Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[R!CK]

Trappier himself said France won't be taking deliveries. It's only 26 aircraft out of 66 (at 11 a year) for France for the 2014-2019 LPM.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/france-to-cut-back-on-rafale-order/article4982769.ece


France will receive all 26 jets by 2017--
2014 - 11
2015 - 8
2016 - 6
2017 - 1

Come 2018 and 2019, France will see zero deliveries. If you really want more, then you will have to place a new order.

So the 5th tranche will only happen from 2020, in the new LPM. In fact this is probably what @CNL-PN-AA has been referring to as the F3R2. In the meantime, you can upgrade your older aircraft to the F3R standard.

Brother, the news you posted is outdated. In 2013, there was 0 export orders for rafale. Please go through Dassault publications from July, 2016. Year 2018, French state will have an outstanding order of 31 jets. This is without considering the next Tranche order expected for 2020-25 timeline.

However the current Mirage upgrade project to keep them operational to 2030 might slow down the next Tranche order. Regardless, your information that French order will be completed by 2017 seems to be wrong.

Good Day!

 

[migflug]

from fb:




Tejas-India's MRCA
September 13 at 8:00pm ·
More details of Rafale contract

Dasault has confirmed that the Rafales will be delivered at a rate of two airframes per month. The IGA is being prepared and our sources tell us that the agreement will be signed before the end of this month, some even suggesting by next week.

Earlier negotiations stipulated that the Rafales were to be delivered 18 months from the signing of the contract. But the current contract reveal the delivery start date to be in 2019, possibly due to the modifications required by the IAF and conflicting delivery schedules with Egypt and Qatar among various other reasons.

The deal includes ToT and a 50% offset where France will invest 30 percent into military aeronautics-related research programs and 20 percent into local production of Rafale components. ToT includes state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics.

Another important development was the confirmation of 'Make In India' Rafale production line by the BJP spokeperson during a television program. As we had reported earlier, the follow on orders will be in 5 tranches with a total order around 150+ jets for both IAF and the Navy under MII. The decision will be made before the end of this financial year.

#Warwolf

while few members here are speculating that rafale will be delivered by 2019, actually it will start delivering from 2019

 

[halloweene]

Guys any idea if we are getting the SCALP EG too ?

Only one reason you would not get it is if India was not compliant with MTCR...

No, he got a ride.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/thunder-at-100-feet-flying-frances-rafale-superfighter-495271



There are standard specs and Indian-specific specs.

Under standard ones, it's for all Rafale clients, that's uprated engine, Spectra and radar upgrades, SATCOM, new materials for the airframe etc.

For the Indian-specific ones, it will most likely include Indian weapons, Israeli HMD, Litening pod...

These are the ones we know of.



I'm guessing less than 150.

Right. Ajai Shukla was denied a ride.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Only one reason you would not get it is if India was not compliant with MTCR...

Right. Ajai Shukla was denied a ride.

Can you throw some light on delivery schedule.
Talks are wild about 2019 and a total of 66 months delivery schedule from date of signing (2016-22 beginning) as well as all delivery finished between 2018,19 and 20

 

[Sri]

Finally Chosen the right day ( 23rd Sept, Ashtami)

Ashtami: The Rudra rule this day, which is good for taking up arms, building of one's defenses, and fortification.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Trappier himself said France won't be taking deliveries. It's only 26 aircraft out of 66 (at 11 a year) for France for the 2014-2019 LPM.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/france-to-cut-back-on-rafale-order/article4982769.ece


France will receive all 26 jets by 2017--
2014 - 11
2015 - 8
2016 - 6
2017 - 1

Come 2018 and 2019, France will see zero deliveries. If you really want more, then you will have to place a new order.

So the 5th tranche will only happen from 2020, in the new LPM. In fact this is probably what @CNL-PN-AA has been referring to as the F3R2. In the meantime, you can upgrade your older aircraft to the F3R standard.

We have to receive 26 Rafale during the LPM, it's our plan because we want to create a new squadron of Rafale with Nuclear weapons to replace some Mirage 2000 N.

With these Rafale we will have receive 152 Rafale, but the current contract between Dassault and the French government is for 60 Rafale to reach a total amount of 180 Rafale. So without any new contract Dassault will have to procure 28 Rafale to France after the LPM. And I think it will be at the rate of 6 by year. So in 2021 France will have to order 45 Rafale for delivery starting in 2024 and it is likely it will be Rafale MLU.

 

[Vergennes]

A reminder.

 

[halloweene]

Can you throw some light on delivery schedule.
Talks are wild about 2019 and a total of 66 months delivery schedule from date of signing (2016-22 beginning) as well as all delivery finished between 2018,19 and 20

No sorry, i can ask a Dassault executive after signature, however they are usually quite secrecive

 

[BON PLAN]

Based on 2011-12 timeline Mr Ashley Tellis version

++++

[/QUOTE]

Some very strange Datas :

Gripen : Superlative maneuverability. OK. Why not. Strange to say that when it's poor in hot and high perf also....
Rafale : Good maneuverability. ONLY GOOD ? same close coupled config, more T/W ratio than Gripen...
SH18 : remarkable maneuverability. REMARKABLE ?

Rafale win all dog fight against SH ......

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The production is currently at 1/year, it was not changed even if the 2016 delivery was less: It's just because plane manufactured in 2016 have needed more test which were to be made later.

What is important is that there will be 26 plane for France before end of 2019. How they will be manufactured is not know. The rate increase 3 years after the decision to increase it. The decision to increase the rate to 2/year has been taken in june 2015, the decision to increase the rate to 3/year will be taken in September 2016.

 

[BON PLAN]

The Production output was 8 jets in 2015, against the capacity of 11/year. This is mainly due to 3 units being reconfigured for Egypt from Fr AF standard.

Order Backlog 2014: France(43)

2015 Total - 8 units

2015 - First Half
1 unit for France
3 units for Egypt

2015 - First Half
4 units for France​

Order Backlog 2015: France(38) Egypt(21) Qatar (24)

2016 Total - 9 units

2016 - First Half
3 units for Egypt (2015 airframe)
4 units for France

2016 - Second Half
2 units for France
​

P.S: Only 6 new airframes built. Line to undergo preparation for production ramp-up 2017

Order Backlog 2016: France(32) Egypt(18) Qatar (24)

2017

1 unit for France
3 units for Egypt​

Line up-gradation to continue. Qatar standard to complete testing. Indian standard to begin testing.

Source: http://www.dassault-aviation.tv/first_half_year_2016_results-1416-en.html and multiple official documents.

Order Backlog 2017: France(31) Egypt(15) Qatar (24)

2018

22-33 units/year proposed​

6-9 units for Egypt?
3-6 units for Qatar?
3-6 units for India?
3-9 units for France?
​

2019

33 units/year

9-12 units for Egypt (Completion of Tranche1)
9-12 units for Qatar?
6-12 units for India?
3-6 units for France?​

2020

33 units/year​

6-12 units for Qatar? (Completion of Order)
12-15 units for India?
6-12 units for France?​

Personally France might continue to receive 3 units/year until Egypt Tranche 1 is completed. Qatar contract has an agreed timeline of 2018-20 for 24 units. Indian order might be executed over 2018-20/21 time frame.

Disclaimer: Not speaking from family source background, data compiled from multiple official sources. Feel free to ignore if wrong.

​

Good Day all!

The 33 planes/year rate is not decided. For the moment it's a 22 planes/year that is engaged from 2018.

But some good news may happend, with this order (I don't think so), and also if Egypt and/or Qatar opted for 12 more planes, or another deal (Malaysia ?)

We will get all the jets by 2019.

Trappier said last year that Dassault has already started increasing production rate.
http://in.reuters.com/article/dassault-rafale-idINFWN10003E20150720

The earlier plan was to double production with Indian orders, but Qatar signed before India. So Dassault has no choice but to triple production. And then there's a potential IN order also.



That's what I said.

3/month - August = 33 jets/month.

In 2016, Dassault will deliver 9 jets. 6 to France and 3 to Egypt.
In 2017, Dassault will deliver 4 jets. 1 to France, 3 to Egypt.
In 2018, Dassault will deliver up to 33 jets. 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.
In 2019, 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.



Nothing for France until after 2020.

I don't agree.

We will naturally have to go by what Trappier says. And it's not 'commence' deliveries, it's 'finish' deliveries.

The delivery time frame is 3 years from date of signature. So by December 2019, we should have all 36, if we go by the French financial year. Or March 2020 if we go by the Indian one.

And IAF requirement is 1 squadron per year, even for MII.

Too short !
You need time to grow from 11/year to 22, and from 22 to 33.

 

[randomradio]

The production is currently at 1/year, it was not changed even if the 2016 delivery was less: It's just because plane manufactured in 2016 have needed more test which were to be made later.

What is important is that there will be 26 plane for France before end of 2019. How they will be manufactured is not know. The rate increase 3 years after the decision to increase it. The decision to increase the rate to 2/year has been taken in june 2015, the decision to increase the rate to 3/year will be taken in September 2016.

Okay, so instead of 2018 and 2019, we will get all the jets in 2019 and 2020?

But France is guaranteed to get 0 in 2018 and 2019, otherwise the numbers don't stick.

Picdel, do you think French numbers will cross 225?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Okay, so instead of 2018 and 2019, we will get all the jets in 2019 and 2020?

But France is guaranteed to get 0 in 2018 and 2019, otherwise the numbers don't stick.

Picdel, do you think French numbers will cross 225?

Yes because it will take 6 years from 2024 to procure 45 Rafale and then it will be time to replace the first Rafale that arrived in 2001 with Rafale MLU. It could be at 6/year only if there is still export order.

 

[Taygibay]

RandomR, check what Pic told you.

-There are more Rafales for France past the LPM.
-Those that reach zero by 2018 are the M version incl. F1 retrofit.
-And all those tables and numbers you bandy around are from be-
fore / without the production increase.

Now, whatever the curve of the ramp-up ( which Halloweene will
be best placed to answer so let's give him time ) this is also to be
tied to the F-3R standard available also in 2018. Some birds have
to be reserved for it as an LRIP.

Last but not least, the Rafales taken from the AdlA line for Egypt
have to be versed back to it by the end of its initial delivery deal.

Besides, the important thing for India is that a full 11 at minima
seem slated for it once 3 per month rate is reached. That means
that the longest delay would be 3 years.

That last is what Éric Trappier said repeatedly when answering
journos by linking the 2 to 3 increase to your signature.

From September, 3 years is 2020.

@Abingdon, offered to India does not equal to offered to IAF ...
which is what I meant to point out, my friend.

And good day all, Tay.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Based on 2011-12 timeline Mr Ashley Tellis version

++++

Some very strange Datas :

Gripen : Superlative maneuverability. OK. Why not. Strange to say that when it's poor in hot and high perf also....
Rafale : Good maneuverability. ONLY GOOD ? same close coupled config, more T/W ratio than Gripen...
SH18 : remarkable maneuverability. REMARKABLE ?

Rafale win all dog fight against SH ......[/QUOTE]
Looks like the Gripen E disadvantages are disappearing.

Final Configuration settled.
AESA radar on track.
First plane to be able to use Meteor. SDB approved for use.
"Hot" performance unknown for Gripen E.
High Cost - not compared to Rafale.

Subsystems sourced from third parties - same for Typhoon.
Technology Transfers only on SAAB stuff, but the includes GaN Radar.
Political Benefits -maybe not.