Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Ultima Thule]

India is always in the defensive mode.

Oops Let me correct myself.

India is always in the disengagement mood.





Indian Rafales cannot fire meteors.

And how do you know that they can't fire meteor???

 

[Gomig-21]

Indian Rafales cannot fire meteors.

Sure they can. It's one of several items that makes the Rafale a super deadly platform in the right hands. Its fussion cockpit with SPECTRA and even the MICAs IR & ER are all super deadly accessories that work together into a single lethal, A2A package. Then you have SCALPs which can act as both, A2A and A2G cruise missiles. Then there's HAMMERS so it's a pretty potent platform.

 

[HalfMoon]

Sure they can. It's one of several items that makes the Rafale a super deadly platform in the right hands. Its fussion cockpit with SPECTRA and even the MICAs IR & ER are all super deadly accessories that work together into a single lethal, A2A package. Then you have SCALPs which can act as both, A2A and A2G cruise missiles. Then there's HAMMERS so it's a pretty potent platform.

You are making the mistake of assuming that Egyptian Rafales are same as Indian Rafales.

And how do you know that they can't fire meteor???

Read Point 13 below.

The Rafales that IAF will receive this month will be missing the following key features. These features will be only available 6 months after all 36 fighters have been delivered.

So Technically Indian Rafales will be combat ready only after 2023. This is even as we discount pilot's skill, experience and tactics in using Rafales.

The enhanced capabilities in the Rafale fighters sought by India will see 14 India Specific Enhancements Exclusive to be incorporated to India bound 36 Rafale fighter jets which will be added by the company once the delivery of all the jets is completed by 2022. 14 India Specific Enhancements for India bound Rafale fighter jets have been listed out

1) Upgraded Sigma 95N INS: A Hybrid inertial navigation/GPS system used on the Dassault Rafale fighter jets will now support Indian developed Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS ) also called as NAVIC which provides accurate real-time positioning and timing services for India and a region extending 1,500 km around it.

2) Upgraded RBE-2 AESA-MMR: RBE2 AESA radar developed by Thales will now feature Airborne weather radar which will come in handy to predict more timely and accurate weather conditions.

3) Enhanced OBOGS: Rafale fighter jet comes fitted with an onboard oxygen generation system (OBOGS) which suppresses the need for liquid oxygen re-filling or ground support for oxygen production, but India has asked for Enhanced OBOGS system which will have enhanced capacity supporting additional filters.

4) Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS): Thales developed Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) contains Air Traffic Surveillance Awareness capabilities like a Terrain Avoidance Warning System (TAWS) which will improve the level of awareness and comfort of the flight crew.

5) Tweaked M88 Engines: Rafale fighter jet which uses M88-4E engines will receive tweaks to its fuel starter so that engine can operate at optimum even at sub-zero high altitude air base of Indian air force.

6) IESI (Integrated Electronic Standby Instruments): Thales developed IESI will be installed to operate in a particular set of environmental conditions and features accurate low airspeed measurement to cope with the flight envelope while avoiding additional weight due to external air data computer.

7) Quad-Pack Ejectors: Rafale fighter jet will be getting French developed Quad-Pack Ejectors which can be used for low weight Stand-Off Weapon both of Indian and foreign origins.

8) X-Guard fiber-optic towed decoy system: India bound Rafale fighter jets will be getting X-Guard fibre-optic towed decoy system which is designed to counter air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles. Each aircraft carries two X-Guard towed decoy and can be released when the aircraft approaches a saturated area or when a threat is detected. The most suitable countermeasure is transmitted to the X-Guard by the aircraft’s electronic countermeasures system. The fiber-optic connection to the aircraft allows accurate jamming, says Rafael.

9) Tweaks to SPECTRA Electronic Warfare System: India specific threat libraries will be added and SPECTRA EW System will also feature Low- Medium and High band apertures to deal with low observable aircraft.

10) TARGO-II Helmet Mounted Display Systems Developed by ELBIT

11) Integration of LITENING G4 Target Acquisition Pod which are already used by Indian Air Force for its frontline fighter aircraft, including the Su-30 MKI, MiG-29

12) Integration of Rafael’s SPICE 1000 EO/GPS-guided munitions

13 ) MBDA developed Meteor BVRAAM and ALARM Anti-radiation missile

14) Assistance to be provided to local Indian Public sector companies for Integration of Weapons ranging from India’s Astra BVRAAM to High-speed low drag (HSLD) bombs with the aircraft’s weapons control system. India bound Rafale fighter jets are also rumored to later get specific Indian enhancements which can come handy in the delivery of Nuclear weapons, which obviously will not be confirmed by Indian or French governments.

https://idrw.org/14-india-specific-enhancements-exclusive-to-india-bound-rafale-fighter-jets/ .

 

[Ultima Thule]

You are making the mistake of assuming that Egyptian Rafales are same as Indian Rafales.



Read Point 13 below.

The Rafales that IAF will receive this month will be missing the following key features. These features will be only available 6 months after all 36 fighters have been delivered.

So Technically Indian Rafales will be combat ready only after 2023. This is even as we discount pilot's skill, experience and tactics in using Rafales.

The enhanced capabilities in the Rafale fighters sought by India will see 14 India Specific Enhancements Exclusive to be incorporated to India bound 36 Rafale fighter jets which will be added by the company once the delivery of all the jets is completed by 2022. 14 India Specific Enhancements for India bound Rafale fighter jets have been listed out

1) Upgraded Sigma 95N INS: A Hybrid inertial navigation/GPS system used on the Dassault Rafale fighter jets will now support Indian developed Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS ) also called as NAVIC which provides accurate real-time positioning and timing services for India and a region extending 1,500 km around it.

2) Upgraded RBE-2 AESA-MMR: RBE2 AESA radar developed by Thales will now feature Airborne weather radar which will come in handy to predict more timely and accurate weather conditions.

3) Enhanced OBOGS: Rafale fighter jet comes fitted with an onboard oxygen generation system (OBOGS) which suppresses the need for liquid oxygen re-filling or ground support for oxygen production, but India has asked for Enhanced OBOGS system which will have enhanced capacity supporting additional filters.

4) Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS): Thales developed Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) contains Air Traffic Surveillance Awareness capabilities like a Terrain Avoidance Warning System (TAWS) which will improve the level of awareness and comfort of the flight crew.

5) Tweaked M88 Engines: Rafale fighter jet which uses M88-4E engines will receive tweaks to its fuel starter so that engine can operate at optimum even at sub-zero high altitude air base of Indian air force.

6) IESI (Integrated Electronic Standby Instruments): Thales developed IESI will be installed to operate in a particular set of environmental conditions and features accurate low airspeed measurement to cope with the flight envelope while avoiding additional weight due to external air data computer.

7) Quad-Pack Ejectors: Rafale fighter jet will be getting French developed Quad-Pack Ejectors which can be used for low weight Stand-Off Weapon both of Indian and foreign origins.

8) X-Guard fiber-optic towed decoy system: India bound Rafale fighter jets will be getting X-Guard fibre-optic towed decoy system which is designed to counter air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles. Each aircraft carries two X-Guard towed decoy and can be released when the aircraft approaches a saturated area or when a threat is detected. The most suitable countermeasure is transmitted to the X-Guard by the aircraft’s electronic countermeasures system. The fiber-optic connection to the aircraft allows accurate jamming, says Rafael.

9) Tweaks to SPECTRA Electronic Warfare System: India specific threat libraries will be added and SPECTRA EW System will also feature Low- Medium and High band apertures to deal with low observable aircraft.

10) TARGO-II Helmet Mounted Display Systems Developed by ELBIT

11) Integration of LITENING G4 Target Acquisition Pod which are already used by Indian Air Force for its frontline fighter aircraft, including the Su-30 MKI, MiG-29

12) Integration of Rafael’s SPICE 1000 EO/GPS-guided munitions

13 ) MBDA developed Meteor BVRAAM and ALARM Anti-radiation missile

14) Assistance to be provided to local Indian Public sector companies for Integration of Weapons ranging from India’s Astra BVRAAM to High-speed low drag (HSLD) bombs with the aircraft’s weapons control system. India bound Rafale fighter jets are also rumored to later get specific Indian enhancements which can come handy in the delivery of Nuclear weapons, which obviously will not be confirmed by Indian or French governments.

https://idrw.org/14-india-specific-enhancements-exclusive-to-india-bound-rafale-fighter-jets/ .

Article said in 2022-23 not in your over-hyped value 2024-25

 

[Thorough Pro]

Agent Crow's cousins living in the ME have been activated, expect GPS problems

 

[Figaro]

I completely disagree. I don't have a dog in this fight as I respect both countries, China and India so this is about as objective as it comes. But even though the total number is 36 aircraft, they'll be carrying arguably the best A2A missile out to date in the Meteor. The rest will be up to the Indian pilots to get used to the aircraft but my guess is they've already had months of training in France similar to what the Egyptian pilots had. So armed with SPECTRA and the Meteor, one Rafale can cause a whole lotta problems for any adversary.

The Rafael is indeed a very capable plane. But 36 is not going to change the equation at all, especially against the Chinese, which has hundreds of J-10Cs and J-16s and has the capability to produce many more at relatively cheap prices. The initial order of 108 I believe would be far more impactful.

 

[Gomig-21]

You are making the mistake of assuming that Egyptian Rafales are same as Indian Rafales.

I don't understand, sorry. Maybe I'm a little slow compared to you smart fellas or maybe I've missed some stuff you already discussed but if you're saying that Egypt has had the Rafale longer hence it can use the Meteor by now while the Indians are just receiving them and so the entire Indian Rafale package won't be ready until what.....looking at your post 2023? No. If they have a priority issue and need them, they can easily expedite them into combat with the professional they have that are very well trained. But I agree that in order to get gelled with all the coms controls, AWACs, EAD systems, IFF interogators and linking the new aircraft into all Indian AWACs assets yes, that takes a bit of time but it can be rushed and made ready sooner than if they had all the time in the world and took their time.

Read Point 13 below.
13 ) MBDA developed Meteor BVRAAM and ALARM Anti-radiation missile

So what are you trying to say? Just come out and say it, man. Enough riddles please we're tired here it's late in the east coast US and time to go to bed, dammit! lol. Are you saying because the Meteor is made by MBDA, it's not yet accessed by India? Or something else? They already have them there. They arrived before the jets lol.

 

[HalfMoon]

Article said in 2022-23 not in your over-hyped value 2024-25

No brother.

The original plan was that India will start receiving Rafales starting September 2019 but the schedule has already been delayed by at least 10 months and they are receiving the first batch at the end of July 2020.

So if you add 10 Months to September 2022 (original final Delivery date) you will get July 2023 as the new date to deliver all the 36 fighters.

Now add another 6 months for Indian enhancements. This will take it to end of January 2024 for Rafales to be ready. Now add additional time for pilots to get operationally trained, you are looking at least 2025 for them to be ready for any battle.

India-specific Rafale add-ons after delivery of all 36 fighters


There are 13 India Specific Enhancement (ISE) capabilities sought by the Indian Air Force (IAF) and they would be incorporated in batches after April 2022, an official source said.


“After the 36th jet is delivered, the first 35 aircraft would be modified in India by Dassault Aviation at the rate of seven aircraft a month so that all 36 aircraft would be of the same capability by September 2022,” the official source with knowledge of the matter said.


https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...livery-of-all-36-fighters/article25532159.ece

 

[Gomig-21]

The Rafael is indeed a very capable plane. But 36 is not going to change the equation at all, especially against the Chinese, which has hundreds of J-10Cs and J-16s and has the capability to produce many more at relatively cheap prices. The initial order of 108 I believe would be far more impactful.

India has 260 Su-30MKI also. Not to mention the rest of its formidable fleet that you just can't discount so easily. Their Mirage 2K you can actually add to the Rafales as complimentary aircraft making that number much larger and they share systems with each other such as the Talios pod, but I think the Indians are using the Israeli Lightning and not the French one. So keep that in mind. They have other potent platforms that will be assisted by the Rafales and if mission planning is well constructed, they can cause serious problems and I don't discount China whatsoever. Their fleet including their 24 Su-35 will certainly pose a lot of problems to the IAF and mainly the Su-30MKI. So it will all come down to battlefield management and who has the better library in their intel aircraft and the not just the better AWACs, but the faster one as well and India has some pretty powerful AWACs not to mention who's got the ECM warfare advnatage. There's a lot to factor in.

 

[Figaro]

Now add additional time for pilots to get operationally trained, you are looking at least 2025 for them to be ready for any battle.

By that time the J-20B with WS-15 would already be operational lol.

India has 260 Su-30MKI also. Not to mention the rest of its formidable fleet that you just can't discount so easily. Their Mirage 2K you can actually add to the Rafales as complimentary aircraft making that number much larger and they share systems with each other such as the Talios pod, but I think the Indians are using the Israeli Lightning and not the French one. So keep that in mind. They have other potent platforms that will be assisted by the Rafales and if mission planning is well constructed, they can cause serious problems and I don't discount China whatsoever. Their fleet including their 24 Su-35 will certainly pose a lot of problems to the IAF and mainly the Su-30MKI. So it will all come down to battlefield management and who has the better library in their intel aircraft and the not just the better AWACs, but the faster one as well and India has some pretty powerful AWACs not to mention who's got the ECM warfare advnatage. There's a lot to factor in.

The J-10 series, J-11B, J-16, Su-35, and not to mention the J-20 would all pose massive problems to the IAF. IMO they should have gone for more orders of Su-30MKIs or even Su-35s to satisfy the imminent 4th generation gap. There is no need to spend a huge amount of money on Rafael fighters, even if you get better BVR capabilities. The BVR capability imo should be solved by the fifth generation fighter aircraft, a la FGFA. India would have been better served to use the money to buy 36 Rafaels to purchase more flankers ... 36 is simply not enough for any meaningful upgrade against the PLAAF or PAF. If I am to be honest, I believe this purchase was highly political and am certain the Modi government received a lot of kick backs ... the purchase at such absorbent prices should not make sense to any observer.

 

[HalfMoon]

I don't understand, sorry. Maybe I'm a little slow compared to you smart fellas or maybe I've missed some stuff you already discussed but if you're saying that Egypt has had the Rafale longer hence it can use the Meteor by now while the Indians are just receiving them and so the entire Indian Rafale package won't be ready until what.....looking at your post 2023? No. If they have a priority issue and need them, they can easily expedite them into combat with the professional they have that are very well trained. But I agree that in order to get gelled with all the coms controls, AWACs, EAD systems, IFF interogators and linking the new aircraft into all Indian AWACs assets yes, that takes a bit of time but it can be rushed and made ready sooner than if they had all the time in the world and took their time.



So what are you trying to say? Just come out and say it, man. Enough riddles please we're tired here it's late in the east coast US and time to go to bed, dammit! lol. Are you saying because the Meteor is made by MBDA, it's not yet accessed by India? Or something else? They already have them there. They arrived before the jets lol.

I have already shared all the details and described why Indian Rafales will not be combat ready until 2025.

Read my post #108

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...nal-within-a-week.677890/page-8#post-12576016

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

The Rafael is indeed a very capable plane. But 36 is not going to change the equation at all, especially against the Chinese, which has hundreds of J-10Cs and J-16s and has the capability to produce many more at relatively cheap prices. The initial order of 108 I believe would be far more impactful.

We are not going to fight a full war against China.

India and China both will avoid for any such case.

But for small border incidents or air flight. Rafale will be more than enough to deal with any threat.

By that time the J-20B with WS-15 would already be operational lol.


The J-10 series, J-11B, J-16, Su-35, and not to mention the J-20 would all pose massive problems to the IAF. IMO they should have gone for more orders of Su-30MKIs or even Su-35s to satisfy the imminent 4th generation gap. There is no need to spend a huge amount of money on Rafael fighters, even if you get better BVR capabilities. The BVR capability imo should be solved by the fifth generation fighter aircraft, a la FGFA. India would have been better served to use the money to buy 36 Rafaels to purchase more flankers ... 36 is simply not enough for any meaningful upgrade against the PLAAF or PAF. If I am to be honest, I believe this purchase was highly political and am certain the Modi government received a lot of kick backs ... the purchase at such absorbent prices should not make sense to any observer.

We need to upgrade su 30 mki and equipped with new missiles with range between 150-200km.

 

[HalfMoon]

We are not going to fight a full war against China.

Correction: India does not have balls to fight with either Pakistan or China let alone with both of them at once.

India and China both will avoid for any such case.

Correction: India will avoid war with Pakistan and/or China at any cost.

But for small border incidents or air flight. Rafale will be more than enough to deal with any threat.

Correction: Rafales are useless against PAF's F-16+JF-17s and/or PLAAF's J-10/J-16/SU-35/J-20s. For small incursions and occupation of Indian land by Pakistan and China we have Surrender Modi who is always ready to pull back Indian troops to disengage from any potential confrontation and promptly issuing the following statement

"Neither is anyone inside our territory nor is any of our post captured" - Indian PM Narender Modi (aka Surrender Modi)

 

[pakistanitarzan]

Again, its not the car that wins the race, its the man behind the wheels

 

[Vanguard One]

The Rafael is indeed a very capable plane. But 36 is not going to change the equation at all, especially against the Chinese, which has hundreds of J-10Cs and J-16s and has the capability to produce many more at relatively cheap prices. The initial order of 108 I believe would be far more impactful.

Don't think it will be any good in Indian hands, they will probably shoot it down and then say they thought it was a pigeon.