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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

so when can india conclude the deal then. i have lost track of it's negotiations.

It should get concluded in next 2-3 weeks. Payment provision made for either end of March or April. March will imply within FY16 but fiscal prudence is now needed as RBI governor wants to see the fiscal management of GOI before further rate cuts needed for growth trigger. So the other date is April 2016 for payment based on FY17 or change in financial year..

Beyond that would need either more deal completion complications or serious financial strains which will effect all modernization..
 
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It should get concluded in next 2-3 weeks. Payment provision made for either end of March or April. March will imply within FY16 but fiscal prudence is now needed as RBI governor wants to see the fiscal management of GOI before further rate cuts needed for growth trigger. So the other date is April 2016 for payment based on FY17 or change in financial year..

Beyond that would need either more deal completion complications or serious financial strains which will effect all modernization..
my guy told me late feb early march-3-4 weeks from 25th jan.
why are you uys going for an americain aesa for? and which radar are you going for?

A source citing an American AESA on the Raffy is worth between nothing and slightly less than that!
Enough said!

Tay.
why will it be worthless
 
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There is no point in going for American AESA .. Probably Typo..

GaN AESA of Israeli make makes more sense than this..,

why would India go for it ? When France already offering GaN AESA ..
 
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Would you lose a second on a news piece saying the Typhie is getting an American AESA?
When we know where the Captor CAESAR is coming from ... in Europe?

At some point, one has to stick to informations by qualified people, it cuts the BS!
I don't get my health news from the National Enquirer nor Alex Jones but medical professional journals.
Something similar is at play in my attitude here ... :partay:

Good day mate, Tay.
 
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++++++++++++++
Update... Source based..

Rafale deal is a big go....


(Take with bags of salt :p: )

  1. Base year negotiation 2015 fixed finally from earlier negotiated 2011
  2. Price brought down to Euro 8Bn from initial Euro 11.5 Bn (with 2011 as base year)
  3. Further negotiations to trim down price to Euro 7.2-7.3 Bn implying another 700-800 Mn Euros
  4. The customizations may see some more cost trimming
  5. The support package + infrastructure package getting re negotiated.
  6. Jet+Weapons loaded is capped at Euro 100 Mn or Euro 3.6 Bn
  7. Effectively another 3.6 Bn is for support +infra+ training+ TCO+ spares+customizations+others
  8. Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base
  9. Delivery schedule from 36 months from 2019 (3 years) and will be completed 2022 (5.5 years)
  10. MII part resolved. India has informed French Government MII needs to be done urgently owing to other competitive offers.. The surprise competitors are - Eurofighter (backed by Germany and UK) and F18s (USA/Boeing). Decision will be and implemented max to max by December 2016 for work to start immediately.. (any 1 of the 3 with first preference being Dassault)
  11. 10th point.. Shocker competition.... Angela Merkel on her last visit emphasized less on Submarines more on EF make in India.. Seems sweeter includes an AESA radar of NG for complete TOT + other considerable goodies with tech sharing for EJ 200 and EJ230 joint effort with TVC to power AMCA.
  12. It seems DM MP has personally informed Jean-Yves Le Drian about it when they met in New Delhi and said GOI wants a firm MII decision implemented by max Dec 2016 with start of work immediately. The EF offer in hush hush mode is the second trump card besides Russian FGFA program+ more MKI. DA seems to have fallen in line for threat of losing the lucrative 200+ jet market and that too to a European Rival...

So India's final cost working expected around Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3Bn or at Euro/INR 77 its Rs 55450 Crs - Rs 56210 Crs
++++++++++++++++++++++++


@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @Nilgiri @cerberus @anant_s
Shocker new things.. Seems EF MII is a big trump card which GOI/MOD held very close for ultimate act for Negotiations... But all this is more or less resolved..

Good to see MII part clarity for starting by Dec 2016.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here comes the
confirmation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
@PARIKRAMA clearly the MII component with 100+ jets to be made in India is critical- without it the off the shelf purchase of 36+18 jets is worse than meaningless- it is actually self-harming and counter intuative.But now I am just looking for some tangible headway somewhere- get this govt-govt off the shelf deal concluded and then move onto the MII part, at least with that out of the way you will get some serious momentum going and there really is no way back. Once the door is open, with the way the Indian military works, there is no going back.


That said, 2019 as the timeline for the first Rafale deliveries is highly disappointing, I thought Dassualt were ramping up production and were commited to delivering the first Rafale to India within 2 years? The PM stated that the off the shelf procurements were to meet the immediate needs of the IAF- 2019 is still painfully far away.


And with that in mind, if we are to see the MII part completed by December 2016 (which itself is far too long away for these idiots in the media to keep their mouths shut) then when will the MII facilties be set up? When will the first Rafale made in India roll off the prodction line, even my most optimistic projections say it will only be 2021- at the earliest, which again is very far away. It is for this reason I had hoped Dassualt would accomadate the IAF's urgent requirements and churn out those 36-54 as fast as possible to offset the gruelling and time consuming process that is going to be setting up a brand new production line in India, that to me seemed like the entire point of expanding the off the shelf provision from 18 to 54.


++ Any clarity on which Indian partner Dassualt is going to tie up with to set up shop in India?
 
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That said, 2019 as the timeline for the first Rafale deliveries is highly disappointing, I thought Dassualt were ramping up production and were commited to delivering the first Rafale to India within 2 years? The PM stated that the off the shelf procurements were to meet the immediate needs of the IAF- 2019 is still painfully far away.
Practical issue as Safran needs time.. Engine up-gradation or the more correct work customization needs around 24-30 Months.. It seems prelim work has started in late 2015 so optimistically another 24 months or by 2018 end.. the work started as they are the building blocks for original Safran upgrades anyways planned for F4 or now called F3R2. Thus its practically not possible for Indian customized edition for 2017 delivery. The new delivery should start around 2019..

If India opts not for customization then i do see an opportunity for 2 jets in 2017 and then so on with 2018,19,20 for full delivery.

And with that in mind, if we are to see the MII part completed by December 2016 (which itself is far too long away for these idiots in the media to keep their mouths shut) then when will the MII facilties be set up? When will the first Rafale made in India roll off the prodction line, even my most optimistic projections say it will only be 2021- at the earliest, which again is very far away. It is for this reason I had hoped Dassualt would accomadate the IAF's urgent requirements and churn out those 36-54 as fast as possible to offset the gruelling and time consuming process that is going to be setting up a brand new production line in India, that to me seemed like the entire point of expanding the off the shelf provision from 18 to 54.

Production line will take 30-36 months so counting from say December 2016 its expected to be finished by Dec 2019 with production start from Jan 2020. If they finish it quicker then perhaps earlier..

I think there is a plan for a squadron lease or half squadron lease from FrAF for operationally starting the Indian squadron. Not sure if its agreed or not as FrAF jets are atm busy with campaigns..

You are going to see heavy paid media war of words soon... Its going to paint town red and against Dassault...

Any clarity on which Indian partner Dassualt is going to tie up with to set up shop in India?

Mukesh Ambani is favorite among financial circles for having a deep understanding with Dassault.

Seems Fixed wings jets will be handled by Mukesh Ambani group
Rotary Wings, Ships, Submarines, missiles will be handled by Anil Ambani group..

The joke doing rounds is INS Vishal may be built by Anil Ambani Defense company, may have Mukesh Ambani Jets....
Thats how the brothers going to dominate and expand into Defense manufacturing...

TBH some senior ppl in industry say, Mukesh Ambani wants a stake in Marcel Dassault group. He wishes to be a big player in aircraft business particularly with Rafale and Falcon jets.. I think whatever Dassault quotes, Mukesh Ambani will negotiate but surely buy.....
 
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I was going to intervene on this
I thought Dassualt were ramping up production and were commited to delivering the first Rafale to India within 2 years?
but PariK beat me to it.

First one has to remember that the Rafale production line was built initially for 33 planes per year.
The 11 minimum aircrafts per annum was the warrantee of buys by the French govt. Below that,
each plane costs more to build and Dassault would see it as a part time job if you will. Exports were
to be the adjustment variable allowing the French government to buy less. 6 sold abroad equals 6
deliveries delayed and money for them along with it. There were still 26 Rafales to be received in the
present programmation law running till 2019. 11 came last year and 4 will have come this year not
including the F1 refits on their own ttimeline. None are coming for 3 years except those borrowed by
Egypt that will trickle in at some point in there. 2020 is when the last tranche planned so far starts.

When Trappier announced the ramping up, he said it would take up to 3 years to reach full speed.
The reason for this is that from the first hole drilled on the first component to the roll-off takes 3 years.
Thus, ramping up means that those at the beginning of the chain have begun producing more already
but the full speed will show in number of aircrafts delivered in 32/33 months : 3 per month. Because of
that delay, Dassault had to hike production prior to signing. It is good for Indians that want this fighter
to understand that Egypt and Qatar having already signed orders above what the line could deliver :
24 + 24 = 48 over 3 years that equal 33 at 11 per year means 15 left or 18 months of production, the
ramping up had to come from another order. And there are 2 prospects : UAE & you Bharatis! o_O

See what I mean? That means that whomever signs first may get normal delivery ( speedy ones are taken, first come ... )
and the other will get a 36 months wait! Which spot do you want?
Of course, if either deal fails, the other will still get its first birds in 2019 but with deliveries of up to ...
20+ per year in 2020 and beyond as a full production of 33, with previous deals served, allows on top
of the
11 that the French Forces should again receive.

For a 36 planes deal in that context, total delivery will take a mere 20 months! :jester:

Interesting tale of the tape, wouldn't you say? Tay.
 
. . .
++++++++++++++
Update... Source based..

Rafale deal is a big go....


(Take with bags of salt :p: )

  1. Base year negotiation 2015 fixed finally from earlier negotiated 2011
  2. Price brought down to Euro 8Bn from initial Euro 11.5 Bn (with 2011 as base year)
  3. Further negotiations to trim down price to Euro 7.2-7.3 Bn implying another 700-800 Mn Euros
  4. The customizations may see some more cost trimming
  5. The support package + infrastructure package getting re negotiated.
  6. Jet+Weapons loaded is capped at Euro 100 Mn or Euro 3.6 Bn
  7. Effectively another 3.6 Bn is for support +infra+ training+ TCO+ spares+customizations+others
  8. Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base
  9. Delivery schedule from 36 months from 2019 (3 years) and will be completed 2022 (5.5 years)
  10. MII part resolved. India has informed French Government MII needs to be done urgently owing to other competitive offers.. The surprise competitors are - Eurofighter (backed by Germany and UK) and F18s (USA/Boeing). Decision will be and implemented max to max by December 2016 for work to start immediately.. (any 1 of the 3 with first preference being Dassault)
  11. 10th point.. Shocker competition.... Angela Merkel on her last visit emphasized less on Submarines more on EF make in India.. Seems sweeter includes an AESA radar of NG for complete TOT + other considerable goodies with tech sharing for EJ 200 and EJ230 joint effort with TVC to power AMCA.
  12. It seems DM MP has personally informed Jean-Yves Le Drian about it when they met in New Delhi and said GOI wants a firm MII decision implemented by max Dec 2016 with start of work immediately. The EF offer in hush hush mode is the second trump card besides Russian FGFA program+ more MKI. DA seems to have fallen in line for threat of losing the lucrative 200+ jet market and that too to a European Rival...

So India's final cost working expected around Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3Bn or at Euro/INR 77 its Rs 55450 Crs - Rs 56210 Crs
++++++++++++++++++++++++


@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @Nilgiri @cerberus @anant_s
Shocker new things.. Seems EF MII is a big trump card which GOI/MOD held very close for ultimate act for Negotiations... But all this is more or less resolved..

Good to see MII part clarity for starting by Dec 2016.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here comes the
confirmation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

nuclear capable Rafale , fitted with American AESA deal set to close at lower price of Rs 60,000cr

India and France are expected to close the purchase of 36 Rafale multi-role fighters from Dassault Aviation with the signing of an inter-governmental agreement including the commercial contract between the two countries next month. The deal is expected to be clinched at about Rs 60,000 crore, less than what was offered by France to India during the previous UPA government with 2011 being the base price year.

Top government sources said after the initial price of 11.6 billion euros (Rs 85,000 crore) with 2015 as the base year, Dassault brought it down to 8 billion euros (Rs 65,000 crore) with 2011 being the base year for fixing the cost per fighter.

the base years got reversed here 11.6 Bn as per 2011 and 8 Bn as per 2015


This would have been the price of 36 fighters had India purchased planes at the cost quoted in the cancelled 126 multi-medium role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract in which Rafale had emerged as the lowest bidder in comparison with Eurofighter.

“During Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in April 2015, it was bilaterally decided that the cost of each fighter would be 10-20% less than what was being offered in the MMRCA project; we expect the jet manufacturer to further reduce price and bring it down by another 700-800 million euros before the contract is signed,” a senior government official said.

Thats in line with what i said so expected price is Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3 Bn


However, the defence ministry under Manohar Parrikar is expected to further hammer down the cost by opting out of unnecessary or what are called “over-specified” add-ons in Rafale fighters as per the initial MMRCA contract.

“We expect the deal to close around Rs 60,000 crore with Rafale with first deliveries in 2019. The French company also has a separate option of manufacturing the fighter in the country under the Make in India rubric. For that Rafale will have to contest with Boeing F-18 and Eurofighter in case their respective governments allow them to manufacture these platforms in India,” a senior official said.

Thats the 1 out of 3 i said


The deal was scheduled to be concluded during French president Francois Hollande’s visit as the guest of honour at the Republic Day celebrations on January 26 but was delayed due to protracted negotiations between both sides.

The nuclear-capable Rafale will be fitted with American AESA (active electronically scanned phased array) radar, top-of-the-line beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapon systems.


American AESA -on Rafales
View attachment 292931

@Taygibay @Vauban You will love hearing American Aesa on Rafale

You are gonna give someone a seizure at the end there lol.
 
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IAF hunt for new jet has started soon after kargil war,15 years has passed since & we are yet to sign even the contract. The latest amount is 9billionUSD,we could have allocate a fraction of this 9billion for R&D for new twin engine fighter. 15 years is enough to devolop a decent fighter.
 
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@PARIKRAMA
How good is an upgraded Jaguar in its intended role in today's senario ?

Darin 3 upgrade is good enough for the role its envisioned.. I am saying this based on points below

  • Jags has already completed two MLU, and is now heading for their third MLU.
  • Darin (Display Attack Ranging Inertial Navigation) is one of the new feature added to the existing avionics package
  • Jag currently lacks a reliable Radar system instead uses the IRST & OLS(Optical Locator Systems).
  • India is currently equipped with three different variants, the maritime version charged with the surveillance of the coast and the Deep Penetration bomber currently in use with the Air force and the one under Strategic Forces Command for tactical nuclear strikes.
  • The air force version is equipped with ground attack munitions, Martel ARM along with R 550 Magic Air to Air Missiles and two on board cannons.
  • Primarily used for deep penetration, SEAD DEAD and CAS
  • In lo lo lo profile mission with two Martel ARM missiles it can strike targets beyond 1000 km.
  • The Darin III allows the jags new weapons like AGM 88 HARM missiles for SEAD role, more powerful LGB/PGM's with CBU-105 (Censor Fuzed Weapon).
  • The Jaguar comes with RLG inertial navigation and a digital terrain mapping system which is a very good alternative to terrain hugging and avoidance Radar systems.
  • The Jaguar also comes with Israeli Litening pods for better recon and pin point ground attack missions with using of LGB/PGM. The DARIN III comes with IADS suites which allow the Jaguar escape from any kind of Airborne and Ground threats.
  • The Maritime version comes with Radar named Agave which can fire Sea Eagle Anti Ship missile, a primary maritime strike aircraft for IAF.
  • This can be upgraded into DARIN III Standard with newer Israeli ELTA Radar, which is capable to fire the new Generation Harpoon Anti Shipping Missiles from Jaguar IM Aircraft.
  • The SFC Jaguars comes with nuclear strike Missions. More than 20+ Aircraft's are under SFC control and are capable of carrying out nuclear Gravity bombs.

article-0-14ED94F3000005DC-931_634x480.jpg


Source
SEPECAT Jaguar is India's only tactical nuclear carrying and Ground Attack Aircraft — Defence Update | Defence Update
Life of Soldiers: Jaguar DARIN III


Of course if you compare say a principal DPSA with similar features and similar mission profiles, the list of choices are very limiting.. In all practical sense, a Mini Awacs like MKI acting as director and escorting Jags is more than enough for their role. I am very happy if Jags role can be taken over by Rafales.. Practically it frees my escortee role and allows me a much wider usage of assets..

But then for the cost Jags provide a great value for money.... Those 2 guns are good enough when they fire to rip many things to shred...
 
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