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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Yes, if the engines are soft rated ( their values tested by stages of use ).
On a fighter, this shouldn't be the case. Ratings are real use established.
And again, the altitude is less than 12 000 m.

But you are right that it requires mentally strong people or a high rotation rate.
Lukla is the name of the most difficult airfield.

Good day, Tay.
 
airfield doesn't need a runway that long.

In high altitude you need longer. TAR has average 4000 m length airfields.

The more practical and alternate appreciation is that they can indeed take off with maximal load for a strike. There is no limitation.

Leh did not have the problem for Su-30 if I recall correctly. Even if they have to carry less fuel, a pre-positioned refueller takes care of it. Hence my looking for a clarification because this is a decade and a half back thought process.

Heck. Mi-17V5 carried 24 with 20 kg load per individual at 19000 ft without a bother over the crew of 4.


Thanks for the tickle. This gave a moment of smile ..... cry wolf over
 
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Sorry all.
Going off topic but ...

Condemnation ? What does it mean ?

I propose India makes a law to only buy weapons from those who make a law in their nation to not to sell a single bullet to our neighbour.

This will do more in forcing them to reduce anti India terrorists support.

When a nation like USA , or Germany or France first call restraint from India ( USA went as far as to say it would condemn Indian action in Self Defence ) and then condemn terrorism without naming the terrorist supporters , it means " ZERO ".

I say better fcuk off with your condemnation.


Like buy the sympathy and favour through spending in weapons and money but not by doing the right thing in first place.

There is a saying:

Business is business and cup of tea is cup of tea.

However, many of nations (if) aren't selling us is without the concerns of India and there are many other factors involved. Don't worry.
 
@all members from France

I sincerely thank you and your country for the support you have given our country in this time of crisis as we jointly face the threat of terror. Your statement, hard hitting and truly emphasising the support of people of France for India, has further underscored the cherished partnership and friendship between our two countries.

Thank you once again


We condemned on Sunday the terrible attack carried out in Uri yesterday.

After that of Pathankot earlier this year, this attack reminds us that India, like France, is a victim of terrorism. More than ever before, we remain at the side of our strategic partner, India, for fighting this scourge.

As underscored by the President of the French Republic during his India visit in January this year, all countries must effectively combat terrorism emanating from their territory or from territories under their control. We call for decisive action to be taken, in accordance with international law, against the terrorist groups targeting India,
particularly the Lashkar-eTaiba, the Jaish-e-Mohammed, and the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen.

Nothing can justify terrorism, which must be combatted everywhere with the same determination.


http://www.ambafrance-in.org/Terrorist-attack-in-India

Sorry to say that but that is clearly off-topic and see the results @hellfire
 
I can confirm - directly from CCS folks

DEAL CLEARED BY CCS, SIGN OFF ON 23RD - FRIDAY

Media outlets will report soon...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others


+++++
Indian cabinet approves purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets-source
by Reuters
Wednesday, 21 September 2016 14:44 GMT

NEW DELHI, Sept 21 (Reuters) - India's cabinet cleared the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation on Wednesday, paving the way for signing a deal that Prime Minister Narendra Modi is betting on to modernise the air force, a government source told Reuters.

The value of the deal, which had been repeatedly held up as the two sides haggled over financial terms, was not immediately available.

Under the deal, India will get 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition. India's fighter aircraft fleet, comprising Russian, British and French planes, is down to 33 squadrons as against the air force's requirement of 45 to counter a "two-front collusive threat" from Pakistan and China.

The two countries will sign the final deal on Friday, the source, who did not wish to be named as he is not authorised to speak to the media, said. (Reporting by Nigam Prusty; Editing by Malini Menon)

http://news.trust.org/item/20160921144633-dvdse/
 
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  1. Livefist ‏@livefist 3m3 minutes agoNoida, India
    With India's #RafaleDeal cleared, helps to revisit the very interesting journey the deal has had over 10 years.

    Cs4vzoIUkAA7VQT.jpg

  2. Livefist ‏@livefist 15m15 minutes agoNoida, India
  3. India's Cabinet, the final gate-keeper, cleared India's #RafaleDeal today. After years in doubt, big win for @Dassault_OnAir & France.


  4. Livefist ‏@livefist 16m16 minutes agoNoida, India
    Yes, India's #RafaleDeal has been cleared today. €7.87 billion contract to be signed on September 23 in Delhi.

    Cs4spwWVUAIgU3o.jpg

    33 retweets23 likes
  5. Livefist ‏@livefist 26m26 minutes agoNoida, India
    BREAKING: Indian approves deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets, reports @ReutersIndia.


How Indian Negotiators Brought Down The Price Of Rafale Jets
September 21, 2016; By: Nitin A Gokhale
Email
Rafale-DefenseWorld.net_.jpg

Image Courtesy: DefenceWorld.Net

How Indian Negotiators Brought Down The Price Of Rafale Jets

If India has not bought a single piece of artillery for over 28 years, the story is as dismal for the fleet of combat jets. No new fighter planes have been procured by the Indian Air Force (IAF) since the beginning of this century. That long wait for a new fighter plane to replace the ageing Mig-21s and beef up the depleting combat fleet, about to get over on Friday with India and France set to sign a 7.878 billion Euros contract with Dassault Aviation to supply 36 Rafale jet fighters.


All 36 planes will be delivered to India in a span of 66 months.

India will receive the 1st Rafale fighter jet within three years of signing the agreement, sources in the negotiating team have told Bharatshkati.in.

These fighter jets will have at least a dozen India-specific enhancements to suit the requirements of the IAF. The contract will also include state-of-the-art missiles like Meteor and Scalp that will give the IAF a capability that had been sorely missing in its arsenal.

The Meteor, for instance is a BVR (Beyond Visual Range) air-to-air missile with a range in excess of 150 km. Its integration on the Rafale jets will mean the IAF can hit targets inside both Pakistan and Tibet while still staying within India’s own territorial boundary. Scalp, a long-range air-to-ground cruise missile with a range in excess of 300 km also gives the IAF an edge over its adversaries.

The weapons platform apart, the MoD-IAF negotiating team extracted many concessions and discounts to arrive at a price that is almost 750 million less than what was being quoted by the French side in January 2016, when the commercial negotiations gathered pace, almost seven months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced India’s intention to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf from France during his trip to Paris in April 2015.

In January this year, a day before French President François Hollande and Prime Minister Modi were to jointly issue a statement during the French President’s visit to India , the French side had quoted a price of 8.6 billion Euros. Not willing to accept what was seen as a high price, the Indian team refused to close the deal, forcing the two leaders to issue a statement which talked about finalising the deal without the price.
hollande-and-modi-newsx.com_-300x169.jpg


To bring down the cost, the Indian team asked French officials to calculate the deal on actual cost (Price as on today) plus European Inflation Indices (which varies like stock markets and is currently around 1 per cent per annum). The MoD has also capped the European Inflation Indices to maximum 3.5 per cent a year. In other words, if inflation Indices goes down (chances of it going down are more, looking at the current situation of European markets) India will have to pay less. Even if it goes up India will not pay more than 3.5 per cent increase.



In the now scrapped process for buying 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) floated the confusion reigned supreme in calculating the cost of the contract. After the French Dassault Aviation—makers of the Rafale Jet—emerged winners the UPA government had agreed with French officials to calculate the price on the fixed cost formula that allowed the company to include additional price of 3.9 per cent Inflation Indices from day 1 of the deal. So, had the India gone ahead with the UPA deal and the European Inflation Indices had fallen (as it indeed has), India would have ended up paying additional cost of inflation Indices (@3.9 per cent) which was already added at the initial negotiation itself. Moreover, there was confusion on the calculation of the basic price itself.

In the original MMRCA proposal the first batch of 18 planes which were to be manufactured in France and 108 were to be manufactured in India. However, when negotiations for the cost of 108 fighters began, it was discovered that the cost would go up substantially (in fact to the tune of Rs 150 crore per plane) since the cost the labour man hours in India were 2.7 times higher than in France! Moreover, then Defence Minister AK Antony had put down on file a remark that the negotiating team must come back to him before finalising the contract, creating more confusion for the negotiators. Clearly, with these factors, the fact that the French Company had emerged as the lowest bidder in itself had come under a cloud!

The current MoD team on the other hand extracted several other discounts. For instance, Dassault will have to ensure that at least 75 per cent of the entire fleet remains operational at any given time. This warranty is signed for the first five years. A comparative analysis will show that only about 60 per cent of India’s frontline fighters, the Sukhoi-30 fleet remains operational at any given time in the current scenario.

Till three years ago, only about 48 per cent of the Sukhoi fleet was able to fly at any given time, because of poor maintenance. Called the Performance-based Logistics Support, this clause can be extended by the user (the IAF) at the same cost as today for another two years with an option that the same terms can be applied for an additional five years at an additional cost that is negotiable.

Three other minor but important concessions include free training for nine IAF personnel, including three pilots; additional guarantee for 60 hours of usage of training aircraft for Indian pilots and six months of free weapons storage without charge (in case the Indian infrastructure is not ready for storing the weapons). The three concessions alone would make substantial saving for India, sources pointed out.
 
Eh, why not? Can you explain please?

There is large loss in thrust for the Chinese aircraft that take off from their Tibet bases. The LCA takes a 500Kg payload hit when taking off from Bangalore because of the elevation, and that's just 888m.

http://www.flytime.ca/landing-departing-high-altitude

And longer runways will be a luxury during wartime, on both sides.

Take the example of MMRCA trials in Leh. The F-16 had very high TWR, but the aircraft could take to the air with only 2 missiles with twice the normal takeoff run as the Rafale managed. So depending on your aircraft, even higher TWR and longer takeoff runs are not necessarily enough. The minimum cargo carrying capacity required for MMRCA in Leh was 2 fuel tanks 1000L capacity, 4 missiles and 2 tons of bombs. Only Rafale and Typhoon managed this.

So even aircraft like Rafale and Typhoon take a 50% or higher penalty from such altitudes, forget older aircraft like the J-10 or J-11.

The MKI suffers less than other Flankers because of TVC.

Gems :​



LOL
Don't tell anyone or Raytheon's market shares would plunge ...
they're selling it as a new technology & so are SAAB & Thales.
http://www.bidnessetc.com/65419-raytheon-company-introduces-patriot-radar-aesa-upgrade/

I know about that. But what are you going to do if something new comes up? New stuff is always coming up. You gotta keep up.

Anyway, when it comes to the Americans, there's the open source export tech and then the closed source non-export tech. Perhaps photonics is a closed source non-export tech for them while it is less of a constraint for the Russians.

So whatever the rivals are going to have, is called a monkey model etc. isn't that too much of undermining. I am sure, even IAF professionals wouldn't call for it like this.

PAF should stop relying on China for their fighter jets, particularly for high end. For example, the Chinese call the J-31 a pre-4th gen aircraft. That's basically a 4.5th gen if you go by western parlance. Stick with Turkey or other countries if you at least want real aircraft. The Chinese are only giving you their rejected maal, that's obvious to everyone.

In case IAF doesn't go for the Gripen, get your air force to close their eyes and buy it.
 

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