interesting news from the Swiss competition:

Interesting that they offer even Swiss much ToT and coops in development, but even more interesting is that the even the new M88-4E (slightly improved M88-2) seems to have proved SC capabilities, although they are not confirmed yet. But if UAE funds the M88-3 with 90kN thrust, I think we can expect SC for sure too, one more feature that would be available for us.

If Saudi does go for Rafale with more thrust ...then i guess it will be similar to F16 IN...i mean they will charge some royalty for a new version of Rafale..i guess...