Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Taygibay]

I'd rather 'fall' for these guilable INDIAN reports about INDIAN planes(Rafales is considered an Indian plane if it's inducted into the IAF) than to listen to some emotional repeititive speculator who doesnt even know what he's talking about. on a defence forum.

Then why are you asking questions here?
Especially after 4 years of inactivity.

Just wonderin', Tay.

 

[Agent_47]

actual requirement is 54 squadrons.

People keep referring to this number, where does this come from?

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

Yes 36 is small for a country like India, and these first 36 are mainly for delivering nuclear weapons. But 36 Rafale is not something negligible, in France it is considered that one Rafale can replace 3 mirage 2000, and we had replaced 593 older aircraft with only 140 Rafale. If we use the same rate for India that means you can replace 150 older aircraft with the first 36 Rafale.

Please quantify your threat perception.We are faced with 2 N armed neighbours with whom we've fought wars & have long pending unresolved issues.I'm sure France didn't break down the equation into the simple one you've formulated however powerful a fighter Rafale is ( Note - I'm not denying it's efficacy ) .Please weigh that against China's & Pakistan's air forces including future acquisitions in the period between 2019-26.

In fact , beginning next year when we begin mothballing the MIG 27 ( already dead as they rarely fly out on patrol duty ) till 2030 when the aircraft we're retiring will be much more than the ones we're inducting , will form one of the most critical periods in the life of the IAF.God forbid ,if we were to get into a conflict situation , we haven't even tied up with major power to loan their aircrafts. This reflects the depth in our strategic planning .

I'm merely pointing out & supporting @eldarlmari post that our replacements when they start coming in the form of the Tejas ( Mk 1 , 1a & (2??) ) , Rafale & FGFA seems too little , too late.

 

[randomradio]

People keep referring to this number, where does this come from?

The IAF itself. The numbers are generally between 54 and 59 depending on who you ask and has been rounded off to 60 squadrons. But this was back in the 1950s, still unchanged.

Eventually the IAF decided to maintain 45 squadrons as their minimum necessary due to the realities of our situation, and that didn't happen until this century with the govt sanctioning 42 squadrons.

Personally, with the addition of a large number of attack helicopters and UCAVs, we may not need that many. But this is the IAF we are talking about, so you never know.

Please quantify your threat perception.We are faced with 2 N armed neighbours with whom we've fought wars & have long pending unresolved issues.I'm sure France didn't break down the equation into the simple one you've formulated however powerful a fighter Rafale is ( Note - I'm not denying it's efficacy ) .Please weigh that against China's & Pakistan's air forces including future acquisitions in the period between 2019-26.

In fact , beginning next year when we begin mothballing the MIG 27 ( already dead as they rarely fly out on patrol duty ) till 2030 when the aircraft we're retiring will be much more than the ones we're inducting , will form one of the most critical periods in the life of the IAF.God forbid ,if we were to get into a conflict situation , we haven't even tied up with major power to loan their aircrafts. This reflects the depth in our strategic planning .

I'm merely pointing out & supporting @eldarlmari post that our replacements when they start coming in the form of the Tejas ( Mk 1 , 1a & (2??) ) , Rafale & FGFA seems too little , too late.

China and Pakistan will both be well behind us as and when our jets start coming in.

 

[Ind4Ever]

 

[PARIKRAMA]

There are 4 lines in India planned over time with simple production schedules

1. LWF LCA line 2018 onwards - HAL as of now + may include a future private line
2. MMRCA line 2021+ - Rafale
3. LWF line - 2022-23+ - can be F16, Gripen E as LCA Mk2 and LSA as LCA Mk2 as well
4. Heavy 5th Gen fighter 2026+ - HAL line upgraded from MKI line

The MKI even though we may ink another 40 to raise the number to 312 actually goes just in replacing the numbers of retirees uptill 2023 timeline.

In essence you will see a bare minimum maintenance of present squadron strength till 2023 before you see a replacement cycle with Point 2 and 3 kicking in with full production rate and slowly and steadily the squadron strength will go up to meet necessary requirements.

Uptill 2027 timeline we will reach our requisite strength and post that the multiplier effect will push towards the higher squadron number ~54-56 squadrons over time towards the middle of 2030s which will see another set of fighters retiring and squadron strength returning to mid 40s before next phase of production of AMCA line starts the multiplier effect to build up again.

Beyond this will be 4-6 squadrons of UCAV and Armed UAVs for strike missions. Much depends upon the AURA project and Ghatak program success for this squadron numbers. But we have enough timeframe to make it a success.

Helos will not be considered in this squadron strength and in general they will continue to be counted in IAF stables. Its same for rotary craft in other functions within IAF.

 

[Norge Stronk]

Then why are you asking questions here?

Good call, French Bread. Everything on PDF is overly emotional and put forth by ignorant fools... so what else does someone expect here?

For instance, talk crap on Norway and. Totally measured response by PDF standards, but kind of emotional and nationalistic. And don't even get me started on the quality of my posts.


...

Also, this damn thing is still going on. Yeah alright, I'll check back in a few months for some progress.

At least the IN got the anchor out of its pants (apart from its sub procurement).

 

[Ind4Ever]

People keep referring to this number, where does this come from?

It's of roughly worked out calculation at times of two front war.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

China and Pakistan will both be well behind us as and when our jets start coming in.

Could you be kind enough to elaborate ? Perhaps , venture a qualitative estimate of their air forces circa 2025 - 2030 ?

 

[Ind4Ever]

People keep referring to this number, where does this come from?

But it was also at times when availability of su and rest of the fleet were lower than current status. Once we conclude the deal with Russians for making sophisticated spares for Su30 fleet then its like adding more new fighters. Chinese make overall all spares for their su 30 and j11 fleet so we need more advanced fighters in both medium and light categories. That's where Rafale and Tejas comes into the play. We also upgraded our Mirage fleets so rafale and Mirage combo will yield more positive results. Tejas usually be used for point defence means rest of the fleet can be put against our enemies. Sukois carry out numerous roles includes deep strike, air superiority and coastal defense and surveillance at times. Rafale and Tejas can take of this load shed making sukoi as our sole air superiority fighter. While rafale used against high strategic targets aiding deep strike mission of Sukois.

Numbers are needed but we can manage our present threats with more advanced rafale.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

LWF line - 2022-23+ - can be F16, Gripen E as LCA Mk2 and LSA as LCA Mk2 as well

In fact , they should either opt for imports of 6-8 squadrons of F - 16 or take up LM's offer of dismantling their existing plant & re setting the entire plant here.I hope we aren't too dogged about MII on this one as that's the only fair chance we have of inducting a tried & tested fighter ASAP into the IAF to make up the depleting nos . pronto

This should be done now , so that we can have the first planes roll out by 2019 & not 2023 - 26 timelines .

The alternatives to this could also be explored viz - Su 35 or maybe a combination of both Su 35 & F - 16 in equal nos.

The Gripen E is still in development mode & the LSA may well turn out to be another experiment which time doesn't afford .

 

[Vergennes]

View attachment 335947

In case some didn't notice,under the Rafale we can see a ASMP/A missile,which is the french strategic forces nuclear air-launched cruise missile.

Good call, French Bread. Everything on PDF is overly emotional and put forth by ignorant fools... so what else does someone expect here?

For instance, talk crap on Norway and. Totally measured response by PDF standards, but kind of emotional and nationalistic. And don't even get me started on the quality of my posts.


...

Also, this damn thing is still going on. Yeah alright, I'll check back in a few months for some progress.

At least the IN got the anchor out of its pants (apart from its sub procurement).

Who is Norway ?
Never heard of him.

 

[Ind4Ever]

In case some didn't notice,under the Rafale we can see a ASMP/A missile,which is the french strategic forces nuclear air-launched cruise missile.

View attachment 335952


Who is Norway ?
Never heard of him.

It won't go unnoticed hope we get these too

 

[Norge Stronk]

Who is Norway ?
Never heard of him.

Either I'm drunk or you posted twice!! I swear I saw double!

Oh well, nothing more alcohol wont solve.

hope we get these too

Psst. Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

While India is not, France is a part to the NPT and therefore abides by the rules set forth within it... rules that include not exporting or jointly developing nuclear capable delivery systems.

Now where is your main account.. It looks better when you have that professional tag written beneath your name...

But, but then people start asking me too many questions thinking I'll have an answer for them about a subject I know nothing about just because I'm a defense industry pro. So I have to make something up, and make it sound smart to convince them I know what I'm talking about, and they parrot that info to others having taken my word at face value. Then that rumor gets around and before you know it Palau is a nuclear armed nation according to PDF!!!

Too much pressure. Without that accursed "Professional" title I can come across as being as ignorant as I truly am, and still occasionally surprise people with something smart.

Of course this doesn't mean I'm not actually a defense professional outside of PDF.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Compared to current missile ASMP, the ASMPA would offer a greater range (500 to 600 km) and a greater diversity of trajectories, including final penetrations maneuvers at very low altitude. This missile, the successor to the ASMP carried by the Mirage 2000N and Super Etendard Modernized (SEM), is equipped with the new airborne nuclear warhead (TNA) with a power of 300 kilotons. With an estimated range of 500 kilometers at high-altitude, ASMPA is powered by a ramjet, which gives it a higher speed of around Mach 3. Capable of flying very low, it has penetration capacity and increased accuracy compared to its predecessor. This missile is implemented by the Mirage 2000N, Rafale Air and Navy Rafale.

And this could make our Mirage fleet even more deadlier . But why only 54 bought by France? These missiles can be used for conventional missions at large scale. Stand alone range 500-600 km with 300 kg war heads at Mach 3