Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Abingdonboy]

The Mk2 is gone bro. The air chief has confirmed that they won't be buying it.

Navy is still pursuing it and the IAF will likely get "re-interested" once all this Rafale drama is over and things have settled down.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Big plans afoot. I wonder what's the status of NOPV.


Hmm, what's the kind of deal between DCNS and Brazil then? They are getting a SSN.

And even the Jaitpur deal seems off. I wonder how will we pull off anything like that.

Why this new id.. What happened to previous one?

You are talking about this the SN-Br project

Brazil reveals submarine design details at LAAD 2013. The PWR reactor design for the Brazilian Navy’s future nuclear-powered submarine (SN-Br) has been completed with assistance from France. A model of the design, known as the 2131-R, and an actual-size combustion element were on display at the navy’s stand at the LAAD exhibition in Rio de Janeiro. The navy had two separate designs of the SN-Br on display at the stand. A model from the navy’s technology centre in Sao Paulo showed a submarine divided into seven blocks with the PWR reactor positioned amidships eight torpedoes situated at the front of the boat. Navy literature showed a second design with just two torpedo tubes but including six vertical launch missile tubes in the front section of the boat. This version is to displace 4,000t and have a length of 100m and diameter of 9.8m.

As far as i understand the reactor is based on Rubis design and is much lower in rating in 48 MW

Choosing French technology

Traditionally, the countries that have nuclear submarines developed their designs on the basis of several stages of the development of their conventional submarines. Many took years to develop that technology. Today, just two countries produce both conventional and nuclear subs: France and Russia. The Brazilian Navy visited both countries, studied their designs, surveyed their clients worldwide, and concluded that France was the most solid partner for Brazil.

In the first place, this is because France was willing to transfer technology for both the design of a nuclear-powered submarine – in this case, internal structures and systems (except for the nuclear reactor, which was developed by the Navy itself) – and conventional Scorpene subs.

In the second place, the conventional Scorpene sub is different from other conventional models because it includes security concepts similar to those used in its nuclear counterpart (such as sensor, combat and motor cooling systems, etc.). This is because the design is derived from the Rubis/Amethyste, another French nuclear submarine. Brazil’s participation in the construction of the first the four Scorpene submarines will begin in 2011. That vessel will be completed by 2015.
Issue #176 | A dream comes to the surface

 

[Abingdonboy]

Big plans afoot. I wonder what's the status of NOPV.

First one to be inducted in June 2016 AFAIK.

 

[randomradio]

Navy is still pursuing it and the IAF will likely get "re-interested" once all this Rafale drama is over and things have settled down.

I don't know about the future, but as of today, the air chief himself said they will no longer recognize the Mk2 program. Right now, they will buy 120+ LCA and then upgrade them as time passes.

Anyway-
Indigenous Fighter Aircraft to be a Reality Soon, Says Parrikar | Page 2

 

[Abingdonboy]

Ok here is the ppt.. This is Reliance ADAG group plan under MII.. It seems ADAG group has really drawn a big war chest for their plans..
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Bro, start a new thread and tag as many people as possible for this PPT, it's really quite something. We are witnessing a revolution in front of our eyes, no one could have imagined even 4 years ago that the private sector would have such ambitious plans for the Indian market.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Bro, start a new thread and tag as many people as possible for this PPT, it's really quite something. We are witnessing a revolution in front of our eyes, no one could have imagined even 4 years ago that the private sector would have such ambitious plans for the Indian market.

okies, what do you think i should put in title?

 

[Abingdonboy]

okies, what do you think i should put in title?

"Reliance presents its ambitious Make in India plan?" something like that maybe bro?

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

Why this new id.. What happened to previous one?

You are talking about this the SN-Br project

Brazil reveals submarine design details at LAAD 2013. The PWR reactor design for the Brazilian Navy’s future nuclear-powered submarine (SN-Br) has been completed with assistance from France. A model of the design, known as the 2131-R, and an actual-size combustion element were on display at the navy’s stand at the LAAD exhibition in Rio de Janeiro. The navy had two separate designs of the SN-Br on display at the stand. A model from the navy’s technology centre in Sao Paulo showed a submarine divided into seven blocks with the PWR reactor positioned amidships eight torpedoes situated at the front of the boat. Navy literature showed a second design with just two torpedo tubes but including six vertical launch missile tubes in the front section of the boat. This version is to displace 4,000t and have a length of 100m and diameter of 9.8m.

As far as i understand the reactor is based on Rubis design and is much lower in rating in 48 MW

Choosing French technology

Traditionally, the countries that have nuclear submarines developed their designs on the basis of several stages of the development of their conventional submarines. Many took years to develop that technology. Today, just two countries produce both conventional and nuclear subs: France and Russia. The Brazilian Navy visited both countries, studied their designs, surveyed their clients worldwide, and concluded that France was the most solid partner for Brazil.

In the first place, this is because France was willing to transfer technology for both the design of a nuclear-powered submarine – in this case, internal structures and systems (except for the nuclear reactor, which was developed by the Navy itself) – and conventional Scorpene subs.

In the second place, the conventional Scorpene sub is different from other conventional models because it includes security concepts similar to those used in its nuclear counterpart (such as sensor, combat and motor cooling systems, etc.). This is because the design is derived from the Rubis/Amethyste, another French nuclear submarine. Brazil’s participation in the construction of the first the four Scorpene submarines will begin in 2011. That vessel will be completed by 2015.

Okie, so we cannot simply say that we cannot get a French reactor or their assistance but the problem may be that the French might be unwilling to give out their higher powered PWRs.

PS:- Had some fun in thread about terrorists killed in Kashmir, seems like some admins didn't take it easily.

First one to be inducted in June 2016 AFAIK.

Hmm, its their first such order..... some delay can be accepted , but its much more than a little delay.

Personally speaking, we should have had stuck to GSL to deliver a second batch of 4 more OPVs and simultaneously given orders to pipavav.

@PARIKRAMA
In your post #2848 why is " Surface to surface missile mentioned. Any such project going private sector way ?

Seems like I cannot quote links

 

[Masterhunter]

The Mk2 is gone bro. The air chief has confirmed that they won't be buying it.



He says 4 years and a squadron will be delivered.

LSA has a huge IWB. It's air to air loadout matches the PAK FA, 16 missiles. LCA can barely carry 4 without sacrificing range and still get outranged on LSA's internal fuel alone.

Read that thread, it's 3 pages of practically an interview.

I have read it... And I feel most of it is fiction...
See it's a light stealth aircraft..
He says so many things present in it which seems impossible in a LIGHT stealth aircraft

1. One Internal central bay and two side bays holding six missiles... And then eight external hard points and two wingtips.... A total of 16 hardpoints...Even su30/rafalr don't have 16 hard points.. Having eight hard points with three internal bay for a light aircraft seems impossible. Even PaKFA has six hard points.. Four external hard points with three IWB is more feasible for a light aircraft.
2. Payload of 7.5 tons ...for a light aircraft is too much... It won't remain a light aircraft then.
3. Ej230 will be more fuel consumer than F404/414... So it needs more internal fuel if needs to be having combat radius in range of rafale.. About minimum of 5-6 ton fuel..
4. Airframe to carry 5-6 ton fuel and 7.5 ton of payload ..that is total of 12.5-13.5 ton...it needs to be decent big and strong ..a minimum weight of 7.5-8 tons with Max use of composites.. Hence total weight will be about 20-21 tons... At this weight it is no longer a light aircraft but a medium aircraft
4. It's single engine... Ej230 gives wet thrust of 102 KN... With 20 ton weight it's highly underpowered.. It won't supercruise.
5. Central internal weapon bay of size of PAKFA... How can u create a weapon bay of size of PAKFA and still make it a smaller plane and call it light? 4. 25 M of IWB is too big for a small light weight aircraft.
PAKFA is 19 M in length while LCA is 14M

That why I felt the specs are all haywire..... I feel it's impossible to achieve in a light aircraft.... Whatever any one will say .

If the designer would have said that the load will be 4-5 tons, fuel range 4-5 tons.. And combat range of 600-700 kms.. And all up weight of 15 ton or so.. With four hard points externally. Then I might have agreed..

Lastly, going to beijing and come back with su30... Joke of the week...
U are comparing combat radius of light fighter with heavy fighter..
It's too good to be true... It looks like a typical DRDO work culture... Speak more than u can achieve..

@Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 002 @randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay

 

[randomradio]

2. Payload of 7.5 tons ...for a light aircraft is too much... It won't remain a light aircraft then.

It's like a LCA Mk2 with 120KN engines. The F-16A had a payload of 6.5 tons on a 110KN engine. The LSA has a more powerful engine.

3. Ej230 will be more fuel consumer than F404/414... So it needs more internal fuel if needs to be having combat radius in range of rafale.. About minimum of 5-6 ton fuel..

Fuel fraction is 0.37. Don't ask me the math. No idea. Likely includes the CFTs, so I went wrong with that one.

4. Airframe to carry 5-6 ton fuel and 7.5 ton of payload ..that is total of 12.5-13.5 ton...it needs to be decent big and strong ..a minimum weight of 7.5-8 tons with Max use of composites.. Hence total weight will be about 20-21 tons... At this weight it is no longer a light aircraft but a medium aircraft

It is about the same as a F-16B50 if you ask me. So I think you roughly got the empty weight right. He doesn't have any plan to use composites like on the LCA. He plans to use a mix of metal and composites.

4. It's single engine... Ej230 gives wet thrust of 102 KN... With 20 ton weight it's highly underpowered.. It won't supercruise.

70/120KN.

Lastly, going to beijing and come back with su30... Joke of the week...

The fuel fraction with CFTs is higher than the Su-30.

Overall impression: Gotta see it to believe it. So even I'm on the fence regarding that. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[sathya]

Is it a single engine aircraft ?

Let's forget about L - light .

----------------------------

Is it like a Aura but with a pilot ?


----------------------

EF engine with TVC
Israeli electronics,
Take off even from roads
7.5 ton payload
Large fuel + CFT
16 hard points
4 years time line
Power by wire

NO matter how hard I think... Not possible in 4 years .

Is it possible VSTOL account got hacked ?
And someone playing games?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Okie, so we cannot simply say that we cannot get a French reactor or their assistance but the problem may be that the French might be unwilling to give out their higher powered PWRs.

PS:- Had some fun in thread about terrorists killed in Kashmir, seems like some admins didn't take it easily.



Hmm, its their first such order..... some delay can be accepted , but its much more than a little delay.

Personally speaking, we should have had stuck to GSL to deliver a second batch of 4 more OPVs and simultaneously given orders to pipavav.

@PARIKRAMA
In your post #2848 why is " Surface to surface missile mentioned. Any such project going private sector way ?

Seems like I cannot quote links

What i had always understood is they will do SAM missile works with Antlei Almaz /Russia for S-400, Tor 1M and Pantsirs..
For surface to Surface via Kilo upgrade program perhaps Klub missile manufacturing or maintainence work, also perhaps a tie up from other CMs like Brahmos for Pipavav yard programs

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

He says 4 years and a squadron will be delivered.

Indian time or normal time?

 

[sathya]

Indian time or normal time?

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Indian time or normal time?

In India there is a Joke
IST actually refers to Indian Standard Time

But we say that IST means Indian STRETCHABLE Time