Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Agent_47]

No, no! Delayed until 2018.
The UAE don't really need a buy soon for one & this allows
them to circumvent the Fr elections for two and lastly means
that the F3 R standard will be completed so they don't have
to pay for any upgrade they want that it already contains.

What about uprated/new engines?

 

[newindiandefence]

Is India buying f3r model or anything else.??
or Only with metore bvr ?
Which engine current or upgraded?

Is India buying f3r model or anything else.??
or Only with metore bvr ?
Which engine current or upgraded?

How many additional changes will India want ?
Brahmos , astra bvr missile, Israeli helmet mountain display , any Russian??

 

[airmarshal]

Please dont take it as India vs Pakistan but help us understand whats taking so long? After all even the fly away request was made almost 2 years now.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Is India buying f3r model or anything else.??
or Only with metore bvr ?
Which engine current or upgraded?



How many additional changes will India want ?
Brahmos , astra bvr missile, Israeli helmet mountain display , any Russian??

Customised edition better than F3R with uprated engines and meteor BVR and IRST as well.
Indian arsenal integration to be done locally and recertified as part of customized package.
HMDS surely.. Dash3 in Frontline but expectation are some elements of planned upgraded product feature may be added.

Please dont take it as India vs Pakistan but help us understand whats taking so long? After all even the fly away request was made almost 2 years now.

Price haggling , customizations, finer points of tech transfer under offset, and manufacturing line setup negotiations. These are the four key issues which caused delay from April 2015 onwards time till date ..
The deal should get approved from Cabinet in a short time and contract signing should happen within 40 odd days

 

[newindiandefence]

Thank parikrama ...

What will be tracking range of IRST on rafale for a f16 type object??

Can I know IRST range of tejas (Mark1a,mk2) , sukhoi (30,super sukhoi,fgfa) , Mig series? And Chinese j31,j20

Which top ten fighter jets have best IRST?

 

[Taygibay]

What about uprated/new engines?

Well, there are two variants of the uprated M88.

When the engine was introduced, development continued of course.
That is where the 9T figure came up that was an early UAE goal, their
fear running along the hot temperatures eating power line. Since however,
France opened BA 104 in Al-Dhafra and Rafales have shown they can
do the job ... including daily sorties against Daesh with heavy SCALPs.

Safran felt confident that they could reach 9T for a similar if bigger motor.
The bigger is not a huge problem though, still fitting inside the airplane if
with a new center of gravity and so new command and control "laws" but ...
you'd also need new enlarged intakes to feed that motor enough air to reach
that power output. And that is a bigger bug, requiring a full re-design of the
front of the plane. When you consider that one of the Rafale's strengths is
its high coefficient aerodynamics ( finesse, etc ), it becomes very touchy.

Two decisions came out of this situation. First, content with the power it had,
the AdlA ( / DGA ) asked for more durability at ISO power instead ( requiring no changes ).
Second, possible use of a 9T version was set back to the 2026+ MLU. If, as
most modern jets, a weight increase happens and makes a 9T output important,
the re-design could be piled on with an evolved cell with extra stealth. Doing
both at the same time saves energy and money.

Since then, Safran kept working and are now suggesting an 83 kN variant [ 8.3 T ]
without new intakes gaining from the original 75 kN and supposedly as durable.
For France, the need is not sufficient to warrant the change but depending on
what price tag the ex-SNECMA puts on it, other customers could easily choose
to have that version in their Rafales. India and UAE have a possible synergy there.

That's pretty much where things stand today.
I hope it helps, Tay.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

https://twitter.com/x/status/772682494319656960

Look at Dhoval.....

 

[airmarshal]

There was a very good thread started by some Indian member regarding Rafale, its technical capabilities and its systems. Cant seem to find it

 

[CNL-PN-AA]

Following is what I wrote a few months ago on another forum:

Two good friends of mine ( Safran and french ministry of defence ) told me that Qatar would be the first customer to receive the F3R standard with an evolution of the M88-3 project rated at 8.3/8.5t without modification of the Rafale frame. It would be due to new steps in alloys technology reached by Safran.

CNL-PN-AA, Oct 16, 2015

This new M88 would have same consumption and maintenance as the current engine.

CNL-PN-AA, Oct 16, 2015

Picdelamirand-oil said: ↑
So it could be retrofitted on existing Rafale, Rafale M for exemple?

Absolutely! The shape / dimensions / weight would be the same. Some internal modules would be modified and could be retrofitted on former engines. The use of new alloys would allow to increase turbine speeds, temperatures, airflow rate and pressure ratio and thus enable more power. Also planned is a new ECU. Thrust vectoring control will come shortly after with a light, simple and reliable new system.

CNL-PN-AA, Oct 16, 2015

As I already said, the F3R will come with an improved engine. But an other system will also be improved ... And Captor E will have to wait at least 10 years to match it !

CNL-PN-AA, Dec 19, 2015

INCAS in 2018. M88 improvement for all F3Rs. Retrofit possible for all precedent versions.

CNL-PN-AA, Dec 20, 2015

Tragedac for F4 and Melbaa for MLU. M88 evolution ( 8,2/8,5t ) and INCAS would come in F3-R sooner than scheduled, thanks to export orders, OPEX and good tests. Many things could change and be accelerated in the coming months.

CNL-PN-AA, Dec 20, 2015

MLU in 2025 seems correct. F4 could come sooner than scheduled and be called F3-R2, around 2021/2022. An important standard in 2023 with the revolution MLU in 2025 woulb be strange...

CNL-PN-AA, Dec 20, 2015


Please don' t ask me anything about thrust vectoring.
A new M88 will come after 2025 with thrust far above 9 tons.
And concerning the 85 M88s that will be produced in 2018, I should have written " the equivalent of 85 ". Spare modules are counted. But it is at least 70 assembled engines.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

New M-88 on Rafale M allow to increase MTOW on CATOBAR and make easier to use it on STOBAR.

 

[zebra7]

Well, there are two variants of the uprated M88.

When the engine was introduced, development continued of course.
That is where the 9T figure came up that was an early UAE goal, their
fear running along the hot temperatures eating power line. Since however,
France opened BA 104 in Al-Dhafra and Rafales have shown they can
do the job ... including daily sorties against Daesh with heavy SCALPs.

Safran felt confident that they could reach 9T for a similar if bigger motor.
The bigger is not a huge problem though, still fitting inside the airplane if
with a new center of gravity and so new command and control "laws" but ...
you'd also need new enlarged intakes to feed that motor enough air to reach
that power output. And that is a bigger bug, requiring a full re-design of the
front of the plane. When you consider that one of the Rafale's strengths is
its high coefficient aerodynamics ( finesse, etc ), it becomes very touchy.

Two decisions came out of this situation. First, content with the power it had,
the AdlA ( / DGA ) asked for more durability at ISO power instead ( requiring no changes ).
Second, possible use of a 9T version was set back to the 2026+ MLU. If, as
most modern jets, a weight increase happens and makes a 9T output important,
the re-design could be piled on with an evolved cell with extra stealth. Doing
both at the same time saves energy and money.

Since then, Safran kept working and are now suggesting an 83 kN variant [ 8.3 T ]
without new intakes gaining from the original 75 kN and supposedly as durable.
For France, the need is not sufficient to warrant the change but depending on
what price tag the ex-SNECMA puts on it, other customers could easily choose
to have that version in their Rafales. India and UAE have a possible synergy there.

That's pretty much where things stand today.
I hope it helps, Tay.

Excellent Input, thankx buddy

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Rafale deal at final clearance level, may get go ahead soon
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Sep 08, 2016, 06.31 AM IST

NEW DELHI: It's going to be a big test for Indo-French relations as the Rafale fighter jet deal has reached the final clearance level after protracted negotiations. The price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion and Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India.

Sources told ET the deal for 36 fighter aircraft could be cleared as early as the next meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), with the defence ministry completing all formalities and negotiations with the French side.

A decision on the deal is critical for France that has suffered a setback with the leak of sensitive documents of the Scorpene submarine project, currently being executed in Mumbai.

Also, French firms have come under the scanner for donations to an NGO operated by a Delhi-based consultant. The fighter jet deal, which was first announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Paris trip in April 2015, has been stuck for over a year on pricing and offset issues. The final terms of contract are currently being vetted by the Prime Minister's Office (PMO).

Sources said the issues raised by the PMO, after a scrutiny of documents, have been clarified by the defence ministry. "Unless there are any unforeseen complications, the jet fighter contract should happen soon. The price has been substantially lowered after several rounds of tough negotiations," an official aware of the developments told ET.

As part of the deal, France will invest 50 per cent of the value of the deal in the domestic defence and aviation sectors as an offset clause. France has offered 16 critical technologies to India as part of the deal.

These technologies, which would be valued as part of the offset package, would be shared with the Defence Research and Development Organisation. The French side has also expressed its willingness to share technology and invest 1-billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, Kaveri. The plan is to develop an upgraded gas turbine to power indigenous Tejas fighters by 2020.

The French side will also assist Indian private industry in setting up a global supply chain as part of the offset plan. Among other projects, French firm Dassault is likely to set up a line in India with a private partner to manufacture major structural parts for its Falcon executive jet aircraft.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-ahead-soon/articleshow/54158710.cms?from=mdr

+++
Enjoy all.. All the thread followers know whats written in this article is there in this sticky for so so long time

I said about CCS point time and again here..

Wait for the CCS, as i said here verbal invitations are given already

Enjoy..

 

[anant_s]

The price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion

Hopefully this is a Win Win deal for both France and India!

Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India.

Heard this yesterday night in a news program.
Does anyone have idea to what sort of co-operation France has offered? If true, this would mean that France is actually honoring one of its commitment/offer in MMRCA competition to help India on Jet Engine front.
Can't be more exciting.

@Abingdonboy @Vergennes @Taygibay @Roybot

 

[Sri]

Rafale deal at final clearance level, may get go ahead soon
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Sep 08, 2016, 06.31 AM IST

NEW DELHI: It's going to be a big test for Indo-French relations as the Rafale fighter jet deal has reached the final clearance level after protracted negotiations. The price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion and Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India.

Sources told ET the deal for 36 fighter aircraft could be cleared as early as the next meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), with the defence ministry completing all formalities and negotiations with the French side.

A decision on the deal is critical for France that has suffered a setback with the leak of sensitive documents of the Scorpene submarine project, currently being executed in Mumbai.

Also, French firms have come under the scanner for donations to an NGO operated by a Delhi-based consultant. The fighter jet deal, which was first announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Paris trip in April 2015, has been stuck for over a year on pricing and offset issues. The final terms of contract are currently being vetted by the Prime Minister's Office (PMO).

Sources said the issues raised by the PMO, after a scrutiny of documents, have been clarified by the defence ministry. "Unless there are any unforeseen complications, the jet fighter contract should happen soon. The price has been substantially lowered after several rounds of tough negotiations," an official aware of the developments told ET.

As part of the deal, France will invest 50 per cent of the value of the deal in the domestic defence and aviation sectors as an offset clause. France has offered 16 critical technologies to India as part of the deal.

These technologies, which would be valued as part of the offset package, would be shared with the Defence Research and Development Organisation. The French side has also expressed its willingness to share technology and invest 1-billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, Kaveri. The plan is to develop an upgraded gas turbine to power indigenous Tejas fighters by 2020.

The French side will also assist Indian private industry in setting up a global supply chain as part of the offset plan. Among other projects, French firm Dassault is likely to set up a line in India with a private partner to manufacture major structural parts for its Falcon executive jet aircraft.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-ahead-soon/articleshow/54158710.cms?from=mdr

+++
Enjoy all.. All the thread followers know whats written in this article is there in this sticky for so so long time
View attachment 332297

I said about CCS point time and again here..

Wait for the CCS, as i said here verbal invitations are given already
View attachment 332298

Enjoy..

The 7th point is of great interest. will there be any Make in India deal signed along with off-shelf? I mean what is the total numbers discussed ( 36 +??).
Thanks in Advance...

 

[PARIKRAMA]

The 7th point is of great interest. will there be any Make in India deal signed along with off-shelf? I mean what is the total numbers discussed ( 36 +??).
Thanks in Advance...

We have to wait for strategic partnership to be unveiled by DM MP properly. The Make In India is there surely. But formally that will be announced by next year march.

The numbers are too huge bcz its both IAF and IN combined. As i said earlier the Rafales in India over the time will cost at an average of around Rs 540 Crs fully loaded with weapons when its made from Indian plant. So no one will like to miss that opportunity there, unless someone betters this deal with more benefits

he price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion and Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India.

Even though mind says its Euro, i hope as per my heart it turns out $
Euro 7.25 Bn - Mind
$7.25 Bn - heart