Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[egodoc222]

I was just watching Al-Jazeera. Bharat Karnad was going on & on about missed opportunities and what not. He spoke about 4.75 gen Su-35.

Who is he?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

This situation is considered transient. A new IRST has to be developped and it seems to be planed with SAMTEL:
http://indiastrategic.in/topstories1447_Samtel_to_supply_IRST.htm

This IRST from SAMTEL/THALES will replace the Sagem one using new technologies.
Sofradir: the best imaging technologies that cover the whole IR spectrum.
In 2013, Sofradir acquired InSb, QWIP and InGaAs technologies from its shareholders Sagem and Thales, which in addition to its flagship MCT technology, means that Sofradir can offer customers the best IR technology most adapted to an application.

 

[Abingdonboy]

----------------------------------

It's was a long sweat and thirst,

Finally 36 numbers isn't close to quench any thirst .

Don't worry about it. Now this 36 deal has been clinched there will be a pivot to MII for at least another 150 units (including IN orders). One can already see there has been a shift in the media and MII is actually being talked about (when as far everyone else was concerned no such thing existed, 36 was the sum total).

India isn't paying 1.5 BN euros for Indian specific upgrades to induct just 36 or 54 jets. This cost ensures hundreds of units.


Remember that 20 years ago the MKI order stood at 40, today there are more than 300 in service or on order (and counting). The Rafale is going to face a similar fate EXCEPT it may find even greater success as;

1) it is demanded by both the IN and IAF
2) will not suffer any of the operational deficiencies as the MKI (from the very outset Dassualt will be mandated to offer at least 75% availability at any time)
3) has FAR lower life cycle costs than the MKI
4) will be inducted at a time when the Indian defence budget is set to expand rapidly (it will be touching $120 BN/year by 2025).

 

[VivasvatManu]

Don't worry about it. Now this 36 deal has been clinched there will be a pivot to MII for at least another 150 units (including IN orders). One can already see there has been a shift in the media and MII is actually being talked about (when as far everyone else was concerned no us thing existed, 36 was the sum total).

India isn't paying 1.5 euros for Indian specific upgrades to induct just 36 or 54 jets. This cost ensures hundreds of units.


Remember that 20 years ago the MKI was order stood at 40, today there are more than 300 in service or on order (and counting). The Rafale is going to face a similar fare EXCEPT it may find even greater success as;

1) it is demanded by both the IN and IAF
2) will not suffer any of the operational deficiencies as the MKI (from the very outset Dassualt will be mandated to offer at least 75% availability at any time)
3) has FAR lower life cycle costs than the MKI
4) will be inducted at a time when the Indian defence budget is set to expand rapidly (it will be touching $120 BN/year by 2025).

You Forget Close to 100% Su-30MKI is Made in India. So if Rafale has to serve in large numbers, that is what we are looking at. I would not bet on it.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Congratulations to the indians and dassault !​

View attachment 337148

Finally!!​

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@GuardianRED @ni8mare @dadeechi @randomradio @Nilgiri @SR-91 @Sri @R!CK @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @SrNair @anant_s @Armani @kmc_chacko @nair @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @mirage @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back @BON PLAN @ranjeet @surya kiran etc!

frenchy finally !!!!!!! they've done it. now comes the hard part.......the really hard part, local production.

 

[PDF]

Congratulations! A very dangerous development for our air force. This deal took its time yet created trouble for us. I hope you get the targeted numbers achieved as I want to see how we respond to these developments.

 

[SrNair]

Congratulations to the indians and dassault !​

View attachment 337148

Finally!!​

View attachment 337147​

@GuardianRED @ni8mare @dadeechi @randomradio @Nilgiri @SR-91 @Sri @R!CK @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @SrNair @anant_s @Armani @kmc_chacko @nair @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @mirage @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back @BON PLAN @ranjeet @surya kiran etc!

Thank you ,France .Even after all these hectic
negotiations you showed patience and willingness to do business with us .
Finally a good outcome after decade of procurment process.

 

[[Bregs]]

Thank you ,France .Even after all these hectic
negotiations you showed patience and willingness to do business with us .
Finally a good outcome after decade of procurment process.

well bro the positive and common strategic interests France found with India started moving in trustful direction when they refused to sanction India after Nuke tests way back in 1998 and later there help in kargil war. French can take place of Russia not US as India's biggest arms suppliers and co producers without risk of sanctions. Submarines, Aircraft career, and many war systems which have been domain of Russia till now can be slowly replaced now by France

 

[SrNair]

well bro the positive and common strategic interests France found with India started moving in trustful direction when they refused to sanction India after Nuke tests way back in 1998 and later there help in kargil war. French can take place of Russia not US as India's biggest arms suppliers and co producers without risk of sanctions. Submarines, Aircraft career, and many war systems which have been domain of Russia till now can be slowly replaced now by France

US is a Superpower .So whatever it is ,you wont get much concession from them.Russians dont have money to maintain their. technological advancement for now.Nor we fund it altogether ,sincecwe need to nurture our own industry.
France is almost like us ,Always suspicious towards the motives of US even if they are in NATO.Also has some socialist lineage.
Such a unique character enable them to support us during 1998.
Rafale will become our mainstay medium role fighter for near future until we complete ourv AMCA project.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Thales Chief Patrick Caine in a interview with Shereen Bhan show at 9 pm said the following

• For Thales, its a strategic partnership with India not a deal
• The scope involves cutting edge technology for the Rafales
• They are going to invest a lot under MII in Indian companies to build up the chain
• TOT is part of contracted terms and possibilities.

+++
Basically the context of the above statement is very important as the deal includes

• 50% offset clause under which Thales and Dassault Group has to invest in India
• The investment is to create a Indian MIC ecosystem to support and build Rafales in India
• The offset amounts to Rs29K crores
• The deal specifies that out of Rs 29K crores
  • 74 % of this amount or Rs 21460 Crores or approx Euro 2.9 Bn is via local manufacturing of components for meeting this order
  • It is mandatory to do sourcing of this much amount from local Indian MIC
  • Also included is a 26% of this amount to share the TOT aspect with local vendors with whom they will have a partnership

Now from the Thales website press release
Thales provides a number of state-of-the-art equipment and systems aboard the Rafale. They include the RBE2 AESA radar, the Spectra electronic warfare system, optronics, the communication navigation and identification system (CNI), the majority of the cockpit display systems, power generation systems and a logistics support component.
This contract will create hundreds of jobs on Thales manufacturing sites, in particular at Elancourt, Bordeaux, Brest and Etrelles, as well as for numerous partners and sub-contractors.

With a presence in India since 1953, Thales currently employs over 300 people at its Indian branch. The Thales India headquarters is located in New Delhi, and it has other operational offices and sites at Hyderabad, Bangalore, Chennai and Mumbai. Thales plays an essential role in India's growth, by sharing its technology and its expertise on the defense, transportation and aerospace markets. Thales' strategy of developing its industrial presence in India is in line with the Indian Government's "Make in India" policy. Thales has formed several cooperative partnerships with public and private sector industries. Thales has been closely associated with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for more than 50 years and has formed joint ventures with Samtel, Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) and L&T Technology Services.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/defence/press-release/indian-air-force-signs-36-rafale


@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

 

[Centurion2016]

Most posters on here will not appreciate the real win win for india with Rafale

They see the COST and nos only
Thry have no concept of TOT or all the OFFSET clauses which will benefit india with French sharing technology and investing billions back into indian economy.

Thry just don't undetrstand business side of this deal and the future potential

 

[ashok321]

NEW DELHI: With the deal for 36 Rafalejets in kitty, Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier today said the French company is game for the 'Make in India' initiative and open to manufacturing the fighter aircraft in India if the plane is shortlisted for a bigger order.

RELATED VIDEO

Rafale jets delivery will start in 36 months: Dassault Aviation CEO


He said that with the Indian contract going through, the company feels that more international orders of the plane, capable of carrying nuclear weapons, will come in.

"It is 36 at the moment. We feel that we can create a strong industrial partnership in India. We know very well the large number of aircraft that the IAF needs," Trappier said in an interview to PTI here.

He said that Dassault Aviation, manufacturer of the Rafale jets, is committed to the Make in India initiative.

"Yes, of course. We will see how we can carry forward with the 'Make in India' initiative. We are open to manufacturing Rafales in India," Trappier said when asked if the French firm was willing to manufacture the fighter aircraft in India if the plane was shortlisted for a bigger order.

The CEO said the company will work with the IAF and the government to see how they can meet India's needs.

He said the focus was to build an industrial partnership in India for Rafale jets and the 50 per cent offset clause will be of help.

Defence sources have made it clear that the deal for 36 Rafale jets does not come with an option clause. This means that more orders will come only through fresh talks.
India had originally wanted 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft for which Rafale was shortlisted.

However, due to the delay over cost and other issues, the Narendra Modi government decided to go for 36 Rafale jets in fly away condition.

With India reducing the number, a multi-billion dollar aircraft contract is still in play.

This has led to fresh pitches from those who lost out on the first deal including Boeing, Saab and Lockheed Martin.

The sources have said India is looking at shortlisting one more aircraft, besides Tejas, to be manufactured domestically.

Dassault Aviation hopes that Rafale, a twin-jet fighter aircraft able to operate from both an aircraft carrier and a shore base, makes the cut.

The fully versatile Rafale is able to carry out all combat aviation missions -- air defence, interception, ground support, in-depth strikes, reconnaissance, anti-ship strikes and nuclear deterrence.

Rafale entered service with the French Navy in 2004 and with the French Air Force in 2006. In 2015, Egypt and Qatar ordered 24 Rafales each. As of June 30 this year, 152 Rafale aircraft had been delivered.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...lt-ceo-eric-trappier/articleshow/54485007.cms

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

The sources have said India is looking at shortlisting one more aircraft, besides Tejas, to be manufactured domestically.

Grippen?

 

[BON PLAN]

Meteor is the game changer here.It reversed PAF's one remaining advantage that f-16 AMRAAMs had ,but those will now be outclassed by meteor which is just a new gen missile with massive range.Nor can PAF equalize this advantage anytime soon because there is no comparable missile available on the market ,and nothing the chinese have to offer can match it.Only latest AIM-120D would be a an equal,and thats off limits.

AIM120 D remain a classical booster missile.

The same weight class Meteor don't have to embark oxydizer (it uses air for that), so Meteor range will always be Superior.

The "problem" is that MBDA claim Meteor is a 100km range missile, but in fact it's far better.

For same Pk, the Meteor range is much better than AIM120 (even "D") or K77.

Are you sure. I think PAF already have it.

AIM120D is not ready, so not in the P**i arsenal.

 

[Taygibay]

Are you sure. I think PAF already have it.

PAF has AIM C-5s. The most modern export version is the C-7.
As NorgeStronk pointed out, no one is slated to receive the D for now but America.
Over time it could seep to top NATO or Pacific partners.

France doesn't really have the Capacity to produce that many in a few years

LOL Cute!

Dassault has capacity to manufacture 33 Rafales/year but due to low orders they are going slow to keep the production running. @Taygibay can explain it better.

OKAY so for good, one last time, the laydown :

The production line was designed for 3 aircrafts per month.*
In France, there's a vacation month for all so 33, not 36, per annum.

Until exports came, the line was at its lowest setting of 1/month,
due to the lack of national orders themselves due to budget equilibrium.
Dassault had that 1 per month guaranteed as the lower limit knowing the politicos.

At the 1 per month rhythm, a Rafale takes 3 years to follow/cross that prod line.
Dassault has already begun the ramp-up to 1.8 Acs/month so that this rate is available
later and it could speed up more. At 2 ACs per month, the timeline drops to 2 1/2 years.

The line was not hiked for Egypt & Qatar for different reasons.
Egypt had an immediacy to it so Fr planes on the prod line were diverted to it.
No need to hike the rate as French govt wanted to buy less per year!
In reverse, Qatar is in for the long run and allows ample lead time.
Theirs can begin production now as their standard is the planned F3-R :
A- their systems won't be added for a year and a half to 2 years
& B- the Fr Govt lets the slots go by until ready for the 2018 F3-R.

India gets 1 a month starting about 18 months from first check in
because it takes 18 months for the line to ramp-up by one monthly aircraft.
All are finished in 39 months so 57 months total, not five years from now.

That's your worst case scenario.
It gets faster with any plane that others don't take on the line.

Side note : if check and MII accord arrive on signing day between Modi and Hollande,
the partial assembly line could be up by then.
​

Towed decoy ? IRST or OSF ?
@Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay

Towed decoy was researched for F3_R. OSF has flavours so forgetting the original, it would
be as Pic said already either OSF-IT or a local Samtel-Thales JV product.
The first is not my preferred choice but has advantages. I prefer simpler decoys and wouldn't
want to drag a giant fishing lure to supersonic if it won't get back in its lodging.
The second was huh, say compulsory! I hope you can go Indo-French.

So now we know the real price of the Stand alone Rafale.

Single seat Rafale is 91.07 Million Euro or 101.8 (~102)Million USD.

Twin seat Rafale is 94 million Euro i.e. 105 Million USD. 1

That would be the stand alone price for your Rafales. So basic fly-away,
+ special indian systems & weapons integration parts like rail launchers
or a local IRST and that HMDS or any Israeli gadgets and so on. OSF?
That's a line replaceable optional piece of kit not in basic fly-away but on
the Indian Rafales so add its unitary price and so on.


And later good people, Tay.

* It's like your passenger car that has 3 free seats when you go to work in the morning.
You can bring along one or two or three friends. 3 seats/ACs is the capacity of car or line
and rate is how many of these are occupied/being built. It can be idle too if all are empty.