Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Abingdonboy]

You Forget Close to 100% Su-30MKI is Made in India. So if Rafale has to serve in large numbers, that is what we are looking at. I would not bet on it.

For all the hype that is made about the MKI being made in India I can assure you there has been actually very little investment made in the Indian support ecosystem for the MKI. Until very recently India was still importing high grade steel for the mki's body and engine parts.

Under the IGA for the Rafale everything is covered from the exacting offset obligations to the availability Dassualt MUST provide India for the Rafale fleet. Just think about the latter part, only in 2016 (20 years later) has India entered into an agreement with Sukhoi to assure the IAF 75% availability for their MKIs(by the way, India will have to pay extra for this privilege) , the Rafale fleet will have this from day ONE (costs included in this contract).

The MKI agreements were far less exhaustive and left plenty of room for Russia to mess with India.

India has at least learnt a lot from past failings and has tightened its clauses and improved its contract negotiation skills/placed more emphasis on this. Gone is the "chalta hai" attitude.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Just had my hands full with a new puppy for the last few days bro that's all



The more I think about the less likely another LFW (outside of the LCA) seems.

1) with the tech/help that is coming from the French thanks to the Rafale deal there will be the scope within India to significantly improve the LCA to make it into a match for any other LWF on the market (and significantly cheaper too).
2) the IN is actually a significant backer of the LCA project they won't even entertain another LFW; the F-16 has no naval variant and the Sea Gripen is a pipe dream whereas the LCA has proven (to a degree) it's carrier credentials and is continuing down this road.

The issue is production now, if HAL pulls its finger out there won't be a problem with the IAF's strength going foreword. Still expecting the NDA to do something out of the box here (second line with the private sector ?).

Thats a big challenge bro..I had said this yesterday

I believe there is an article also out in matrubhumi by tarmak writer AK in a similar line of thought but he did spin it with teh saying SP3 is doing taxi runs and so many new modification has happened. The SP-3 comes with more value additions with around 340 pipelines and 50 panels now achieving ICY or interchangeability standards. (ICY ensures quick replacement of a component without any design changes affecting operational performance.) (covered here ;https://defence.pk/threads/tejas-sp-3-ready-for-maiden-flight.450973 - will go to sticky soon)

This is why its a issue. Rafale can get you teh MIC to deliver the LCA better iterations surely. For example the MIC level and skill set improvement directly benefits the eco system and enables a much better component level capability.

But if HAl does not produce only Tejas in good numbers or address productivity issues, its beyond a doubt that a new LWF will come into the MII line too. In simple words, the benefits wont be reaped by LCA but may be a another fighter like Gripen E and F16 or may be LSA. This is my worry. Ultimately only AMCA benefits from the MIC ecosystem creation under such a circumstances.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Pic i have hit the mark with almost good precision.

Yes it's amazing, sometimes in the last days I had the concern that perhaps you and PDF were a source for Indian newspaper and that explain the correlation of informations. But now your figures are validated by more official sources! Congratulations!!!
I gave the link to janes with an extract, because there is also an interesting description of the Rafale customisation.

 

[GuardianRED]

Honestly Hope the IAF doesn't go for a second LFW, as it will another type , which is sorry to say is crazy. Continue and support the LCA and its variants, though it will be slow going, i'm sure it will be fruitful in the long run.

Today Is a Good day for the IAF with the inking of the Deal. BUT a sad one for this thread (which like the Tejas Thread once they were inducted) will only be active one in a while when there is some news or report .

What is next that we can look forward to?

 

[Nilgiri]

Thats a big challenge bro..I had said this yesterday

View attachment 337319

I believe there is an article also out in matrubhumi by tarmak writer AK in a similar line of thought but he did spin it with teh saying SP3 is doing taxi runs and so many new modification has happened. The SP-3 comes with more value additions with around 340 pipelines and 50 panels now achieving ICY or interchangeability standards. (ICY ensures quick replacement of a component without any design changes affecting operational performance.) (covered here ;https://defence.pk/threads/tejas-sp-3-ready-for-maiden-flight.450973 - will go to sticky soon)

This is why its a issue. Rafale can get you teh MIC to deliver the LCA better iterations surely. For example the MIC level and skill set improvement directly benefits the eco system and enables a much better component level capability.

But if HAl does not produce only Tejas in good numbers or address productivity issues, its beyond a doubt that a new LWF will come into the MII line too. In simple words, the benefits wont be reaped by LCA but may be a another fighter like Gripen E and F16 or may be LSA. This is my worry. Ultimately only AMCA benefits from the MIC ecosystem creation under such a circumstances.

MIC = Military industrial complex?

 

[randomradio]

There is no real value to that. That time can change as Dassault and the partners adapt.
The incompressible time is the limit when you activate all people and machines needed
on a 24H clock until the fighter rolls out.
And that is well below 2+ years, trust me ... even if I'm not Pic!

Maybe new technologies can be introduced in the Indian line for faster production.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

MIC = Military industrial complex?

Yes

Yes it's amazing, sometimes in the last days I had the concern that perhaps you and PDF were a source for Indian newspaper and that explain the correlation of informations. But now your figures are validated by more official sources! Congratulations!!!
I gave the link to janes with an extract, because there is also an interesting description of the Rafale customisation.

Indeed i did point to one newspaper source only to have a go as i said earlier in ID F.. And i specfically told them to find about MII plans. Bcz its one of the closely guarded things but enough hints are there. Rest folks among the available one i know surely FB pages lifted many things from here but stuck to weapons at Euro 2 Bn. What was very good is ppl went around to cross check the pointers.

Now interestingly Vishnu Som and Ajai Shukla claimed there is no follow on order. Shiv Aroor pointed Meteor missile and tweeted a pic with the caption Meteor is with EF, Rafale and Gripen. Do you get the hint @Picdelamirand-oil . Its a bit sad that even now attempts are being made and in future it will intensify till officially things are out in public.

When you look at Eric Trappier's smile and i am sure you would know it better as he was your intern, you can see how hard it is for him to remain calm and control and say its just the first batch and not scream on top of his voice and say we got the MII order in bag as well. The expectation from DA is pretty huge and in all probability we will see a big market for new falcon jets with business houses as well. Thales chief's comments supports that view too. This should make ppl realise the big picture. But then you know India and its gullible masses.

Heck i am sure your own French side wont agree to the most optimistic 300 to moderate 225-180 to lower side 90+36=126 kind of numbers and feel its utter gospel truth. But you knw for sure, without a big order how do you suppose the offset also binding 74% value of local parts procured from MIC and 26% for TOT can be fulfilled. Why would DA and whole group do that unless they know and as Trappier said its first batch of orders and that this contract could be first of many in Europe1.fr posted before

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Maybe new technologies can be introduced in the Indian line for faster production.

Fnally I've said India will have to wait 3 years for the first plane , except if production started already, and you have to wait 3 years. All the rumors on a fast delivery were false or cancelled by the delay and the normal time apply. And I think that we will stay at 2 Rafale by month until the MII is signed.

 

[Nilgiri]

@ranjeet you can ogle a little bit for this

Its interesting that the CEO said that some may be assembled in some way in India as part of the offset clause. (4.50)

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

@PARIKRAMA I would like India and France to design and develop together AMCA - Futur French fighter. The only thing we miss is a market, you will be a big market and we can speed up availability of needed technologies for such a project. Win win situation.

 

[randomradio]

Fnally I've said India will have to wait 3 years for the first plane , except if production started already, and you have to wait 3 years. All the rumors on a fast delivery were false or cancelled by the delay and the normal time apply. And I think that we will stay at 2 Rafale by month until the MII is signed.

Yeah, it appears so. The 36 month delivery was for the F3+.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Picdelamirand-oil
By the towed decoy, does it mean LEA (leurre électromagnétique actif)

As part of the aforementioned phased approach to improve the Incas kit Rafale French defense procurement agency began a research program on thrown rf trap, which was first introduced at the Paris Air Show in 2013. New radiofrequency trap developed by MBDA, was designated LEA (leurre electromagnetique actif). "The air vehicle" is currently being tested, and the company Thales, is expected to take part in this project, although it is not presented for official confirmation.

roughly translated
The first experiments lures active electromagnetic (also called "jammers dumped ") took place in France in the middle of the decade 1990 in the context of developments exploratory led by Matra Défense & Thomson-CSF one hand and
Dassault Electronics, on the other hand, under the aegis of the DGA. It was to equip aircraft weapons capacity
to lure active RF threats or semi-active sophisticated, creating an angular interference. Although the results of these exploratory developments have been very successful, they have unfortunately not been followed at the time by a product of industrialization. Prototype LEA Th-CSF Matra Défense 90 (MBDA Photo) The PEA INCAS DGA, running by MBDA
France and Thales uses the concepts of the time, because the operational need still exists, but taking advantage of
latest technological advances, especially in the areas of technology and components DRFM MMIC.
We bet that this time will be at the complete success appointments with a start of production. The work carried out as part of INCA could possibly also serve a different need: the decoy IR missiles discrimination capability kinematics, the LEA vehicle and the means ejection may become common to both applications. History will tell whether this synergy will materialize!

 

[Taygibay]

Maybe new technologies can be introduced in the Indian line for faster production.

That's highly unlikely but there's a fix.
Whatever the activity of the Indian line, it can be built for a bigger output
than the Mérignac line. Providers back in France will adapt on their own.

Going back to my car analogy, you could build a 7 seats monospace SUV.
With a doubled maximum standard capacity, it could churn out 6 Rafales a year.

Good evening, Tay.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA I would like India and France to design and develop together AMCA - Futur French fighter. The only thing we miss is a market, you will be a big market and we can speed up availability of needed technologies for such a project. Win win situation.

That is what i have always recommend to the MOD/GOI. In fact i have openly advocated it here as well. USe the Dassault group expertise and make the AMCA. I dont believe such a strategic cooperation is possible with USA and nor i think FGFA will enable us almost all tech as we need. the credible alternative is max from France and limited from Israel and Russia. Thats the basic abstractive idea.

 

[randomradio]

@PARIKRAMA I would like India and France to design and develop together AMCA - Futur French fighter. The only thing we miss is a market, you will be a big market and we can speed up availability of needed technologies for such a project. Win win situation.

ADA won't agree. They will accept Dassault as a design consultant, but full indigenization is a priority. The plan has already been developed.

What's more realistic is a Rafale replacement JV, with hypersonic speed, near space capability etc. This requirement will come up in 5 years, after the completion of the scramjet propulsion tech. DRDO's already completed the feasibility study of this class of technology a few years ago. So something that can be inducted around 2035.

Otoh, AMCA is a VLO version of Rafale, with shaping and IWBs, it won't be a huge step up as a future French fighter.

That's highly unlikely but there's a fix.
Whatever the activity of the Indian line, it can be built for a bigger output
than the Mérignac line. Providers back in France will adapt on their own.

Going back to my car analogy, you could build a 7 seats monospace SUV.
With a doubled maximum standard capacity, it could churn out 6 Rafales a year.

Good evening, Tay.

Yeah, I pointed that out long ago and you attacked me for it. Good to know you are on board too.

@Picdelamirand-oil
By the towed decoy, does it mean LEA (leurre électromagnétique actif)

As part of the aforementioned phased approach to improve the Incas kit Rafale French defense procurement agency began a research program on thrown rf trap, which was first introduced at the Paris Air Show in 2013. New radiofrequency trap developed by MBDA, was designated LEA (leurre electromagnetique actif). "The air vehicle" is currently being tested, and the company Thales, is expected to take part in this project, although it is not presented for official confirmation.


View attachment 337344

roughly translated
The first experiments lures active electromagnetic (also called "jammers dumped ") took place in France in the middle of the decade 1990 in the context of developments exploratory led by Matra Défense & Thomson-CSF one hand and
Dassault Electronics, on the other hand, under the aegis of the DGA. It was to equip aircraft weapons capacity
to lure active RF threats or semi-active sophisticated, creating an angular interference. Although the results of these exploratory developments have been very successful, they have unfortunately not been followed at the time by a product of industrialization. Prototype LEA Th-CSF Matra Défense 90 (MBDA Photo) The PEA INCAS DGA, running by MBDA
France and Thales uses the concepts of the time, because the operational need still exists, but taking advantage of
latest technological advances, especially in the areas of technology and components DRFM MMIC.
We bet that this time will be at the complete success appointments with a start of production. The work carried out as part of INCA could possibly also serve a different need: the decoy IR missiles discrimination capability kinematics, the LEA vehicle and the means ejection may become common to both applications. History will tell whether this synergy will materialize!


View attachment 337345

This is not a towed decoy, it is ejected from the aircraft like chaff.