Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[arslank03]

From Bon Plans post:

”Though the Rafale-M does not have foldable wings, Dassault has agreed to make design changes—like tweaking the pylon structure of the aircraft—to make it suitable for the Vikrant. This enabled it to clear the Navy's technical parameters.”

Changing the pylon structure does not change the width of the aircraft, but it certainly allows removable wingtips like mentioned several years ago.
Those wingtips supposedly would take 15 minutes to refit to the aircraft once on the flight deck.

15 mins per aircraft sounds horrible if needed to be launched at a high rate

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

15 mins per aircraft sounds horrible if needed to be launched at a high rate

Of course, but since this was the thinking several years ago, and Dassault might have found a better solution. Only time will tell.
It is clear that the current Rafale-M would not work as is.

The effect is latency. If an elevator can bring up a new aircraft every three minutes, it will take 3+15 minutes before the first aircraft can be launched. After that, the carrier can launch a new aircraft at the rate of the elevator assuming five aircrafts can be stored on deck.

I do not know the exact timing of elevators and launches. You can easily with different timing get into a situation where you are limited by the deck space.

Obviously it is going to take time to remove those wingtips as well, and that will limit the rate you can bring aircrafts down below flight deck.

 

[arslank03]

Of course, but since this was the thinking several years ago, and Dassault might have found a better solution. Only time will tell.
It is clear that the current Rafale-M would not work as is.

The effect is latency. If an elevator can bring up a new aircraft every three minutes, it will take 3+15 minutes before the first aircraft can be launched. After that, the carrier can launch a new aircraft at the rate of the elevator assuming five aircrafts can be stored on deck.

I do not know the exact timing of elevators and launches. You can easily with different timing get into a situation where you are limited by the deck space.

Obviously it is going to take time to remove those wingtips as well, and that will limit the rate you can bring aircrafts down below flight deck.

nvm the rafale CAN fit on the elevator

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

nvm the rafale CAN fit on the elevator

The posting by @BON PLAN clearly indicates that the Rafale M had to be modified to fit the elevator. Until we know exactly what modifications are needed, we cannot judge the impact on flight operations.

 

[kaykay]

The posting by @BON PLAN clearly indicates that the Rafale M had to be modified to fit the elevator. Until we know exactly what modifications are needed, we cannot judge the impact on flight operations.

Just asking out of curiosity, they'll still able to fly without wingtip? Right? So suppose there is some issue and It needed to be in the air asap, It can still fly (albeit with 2 less missiles)? Just a noob question.

 

[Gomig-21]

Journalists who can't figure out how the problem suddenly vanished.

I think I know who is more professional of the two- those journalists that had raised this so called "issue" and have now gone mum, versus the IN, which never once mentioned anything about dimensions of the lifts being an issue.

Imagine the nerve. Damn journalists lol. To think there is even the remote possibility that a major air force & navy would actually miss or overlook such a critical factor is pure insanity. To even question it is an insult of gargantuan proportion! To claim the Indian government, navy and entire brass of what is one of the strongest and most powerful militaries in the world would purchase 26 Rafale Ms for $8 billion to station on its multi-million-dollar aircraft carrier and somehow miss or neglect to check if it fits in the elevators!?!? Talk about dumbfounded loool! Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Imagine the nerve. Damn journalists lol. To think there is even the remote possibility that a major air force & navy would actually miss or overlook such a critical factor is pure insanity. To even question it is an insult of gargantuan proportion! To claim the Indian government, navy and entire brass of what is one of the strongest and most powerful militaries in the world would purchase 26 Rafale Ms for $8 billion to station on its multi-million-dollar aircraft carrier and somehow miss or neglect to check if it fits in the elevators!?!? Talk about dumbfounded loool! Absolutely ridiculous.

The journalists pointed out that the Rafale M would not fit as is.
That Dassault are offering a modified Rafale M is evidence that they were correct.
The question is not if the modified Rafale M will fit or not.
The question is if the modification will have any drawbacks.

 

[BON PLAN]

Just asking out of curiosity, they'll still able to fly without wingtip? Right? So suppose there is some issue and It needed to be in the air asap, It can still fly (albeit with 2 less missiles)? Just a noob question.

I think it is possible, but you loose the possibility to carry 2 AAM.

 

[Puffin]

I think it is possible, but you loose the possibility to carry 2 AAM.

No you cannot. You change the aerodynamics and the planes behaviour would be different leading to catastrophic failure.

Its the stupidity of asking the SAME QUESTION first propounded by a stupid journalist. THE PLANE FITS THE ELEVATOR. NO NAVY WOULD MAKE THE CHILDISH ERROR OF BUYING PLANES THAT DO NOT FIT THE ELEVATOR. THE NAVY HAS CATAGORICALLY CONFIRMED THAT IT FITS THE ELEVATOR AND THIS DISCUSSION IS CONTINUED BY MORONS ON PDF.

 

[BON PLAN]

No you cannot. You change the aerodynamics and the planes behaviour would be different leading to catastrophic failure.

All but not sure. The wingtips are made to smooth the aerodynamics vortex at the end of the wing : nothing catastrophic, just to reduce a little bit the drag, and to carry a air to air missile.

 

[Gomig-21]

The journalists pointed out that the Rafale M would not fit as is.
That Dassault are offering a modified Rafale M is evidence that they were correct.

Where does it say it won't fit as is?

And where does it say the modified version will get removable wing tips? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard TBH. Can you source that please.

BTW, there were several other "journalists" who wrote that the modifications include foldable wings, a longer airframe for landing on carriers, and a tail hook for arrested landings on a carrier. The M already has a tailhook.

So here they're claiming Dassault will actually do all the work it takes to make the delta wings operational on the existing airframe for a purchase of 26 aircraft? Maybe that explains why they're charging $8 billion for 26 jets. But removable wingtips? I seriously don't think so. The notion that it was "overlooked" or they missed it or whatever is also ridiculous.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Where does it say it won't fit as is?

The lift size of INS Vikrant is 10x14 meters. So the width is 10 meters.
The width of the Rafale M is 10,90 meters.

And where does it say the modified version will get removable wing tips? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard TBH. Can you source that please.

This I remember from discussions on PDF a couple of years ago.

It is also claimed here

BTW, there were several other "journalists" who wrote that the modifications include foldable wings, a longer airframe for landing on carriers, and a tail hook for arrested landings on a carrier. The M already has a tailhook.

So here they're claiming Dassault will actually do all the work it takes to make the delta wings operational on the existing airframe for a purchase of 26 aircraft? Maybe that explains why they're charging $8 billion for 26 jets. But removable wingtips? I seriously don't think so. The notion that it was "overlooked" or they missed it or whatever is also ridiculous.

10.90 meters > 10.00 meters.

That is the problem.

So either the information about the lift size is wrong, or they have done something, because the Rafale M simply does not fit on a lift 10 meters wide.

Don’t forget that you want some margin so a good lift for the Rafale should be ~13 meters wide.

 

[Gomig-21]

So either the information about the lift size is wrong, or they have done something, because the Rafale M simply does not fit on a lift 10 meters wide.

The size info sounds ligit.

Don’t forget that you want some margin so a good lift for the Rafale should be ~13 meters wide.

Yes, for sure.

I see how he worded that in the video. I think he was just mentioning that the only way it would fit would be removing the "wing tips" which is like throwing an example out there, not necessarily what would or needed to be done. Wing tips = pylons? Or more? I'm guessing he meant the pylons which would make more sense.

Judging by what India is paying for 26 aircraft... $8 billion, maybe Dassault is planning on using a good chunk of that money to develop something like folding wing tips for those 26 aircraft.

 

[BON PLAN]

The lift size of INS Vikrant is 10x14 meters. So the width is 10 meters.
The width of the Rafale M is 10,90 meters.

View attachment 948348


This I remember from discussions on PDF a couple of years ago.

It is also claimed here

10.90 meters > 10.00 meters.

That is the problem.

So either the information about the lift size is wrong, or they have done something, because the Rafale M simply does not fit on a lift 10 meters wide.

Don’t forget that you want some margin so a good lift for the Rafale should be ~13 meters wide.

Fact is that India choose the Rafale despite a 10.9m wingspan. That means that a solution have been found.
Next subject please.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Fact is that India choose the Rafale despite a 10.9m wingspan. That means that a solution have been found.
Next subject please.

The next subject is ”How do the solution look like?”