What's new

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Microelectronics were not invented at the time. They most likely turned off their radar and other equipment before the blast.

Worst than that, man! The original bug creating the need had just not happened yet :
269 USS Forrestal disaster. With the war in Southeast Asia providing experience for all phases of naval operations, several carriers which normally belong to the Atlantic Fleet were occasionally routed to WESTPAC duty, and thus it was that on June 6, 1967, Forrestal left Norfolk, Virginia, for what was to be her first combat deployment.

Carrying Air Wing 17, Forrestal was the first U.S. carrier to be built from the keel up with an angled deck. She carried East Coast squadrons, two F-4B squadrons squadrons; VFs 11 and 74; VAs 106 and 46, flying A-4Es; RVAH-11, with RA-5C Vigilantes, for which the big carrier had undergone major modification for the IOIC reconnaissance intelligence system; the KA-3Bs of VAH-10; and VAW-123, flying E-2As.

Forrestal arrived on Yankee Station on July 25 and immediately began combat operations, her aircraft flying 150 sorties during the next 4 days, without the loss of a single aircraft. At 10:52 A.M. on July 29, the second launch was being readied when a Zuni rocket accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom parked on the starboard side of the flight deck aft of the island. The missile streaked across the deck into a 400 gallon belly fuel tank on a parked A-4D Skyhawk. The ruptured tank spew highly flammable JP-5 fuel onto the deck which ignited spreading flames over the flight deck under other fully loaded aircraft ready for launch. The ensuing fire caused ordinance to explode and other rockets to ignite. Spread by the wind, the flames engulfed the aft end of the stricken ship turning the flight deck into a blazing inferno.. Berthing spaces immediately below the flight deck became death traps for fifty men, while other crewmen were blown overboard by the explosion.

Nearby ships hastened to the Forrestal’s aid. The Oriskany, herself a victim of a tragic fire in October 1966, stood by to offer fire-fighting and medical aid to the larger carrier. Nearby escort vessels sprayed water on the burning Forrestal and within an hour the fire on the flight deck was under control. But secondary fires below deck took another 12 hours to contain. The damage and loss of life was catastrophic.

The four-and-a-half-acre flight deck was littered with pieces of aircraft, as men struggled to clear away bombs and ammunition, throwing the ordnance over the side. One young 130-pound lieutenant found the strength to heave a 250-pound bomb overboard.

The Zuni rocket that was accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom and started the fire is believed to have been triggered by a combination of the powerful fields at deck level from the ship’s radar and an incorrectly fitted shielded cable connector.

This summary is from here where all EMC problems are listed,
http://www.compliance-club.com/archive/bananaskins/251-272.asp
most of them being everyday civilian life occurrences of course.

But it shows why EMC is essential, what Pic meant to outline, for
a safe and secure use
of nukes : so your delivery plane is safe and
the bomb doesn't blow up too early.
Safe and secure is the Graal of mil engineers, esp. with electronics.

But you're very right on the Russians "providing an EM environment".
Link for you too on that, in case you didn't have it already then :
https://www.electronic.nu/2015/09/2...-work-for-the-jas-39-gripen-fighter-aircraft/

Good day to you, Tay.
 
Last edited:
Thanks @RPK

The article states

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Sunday hinted at the early arrival of the Rafale fighter jets from France to India.

“As per the terms of the deal, it is 36 months, but it may come earlier slightly,” Parrikar told the media at the sidelines of Swachhta rally.

India on September 23 inked a deal for direct acquisition of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France.

French Defence Minister Yves Le Drian finalised the deal, which will cost India Euros 7.8 billion along with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar.

The negotiations to buy the Rafale fighter jets came through on September 21.

The development came after the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) discussed the deal and gave the green signal to go ahead with its signing to give a crucial boost to the Indian Air Force.

In June, Parrikar had stated that the number of the fighter jets were “on path of coming to conclusion”.

Both India and France had hoped to wrap up the strategic order during French President Francois Hollande’s visit for the Republic Day celebrations in January this year, but the bargaining over the price stalled the process......
You should know that some of Thales engineering teams are starting ... a fanatic recruitment (something like +25%; + 40%), so it is unlikely that in 36 months the final standard is usable ...
 
Worst than that, man! The original bug creating the need had just not happened yet :
269 USS Forrestal disaster. With the war in Southeast Asia providing experience for all phases of naval operations, several carriers which normally belong to the Atlantic Fleet were occasionally routed to WESTPAC duty, and thus it was that on June 6, 1967, Forrestal left Norfolk, Virginia, for what was to be her first combat deployment.

Carrying Air Wing 17, Forrestal was the first U.S. carrier to be built from the keel up with an angled deck. She carried East Coast squadrons, two F-4B squadrons squadrons; VFs 11 and 74; VAs 106 and 46, flying A-4Es; RVAH-11, with RA-5C Vigilantes, for which the big carrier had undergone major modification for the IOIC reconnaissance intelligence system; the KA-3Bs of VAH-10; and VAW-123, flying E-2As.

Forrestal arrived on Yankee Station on July 25 and immediately began combat operations, her aircraft flying 150 sorties during the next 4 days, without the loss of a single aircraft. At 10:52 A.M. on July 29, the second launch was being readied when a Zuni rocket accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom parked on the starboard side of the flight deck aft of the island. The missile streaked across the deck into a 400 gallon belly fuel tank on a parked A-4D Skyhawk. The ruptured tank spew highly flammable JP-5 fuel onto the deck which ignited spreading flames over the flight deck under other fully loaded aircraft ready for launch. The ensuing fire caused ordinance to explode and other rockets to ignite. Spread by the wind, the flames engulfed the aft end of the stricken ship turning the flight deck into a blazing inferno.. Berthing spaces immediately below the flight deck became death traps for fifty men, while other crewmen were blown overboard by the explosion.

Nearby ships hastened to the Forrestal’s aid. The Oriskany, herself a victim of a tragic fire in October 1966, stood by to offer fire-fighting and medical aid to the larger carrier. Nearby escort vessels sprayed water on the burning Forrestal and within an hour the fire on the flight deck was under control. But secondary fires below deck took another 12 hours to contain. The damage and loss of life was catastrophic.

The four-and-a-half-acre flight deck was littered with pieces of aircraft, as men struggled to clear away bombs and ammunition, throwing the ordnance over the side. One young 130-pound lieutenant found the strength to heave a 250-pound bomb overboard.

The Zuni rocket that was accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom and started the fire is believed to have been triggered by a combination of the powerful fields at deck level from the ship’s radar and an incorrectly fitted shielded cable connector.

This summary is from here where all EMC problems are listed,
http://www.compliance-club.com/archive/bananaskins/251-272.asp
most of them being everyday civilian life occurrences of course.

But it shows why EMC is essential, what Pic meant to outline, for
a safe and secure use
of nukes : so your delivery plane is safe and
the bomb doesn't blow up too early.
Safe and secure is the Graal of mil engineers, esp. with electronics.

But you're very right on the Russians "providing an EM environment".
Link for you too on that, in case you didn't have it already then :
https://www.electronic.nu/2015/09/2...-work-for-the-jas-39-gripen-fighter-aircraft/

Good day to you, Tay.

That incident is unrelated to NEMP. NEMP was known well before the first bomb was tested. The Enola Gay had double shielded electronics and instrumentation. Even then vacuum tube built systems have failed due to the failure of components.

The British used to call NEMP radio flash.

As for Gripen, I won't be surprised if the US had plans of providing Sweden with nuclear weapons in a war against the Russians.

How many electronic devices Enola Gay had ? zero.

Even vacuum tubes are electronics bro.
 
Thanks @RPK

The article states

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Sunday hinted at the early arrival of the Rafale fighter jets from France to India.

“As per the terms of the deal, it is 36 months, but it may come earlier slightly,” Parrikar told the media at the sidelines of Swachhta rally.

India on September 23 inked a deal for direct acquisition of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France.

French Defence Minister Yves Le Drian finalised the deal, which will cost India Euros 7.8 billion along with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar.

The negotiations to buy the Rafale fighter jets came through on September 21.

The development came after the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) discussed the deal and gave the green signal to go ahead with its signing to give a crucial boost to the Indian Air Force.

In June, Parrikar had stated that the number of the fighter jets were “on path of coming to conclusion”.

Both India and France had hoped to wrap up the strategic order during French President Francois Hollande’s visit for the Republic Day celebrations in January this year, but the bargaining over the price stalled the process......

+++

Now look again


View attachment 339939
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-380#post-8726014

DM MP confirming what source said before and posted on 24th.....

For long the engine program for the better ones should be online by 2018.. So ideally we should get a couple of jets at least .. and that is something which we have been saying time and again here..again it will also depend upon Meriganc Line scaling up as well..

@Vergennes @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @SpArK @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @hellfire @nair @BON PLAN @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED @R!CK @Armani @randomradio @litefire @zebra7 @Spectre @Joe Shearer https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @surya kiran

Don't know how, but Source is Good One, but still waiting for my question which I asked you ask from your source.
 
NEMP was known well before the first bomb was tested. The Enola Gay had double shielded electronics and instrumentation.

Yes, to protect the plane! With EMC, that did come after the Forrestal,
it also protects the weapon. The two are compliant to EM interactions.

I'm really not sure about American nukes for Sweden however; unlikely
AFAIK & IMHoO but let's check for fun.

Later, Tay.
 
Interview of DM MP with CNBCTV18

CNBC-TV18 ‏@CNBCTV18Live 25m25 minutes ago
RS22000 cr export opportunity via Rafale deal for Indian industry;10% of Rafale deal value is related to Tech transfer @manoharparrikar exl

CNBC-TV18‏ @CNBCTV18Live
In 4-5 yrs will be ready w/ at least 5 squardrons of Tejas;improved serviceability of IAF aircraft to enhance air power


CNBC-TV18‏ @CNBCTV18Live
74% Offset Of The Deal Directly Linked With India Purchases: Defence Minister @manoharparrikar In An Exclusive Conversation W/ @ShereenBhan


55mCNBC-TV18‏ @CNBCTV18Live
Have Asked The French Party To Speed-Up Supply Of The #Rafale Fighter Jets, Says Defence Minister @manoharparrikar to @ShereenBhan

Quoting what i said earlier..
Basically the context of the above statement is very important as the deal includes
  • 50% offset clause under which Thales and Dassault Group has to invest in India
  • The investment is to create a Indian MIC ecosystem to support and build Rafales in India
  • The offset amounts to Rs29K crores
  • The deal specifies that out of Rs 29K crores
    • 74 % of this amount or Rs 21460 Crores or approx Euro 2.9 Bn is via local manufacturing of components for meeting this order
    • It is mandatory to do sourcing of this much amount from local Indian MIC
    • Also included is a 26% of this amount to share the TOT aspect with local vendors with whom they will have a partnership
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-374#post-8722105

About delivery schedule I already said source talked about earlier than 36 and finishing by 54. That got confirmed again by DM MP interview.

Anything sooner than this schedule will require a much deeper support from Merignac line. I am optimistic that 54 can be narrowed to 48 months but anything below it will require a much herculean effort from the whole line, ecosystem and perhaps more orders as well. Bcz financial considerations may arise for such a quicker schedule.



@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others
 
A nice Rafale picture,in middle east.

mmp.jpg
 
36 jets in 36 months? impossible.

Why? The rate increase has begun so that Egypt's Raffys will be served by early 2018.
For now, no deliveries will be made to France so that Qatari cells can be built up even
though final assembly will have to wait for their standard to be ready.
By late 2018, the rhythm will be 2 per month or 22 a year with mostly if not only India to
receive machines. So 34 in 36 months if you want to quibble, is a distinct possibility.

I wouldn't bet the house and kids that it will happen but it's within the realms of reality.

Good day, mate, Tay.
 
Too ambitious.

Things will be clear when the official signatures are exchanged with French Head of State and first tranche of payments are released.

36 jets in 36 months? impossible. I wont object an early delivery start date of 24-30 months however.

Good Day!

Anything is possible. The French have built their MII with the ability to boost production very quickly in case of war.

If the French boost production to 33/year, a 36 month delivery is 100% assured because for two years the French deliveries will be zero and nobody else but India and Qatar will be getting large deliveries.

And if the MoD has assured more orders right after, then the production boost is much more likely, particularly if the navy buys all 54 jets from the French line.
 
The 3 per month remains elusive but the rest of this ^ is correct.
What could happen is a triple/full rate on the manufacturing line
and a 2 per month one on the assembly line.
The IN's 54 can trickle in until their final home is afloat while the
50% excess kits are sent to the MII?

Food for thought, Tay.
 
Why? The rate increase has begun so that Egypt's Raffys will be served by early 2018.
For now, no deliveries will be made to France so that Qatari cells can be built up even
though final assembly will have to wait for their standard to be ready.
By late 2018, the rhythm will be 2 per month or 22 a year with mostly if not only India to
receive machines. So 34 in 36 months if you want to quibble, is a distinct possibility.

I wouldn't bet the house and kids that it will happen but it's within the realms of reality.

Good day, mate, Tay.

Anything is possible. The French have built their MII with the ability to boost production very quickly in case of war.

If the French boost production to 33/year, a 36 month delivery is 100% assured because for two years the French deliveries will be zero and nobody else but India and Qatar will be getting large deliveries.

And if the MoD has assured more orders right after, then the production boost is much more likely, particularly if the navy buys all 54 jets from the French line.

No disrespect gentlemen, I was not saying its impossible for DA to make 36 jets in 36 months, but impossible for DA to deliver it all to India in 36 months.

My argument being:

36 months from 2016 - Lets call it 2019 end.

2017

1 unit for France
3 units for Egypt
Line up-gradation to continue. Qatar standard to complete testing. Indian standard to begin testing.

Source: http://www.dassault-aviation.tv/first_half_year_2016_results-1416-en.html and multiple official documents.

Order Backlog 2017 End: France(31) Egypt(15) Qatar (24) India (36) = 131 units

2018 - 2019

24 months = 22 production months

2/month = 44 jets in 2 years

I'd personally be really surprised if France delivers 36 jets to India while only 8 jets get delivered to Qatar & Egypt combined in 2 years. Which is nearly 2 jets a year to both customers?

3/month looks highly unlikely unless more orders flows in. Also keep in consideration that option clause for Egypt will be placed only upon delivery of first 24 jets. At 33/year output, the current order book of 106 jets (including 31 French units) won't last beyond 2021? Or excluding French orders, it wont last end of 2020. Makes no economical sense for such a ramp up unless another tranche of orders are placed.

P.S: Just assumptions and personal opinion after all.

Good Day!
 

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom