Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[R!CK]

An extract of what I post on another forum in february 2013

And this in September 2013

I think a french "wizard" will certainly be available for you to improve your Kaveri in the context of strategic alliance, but he will remain French! If you want your own "wizard" he have to emerge from your engine industry.

Precise!

 

[zebra7]

That I already know in fact the core of the engine is the red tape part of the engine. But here the paths deviate whereas the Americans wont share any details what so ever there is a change that the French might. These core details can help the Kabini core to come to light instead of using M88 core with the Kaveri. French are obviously willing to share more than American's, any info on the core would be pretty useful.

The part about Single Crystal Blade is correct India does make those but the fact remains they have failed with Kaveri because on lower tolerance thus we need them and a bit of other things to increase the compression ration.

No actually French max would only give recomendation on the Kaveri, and will never give the tech.

I don't know, what you understand by the tech. but what tech. needed here is the technology to manufacture it of the level of quality and that too economically and feasibility. There is always be a difference between the lab product and the industrial product.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

@PARIKRAMA
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...824368121104:mf_story_key.5297861734490939226

This time he did included Rafale....

But notice two more things.

1. " BLOCK 70 SUPER VIPER ".
and 2. No Russian Option.....

Some of the responses.... Utha Le Re Baba , Utha le.

 

[randomradio]

Heavy aircraft:
Su-30MKI - We will have 267(touch wood) of these by 2019. No more.

Medium aircraft:
Rafale - 36+120

Light aircraft:
LCA Mk1/A - 120
Gripen - 120

That's about it. IAF is not buying the F-16 or the SH. IAF is not buying the LCA Mk2 either.

We will have 440 old jets, MKI, Mig-29, M2K and Jag, comprising 22 squadrons.

The remaining 20 squadrons will see 8 squadrons of Rafale, 6 squadrons of LCA and 6 squadrons of Gripen.

This will be the fleet by 2027, not counting attrition.

As I had pointed out earlier, we will be getting 400 new jets over the next decade.

The govt had already decided what they were going to do way back in Jan-Feb 2016 for both twin engine and single engine fighter lines. The govt shoved the LCA into IAF's throats, and in exchange canceled the Mk2 for IAF and selected the Rafale and Gripen for MII. So all parties are happy.

Both Rafale and Gripen will start with 90 jets each and will have those expanded to 120 each as production progresses.

 

[jha]

Heavy aircraft:
Su-30MKI - We will have 267(touch wood) of these by 2019. No more.

Medium aircraft:
Rafale - 36+120

Light aircraft:
LCA Mk1/A - 120
Gripen - 120

That's about it. IAF is not buying the F-16 or the SH. IAF is not buying the LCA Mk2 either.

We will have 440 old jets, MKI, Mig-29, M2K and Jag, comprising 22 squadrons.

The remaining 20 squadrons will see 8 squadrons of Rafale, 6 squadrons of LCA and 6 squadrons of Gripen.

This will be the fleet by 2027, not counting attrition.

As I had pointed out earlier, we will be getting 400 new jets over the next decade.

The govt had already decided what they were going to do way back in Jan-Feb 2016 for both twin engine and single engine fighter lines. The govt shoved the LCA into IAF's throats, and in exchange canceled the Mk2 for IAF and selected the Rafale and Gripen for MII. So all parties are happy.

Both Rafale and Gripen will start with 90 jets each and will have those expanded to 120 each as production progresses.

No 5th Gen ? FGFA/F-35 ?

 

[randomradio]

No 5th Gen ? FGFA/F-35 ?

FGFA is coming for sure. It will most likely be signed in December. Actually I believe the FGFA and AMCA development contracts will be signed this financial year itself.

F-35 depends on the navy, IAF is not buying it. The problem with the F-35 is the Americans have made a rule saying they will give the most classified briefing to customers only after they have committed to the program, so that creates problems. We can't buy without knowing what we are actually paying for. Plus, we haven't signed CISMOA/COMCASA. Without that, we cannot buy the F-35. So IN will be forced to buy the Rafale-M, which is equally good.

Anyway, even with the most optimistic dates, we will start receiving the FGFA only in 2024, and they will come in very slowly, like 2 a year and then 4 and then 8, finally 16 by 2030. But it's not related to the Rafale, LCA and Gripen MII. By the time FGFA's full rate production starts, the production for the other three would have ended.

 

[Hulk]

God, only now Shiv Aroor/Livefist are reporting this?

And these bufoons are whom the vast majority of the Indian population rely on for the news.......

Who do I rely on then?

 

[jha]

FGFA is coming for sure. It will most likely be signed in December. Actually I believe the FGFA and AMCA development contracts will be signed this financial year itself.

F-35 depends on the navy, IAF is not buying it. The problem with the F-35 is the Americans have made a rule saying they will give the most classified briefing to customers only after they have committed to the program, so that creates problems. We can't buy without knowing what we are actually paying for. Plus, we haven't signed CISMOA/COMCASA. Without that, we cannot buy the F-35. So IN will be forced to buy the Rafale-M, which is equally good.

Anyway, even with the most optimistic dates, we will start receiving the FGFA only in 2024, and they will come in very slowly, like 2 a year and then 4 and then 8, finally 16 by 2030. But it's not related to the Rafale, LCA and Gripen MII. By the time FGFA's full rate production starts, the production for the other three would have ended.

Suppose we do sign COMCASA, don't you think some off the shelf F-35s will serve us good. Will not one LM built F-35 in 2025 be yards if not miles, ahead of anything Russia can sell us or, China can field against us ?

Edit: just to confirm that I am not pimping for F-35. Just being curious. If our strategic interests are better protected with off the shelf purchase of 3-4 squads of F-35 for IAF, should we at least not look at this option ?

 

[randomradio]

Suppose we do sign COMCASA, don't you think some off the shelf F-35s will serve us good. Will not one LM built F-35 in 2025 be yards if not miles, ahead of anything Russia can sell us or, China can field against us ?

There is a greater chance that we will end up buying 3 squadrons of the Russian version of PAK FA if we have extra money or if there is immediate necessity, the decision is still pending. The PAK FA will in fact be miles ahead of the F-35. The current version of PAK FA, which will hit production next year, is carrying tech that the 2023 FOC version of F-35 will not.

The F-35 has analog AESA, the PAK FA will begin production with Digital AESA, the difference in this technology is vast. Plus the PAK FA will be equipped with DIRCM and directed energy weapons well before the F-35 will.

The PAK FA will carry more radars and passive sensors than the F-35. For example, the PAK FA is equipped with more types of radars, and along with that the PAK FA will also have EM, IR, UV and TV sensors while the F-35 will only have one type of radar and only EM and IR sensors.

The PAK FA is equally stealthy, is super maneuverable, can supercruise, has a larger internal payload and greater range. Plus it will also come with active cancellation technology which will give it a far lower RCS than the F-35 when necessary.

Edit: just to confirm that I am not pimping for F-35. Just being curious. If our strategic interests are better protected with off the shelf purchase of 3-4 squads of F-35 for IAF, should we at least not look at this option ?

As a single engine aircraft with low thrust to weight, the F-35 cannot fly efficiently over the Himalayas. It's been designed for low and medium altitudes. Against China, we need very fast and high flying aircraft. So the F-35 has never been a good option for the IAF.

But it's a different case when it comes to the IN. The Pentagon has been pushing the F-35 for the IN's new carrier as part of their carrier cooperation. They are talking about the benefits of the E-2D + F-35 and their ability to electronically talk to US assets in the region, including military satellites. Basically, they are pushing for joint patrols.

 

[jha]

@PARIKRAMA ... Your thoughts please. Even though my query is very amateurish for you.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA ... Your thoughts please. Even though my query is very amateurish for you.

May i suggest this thread
https://defence.pk/threads/indian-airforce-mmrca-lwf-alternate-discussion.448646/

There you should raise this query bcz its one of the options quoted by Milspec in opening post.
Here in this thread, lets stick to Rafale.

I had requested mods for a dedicated thread for Make In India fighter news as sticky thread. if that happens it will be good for sure so that we can discuss there more..

BTW nothing is amateurish. Feel free to ask anything.. We only learn more when we discuss and share what we know

 

[Thorough Pro]

This is where it all started Nov 23, 2005 about 11 years ago and its still going

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault-rafale-tender-news-discussions.4347/

 

[CNL-PN-AA]

Rafale all set to fly: High level delegation to straighten last minutes differences

By Pradip R. Sagar
Published: 11th September 2016 01:37 AM
Last Updated: 11th September 2016 01:44 AM


NEW DELHI: A high level delegation comprised of all three French defence firms, involved in the 36 Rafale fighter jet deal with Indian Air Force, have been camping in Capital to straighten the last minutes differences, if any, according to a top source in the government. After the Defence ministry approving the recommendations of the committee negotiating the deal for the last 16 months the file has now reached the Prime Minister’s Office for final vetting.

According to sources, privy to the development, representatives of Dassault aviation, MBDA and Thales are in talks with the government officials to give a much needed push for the deal. According to the contract, Dassault aviations, manufacturers the aircraft, MBDA provides weapons system package and Thales is giving avionics to the fighter jet.

“Representatives all three involved defence firms are in talks to take swift decision on any last minute doubt. Certainly, the deal is making a headway and should be done in a week’s time,”said a defence source.

It is believed that the PMO is making a strong push to conclude the deal, as it is already delayed. And the final report submitted by a team of negotiating the Rafale deal was approved by the highest acquisition body headed by the Defence minister Manohar Parrikar in its last meeting in August.

During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the defence ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.

The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion Euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions.

The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new age beyond visual range missile Meteor and Israeli helmet mounted display.

The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion Euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons, including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria. It is not clear if the price has been brought down further but India was seeking more.

The new deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.

 

[AugenBlick]

Who do I rely on then?

@PARIKRAMA is the id of RM Manohar Parrikar himself

 

[Zarvan]

The Competitive Edge
It wasn't until a couple of years back that only the US fighters could boast of the new generation Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) airborne radars. Among these aircraft with this great asset are the Lockheed Martin F-16E/F Block 60 Fighting Falcon (using the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 AESA radar), the updated USAF model Boeing F-15C/F-15SG (fitted with the Raytheon AN/APG-63(V)2 and AN/APG-63(V)3 respectively), the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the EA-18G Growler (equipped with the Raytheon APG-79 or APG-82(V)1). The Americans now have a ‘rival’ in the shape of the French Air Force’s Rafale fighter, fitted with the Thales RBE2/AA AESA lightweight radar. The Rafale was the first European fighter to be fitted with an AESA radar.

A committed research and development program coupled with a sustained application by the French industry have been behind the Rafale emerging as the first European combat aircraft with a functional electronically phased array radar and a completely indigenous hi-tech sensor. Other European efforts relying on non-European technology are still at various stages of development and testing. Ericsson’s PS-05/A MK-5 (NORA) for the JAS 39 Gripen and Euroradar’s Captor-E CAESAR (Captor Active Electronically Scanning Array Radar) for the Eurofighter are two primary examples.

The Rafale is already a splendid multirole fighter aircraft, it is even better with this new radar. The new RBE2 AESA brings to the Rafale an extended range of capabilities like low-observable target detection, full use of new weapon systems such as the new MBDA Meteor. BVR hypersonic air-to-air missiles, a much higher reliability with relatively low maintenance costs and greater waveform agility for SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) imaging and improved resistance to jamming.

All export versions of the Rafale, including the 36 earmarked for the Indian Air Force’s, will incorporate the Thales AESA advanced radar technology as standard. Rafales now use the NATO Link 16 tactical data exchange network.

A Smarter Radar
An AESA radar, also known as ‘Active Phased Array’ radar, is that type of radar whose transmitter and receiver functions are composed of numerous independent solid-state transmitters and receiver modules (TRMs). Other components include an advanced receiver/exciter, ruggedized Commercial Off-The-Shelf processors, and power supplies. AESA radars simply aim their ‘beam’ by emitting separate radio waves from each module at certain angles which form a virtual sheaf in front of the antenna. Such radar is an improvement on the older passive electronically scanned (PESA) radar which emitted across a much larger band of frequencies, making it difficult to detect over background noise and clutter. The Rafale with its AESA radar will broadcast powerful radar signals to detect enemy aircraft or surface targets, while itself remaining unobserved. The complete ‘electronic cloak’ provided by the Rafale’s Thales Spectra ECM suite, which is unique, is another advantage that this aircraft boasts of. It seems very likely that the French has outwitted the Americans in this exclusive technological development.

In conclusion, one has to reemphasise that the choice of the Rafale by the IAF was based on sound evaluation and intent. The Indian Air Force has the greatest and most crucial stake in the process of defending the nation's airspace and security and to this effect, the Rafale will prove to be the most effective weapon in its arsenal. (With inputs from Jean-Michel Guhl in Paris)
Admin - IDN

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/09/idn-take-rafale-cut-above-rest.html