Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[JimmyJ]

As per think tanks India will eventually need 60 squadrons in its full strength so as to counter the influence of any major powers in the Indian sphere of influence region. That will be more than 1000 fighters. This will happen only after warplanes are produced more at home rather than just TOT.
telegraphindia.com/1050511/asp/opinion/story_4721233.asp

 

[Contrarian]

The desired strength by IAF is 60 Sqds but the sanctioned strength is 49.5 sqds.
Either way, let them arrest the falling strength right now first and then talk about increasing the numbers.

 

[ejaz007]

January 20, 2008 (by Randall) - As the deadline for India's biggest defence deal ever nears, Lockheed Martin unveiled a new upgraded version of its F-16 with "super cruise" capability and AESA radar.

Untill recently, the "super cruise" capability was available only on its fifth generation fighters, the F-22 Raptor and the new F-35 Lightning II. The capability gives the fighter an extended range, and allows it to break trough the sound barrier without the use of fuel guzzling after-burners.

Although supercruising is not being touted as one of the features of the new F-16, pilots flying the latest version say they often supercruise.

As the deadline for India's acquisition of 126 multi-role fighter aircrafts nears, Lockheed Martin has equipped the export version of the fighters, for the first time with Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radars, as reportedly specified in the Indian Air Force's US$10 billion tender. The AESA radars give the F-16 capability to simultaneously track and destroy ground and air threats.

The AESA radar had been cleared before by the US government for installation in 80 F-16s ordered by the United Arab Emirates. India is now confident that a similar green signal would be given in their case.

The deal, awaiting clearance from the Cabinet Committee on Security, would be the first direct military sale by a US company to India.

Speaking while unveiling the F-16IN, Lockheed Martin executive Chuck Artymovich said that the proposed fighter planes would also be armed with infra-red search and track pods as well as, counter-electronic warfare pods.

"The F-16IN is a complete new aircraft and totally caters to India's requirements and there could be no comparison with block 50 and 60 fighters, being made for other countries," he said.

Besides the F-16, other major contenders for the contract include Boeing's F-18 Hornet, the Russian MiG-35, the French Dassault Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon offered by a consortium of European aerospace manufacturers and the Swedish Saab Gripen.

At the ceremony, Lockheed Martin executives said they had met all requirements proposed in the Indian Request For Proposals (RfP) without giving out any details of the contents, citing confidentiality.

They said that the company was prepared to meet the RFP requirements of offsets, and would do so in the field of aeronautics or for co-development of an Indian Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV).
F-16IN proposal for India unveiled

 

[fatman17]

France offers incentives to secure Indian MRCA contract
Rahul Bedi JDW Correspondent - New Delhi

Key Points
Dassault has offered India 40 Rafales as a "short-term measure" ahead of a decision on a 126 multirole combat aircraft order for the IAF

French government policies are more conducive to smooth defence ties than those of the US, according to the Dassault chief executive


France has joined its US and Russian competitors in offering incentives to the Indian Air Force (IAF) in an attempt to secure its INR420 billion (USD10 billion) contract for 126 multirole combat aircraft (MRCA).

Dassault Chief Executive Charles Edelstenne, accompanying French President Nicholas Sarkozy on an official visit to India in late January, made India an "unsolicited" offer of 40 Rafale fighters, pending an "eventual decision" on the MRCA contract.

"If India is interested, we are ready to answer," Edelstenne said. "The offer stands."

The Rafale is competing for the MRCA contract with Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin's F-16 IN, the Russian Aircraft Corporations MiG-35 and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen. Proposals by all six competitors are due in by 3 March 2008.

Edelstenne said the offer of 40 Rafales was a "short-term measure. We have some experience with Indian delays, which is why Dassault has made the unsolicited offer," he declared, in a swipe at India's Ministry of Defence (MoD), which is well known for being slow to finalise contracts.

The MoD and the IAF declined to comment on Edelstenne's offer. However, a senior military officer said that if India did accept Dassault's offer, it would "automatically" clinch the MRCA contract in France's favour.

Edelstenne also said that French government policies were more conducive to smooth defence ties with India than those of the US.

"Our market is for countries that want to be independent of the US. The US policy [of imposing sanctions and blocking arms deals] is well known. We are a country which sells military equipment without any preconditions," he said.

 

[KENT]

Upcoming MRCA would be one among the F-16 or F-18 by looking at the collabration been made by Lokheed Martin as well as Boeing with Indian Industrial empire.

 

[ak56]

Upcoming MRCA would be one among the F-16 or F-18 by looking at the collabration been made by Lokheed Martin as well as Boeing with Indian Industrial empire.

Dumbo. F-18 is a naval version, dont confuse it to be upgrade of F-16. F-18 is basically designed for Aircraft Carriers.

 

[KENT]

Dumbo.

Don't let your tongue go wayward mate, you have already shown your credentiles with this particuler word and your knowledge with F-18.

F-18 is a naval version, dont confuse it to be upgrade of F-16. F-18 is basically designed for Aircraft Carriers.

Go mate, seat in nursery and get some lesson over types of fighter planes and their usage, even following airforces are using F-18s, have they possess Aircraft carriers?

Royal Australian Air Force
Canadian Forces
Kuwait Air Force
Royal Malaysian Air Force
Spanish Air Force
Swiss Air Force


If this is the case then why the heck Boeing is pitching hard with its F-18 for IAF MRCA? since it is an excellent ground attack fighter plane.

 

[su-47]

Dumbo.

dumbo? what are you? a kindergarden nerd?

F-18 is a naval version, dont confuse it to be upgrade of F-16. F-18 is basically designed for Aircraft Carriers.

F-18 is a multirole aircraft capable of operating on land or on aircraft carriers. just like the F-4 phantom. just coz USA uses it on carriers only doest make it incapable to operate from land. any plane capable of operating from a carrier can easily operate from land.

check up your facts before you call someone dumbo again and make a fool of yourself.

 

[Energon]

Here's a Brochure for the F-16IN.
I don't know much about the F-16s, can someone please comment upon how these fare against the block 52s (I don't mean in air to air combat, just in general).

Boeing however seems to be hot on Lockheed Martin's trails and have a lot more in terms of offsets to offer on other fronts:

Boeing has embarked on a series of important initiatives–including a joint-venture proposal–that strengthens its ties with India. In the process, the company is hoping to become what Boeing India’s president, Ian Thomas, described as “India’s preferred aerospace and defense partner and provider.” Boeing currently is competing with five of the world’s major fighter manufacturers for a 126-aircraft order from the Indian Air Force.

The manufacturer has been active in India for decades, and its escalating involvement was reflected in December 2003 by the establishment of a wholly owned subsidiary, Boeing International Corporation India Private Ltd. (BICIPL).

Growth in business opportunities has increased since, and continues to do so with a flurry of new initiatives announced this year.

In late January, Boeing appointed Naveed Hussain to be vice president of engineering and technology, reporting to both Boeing India and the company’s Office of Technology. Within days of his appointment, Hussain announced an agreement with the Indian Institute of Science and Indian technology companies Wipro and HCL Technologies.

The resulting Aerospace Network Research Consortium–a four-year collaborative effort led by Boeing to develop wireless and other network technologies for aerospace applications–is India’s first public-private aerospace research teaming.
On the commercial side, Boeing welcomed TAL Manufacturing Solutions into the 787 family in early February. The wholly owned subsidiary of Tata Motors will build floor beams for the Dreamliner at a new plant at Nagpur.

A week later–on February 14–Boeing and Tata Industries agreed on a plan to form a joint-venture company. The new entity is scheduled for establishment in June 2008, after which it will begin supplying components into Boeing’s defense aircraft, such as the F/A-18 Super Hornet, the P-8 maritime patrol aircraft and the CH-47 Chinook.

The establishment of manufacturing capabilities in the initial phase could later encompass more programs, including the Indian Air Force fighter deal, should Boeing be successful with its Super Hornet bid.

The GoI seems to be delaying this whole thing in order to milk as much as they possibly can out of these companies. It will be interesting to see who finally "lands the girl" so to speak.

 

[su-47]

i really doubt if India will pick F-16IN. Firstly F-16s are being retired in the USAF soon, and by the time we induct it, the USAF fleet would be about half-retired. MRCA aircraft are supposed to be a decisive force in the IAF, and we dont want to run ut of spares, like we did for the MiG-23 after the Russians retired the aircraft.

Secondly Pak pilots have flown the F-16 for 2 decades now. Even if the F-16s we get are more advanced, our pilots will be at a disadvantage against pak pilots who are better trained on that platform.

 

[JEFF]

i really doubt if India will pick F-16IN. Firstly F-16s are being retired in the USAF soon, and by the time we induct it, the USAF fleet would be about half-retired.

True, but remember GOI has specifally introduce 30% of offset system to arrest the discrepencies of spare parts, since spare parts problem will get nullified with outsourcing of spares from homgrown sources and F-16IN is not an ordinary system it is the aircraft which surpass all the capability of all other blocks of f-16s. Retirement from USAF doesn't make it anything less lethal, the point is that they are now in the process of inducting F-35 and F-22 and hence they are retiring this aircraft as soon as possible.

MRCA aircraft are supposed to be a decisive force in the IAF, and we dont want to run ut of spares, like we did for the MiG-23 after the Russians retired the aircraft.

But there are several factor that are needed to be considered apart from spare parts which will get balanced on account of offset clauses. The point is that we need decisive advantage not only in terms of lethality but also learning point of view as well like transfer of technology from Supercruising capability, AESA, Stealth elements etc.

Secondly Pak pilots have flown the F-16 for 2 decades now. Even if the F-16s we get are more advanced, our pilots will be at a disadvantage against pak pilots who are better trained on that platform.

Better trained in terms of what? Have they trained in BVR equipped F-16 or having a long range radar in the past?

In addition to it, F-16s that were flown by PAF was of the Earlier version, I guess it is F-16A's, not something like F-16 Block 60. It is now that they have received some Block 52s, but apart from airframe there are lot many qualities the F-16IN has possessed which even Block 60 isn't even privliage of possessing it like supercruise as well sensors.

 

[su-47]

but apart from airframe there are lot many qualities the F-16IN has possessed which even Block 60 isn't even privliage of possessing it like supercruise as well sensors.

all these sensors will make f-16IN very expensive. plus we'll have to build infrastructure to house it. if we are going to spend that much money, might as well get the rafale or the eurofighter. both will get AESA soon. eurofighter can supercruise, and since we have infrastructure for mirage 2000, rafale will be easy to integrate. also, europeans are more reliable suppliers than US, who can pull the plug on us, like they did to pakistan.

 

[con]

In addition to it, F-16s that were flown by PAF was of the Earlier version, I guess it is F-16A's, not something like F-16 Block 60. It is now that they have received some Block 52s, but apart from airframe there are lot many qualities the F-16IN has possessed which even Block 60 isn't even privliage of possessing it like supercruise as well sensors.

F-16IN or F-16xx does not, will never super cruise. This notation came in being when as usual, idiot reporters printed that F-16 has ability to supercruise,when the LM guys just answered a question over supercruise, that it MAY BE able to, in a CLEAN CONFIGURATION.

 

[su-47]

MRCa might have been started as a stop-gap measure, but now i think it is going to form the creme-de la creme of IAF, until PAKFA (Sukhoi T-50) is inducted. As such, the MRCA aircraft should be top of the line, and offer capabilities beyond what is available to us right now. in other words, it should be better than our current best, the Su-30MKI. it should be an aircraft that would be in service till atleast 2040, coz the induction of MRCA aircraft will be done during the next decade and the aircraft should be in serivice atleast for 25 years, or it will be a waste of money. this means that the aircraft should be one that would undergo many upgrades during its lifetime.

Our neighbour, China, is currently modernising its ancient fleet of aircraft at a very hectic pace. Soon they will have an airforce that is not just based on quantity, but also quality. if we are to match them or beat them in the air, we'll need high quality aircraft that they wont have access to. the aircraft we choose should be better than anything china has, or will have, in the coming years.

 

[JEFF]

all these sensors will make f-16IN very expensive

Offcourse, it will but the thing is that when we can pure in $1 Billion for just 6 C-130 Hercules just on the pretext of better lifting capability rather then opting from IL-76 with greater speed and better defensive capability at much low cost and in huge number, then I don't think we would have any problem in spending another billion for procuring those F-16 sensors.

plus we'll have to build infrastructure to house it.

During the inductions of MKI we never made much noise about infrastructure problem, rather we improved MKI into potent beast then I don't think the goodies offering by F-16IN would not deter us to set another all new infrastrutre.

if we are going to spend that much money, might as well get the rafale or the eurofighter. both will get AESA soon. eurofighter can supercruise, and since we have infrastructure for mirage 2000, rafale will be easy to integrate.

But Su-47 don't you think, since we have infrastructure for Mirage only to handle its servicing activity and Logistics Maintenance, since there is a huge difference between having an infrastructure for Maintenance and Licence production. On the top of that, Eurofighter, less said about it would be much more better, Do you seriously think it would afford to IAF? instead of forking extra sum why don't we go straight away for more and more MKI and we have infrastructure for it as well, whereas for eurofighter we will have to spend extra bucks to set its infrasture for licence production. In addition, Eurofighter will not going to offer us deep tech transfer which is the key object of MRCA unlike MIG-35. Regarding supercruising of Eurofighter, I heard it is only for limited endurance and it's AESA still about to get operational.

also, europeans are more reliable suppliers than US,

But at what cost! since they are not going to provide us with deep technology transfer that we need to strenghten the base of our aviation industry and whatever they are showing some superficial graciousness by providing us Eurofighter and Rafale but at higher cost.

who can pull the plug on us, like they did to pakistan.

There is a huge difference between India and Pakistan, Since pakistan cannot get the weapons from Russian because of INdia and from european because of highter cost and hence they left with only two alternative solution in the form of China and US in the form of F-16 and hence they get rattled with arms embargo from US and lack of modern technology from chinese. In case of India, our legacy speaks for itself and hence we never opt for US weapons no matter how superior they are, and hence we are asking for deep TOT for both F-16 and F-18 which US unlikely to provide us.