Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[newindiandefence]

I think we will use some technology of rafale in super sukhoi upgrade . And committed 50% offstage, France partnered companies will get orders in future jets of India tejas Mark 1a, Mark2 navyw, Amca , super sukhoi.

 

[4GTejasBVR]

3-6 o clock we can expect good news?

 

[BON PLAN]

Cabinet committee set to okay deal for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft

Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi
Updated: Sep 12, 2016 00:38 IST

Since Modi ordered 36 ready-to-fly fighters from France in April 2015, both the defence ministry and Dassault Aviation officials have been involved in hectic negotiations. (AP File Photo )

Sixteen months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter aircraft, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) is set to approve on Monday the closure of negotiations between the defence ministry and French manufacturer Dassault Aviation. The settled price for the twin-engined multi-role fighter is about 7.8 billion Euros with deliveries from 2019 and annual inflation capped at 3.5%.

Top sources told Hindustan Times that the defence ministry has sent the finalised deal to the CCS after making requisite changes to its offset section. The deal involves the manufacturer outsourcing 50% of the total amount of the deal from India.

“The cost of 36 fighters will be around Rs 7000-8,000 crore lower than that what was being offered to the previous UPA regime in the now cancelled contract for multi-role medium range combat aircraft (MMRCA). Rafale had been shortlisted as the lowest bidder in the MMRCA tender,” said a senior official.

Read | Ready to conclude Rafale deal, ball in India’s court: Dassault Aviation

Since Modi ordered 36 ready-to-fly fighters from France in April 2015, both the defence ministry and Dassault Aviation officials have been involved in hectic negotiations with defence minister Manohar Parrikar insistent that the cost should be 10-20% less than what was being offered to UPA regime but without compromising on the capabilities of the aircraft.

Equipped with a state-of-the-art AESA radar that allows for multiple targeting beyond visual range, the nuclear capable jet will the frontline jet for Indian Air Force (IAF) with Russian Su-30 MKI forming the backbone. Rafale fighters can be armed with the latest air-to-air, air-to-ground, as well as nuclear armament.

The 36 aircraft with a full armament complement were offered at a maximum price of 11.6 billion euros with annual inflation pegged at 5%. This has been brought down to 7.8 billion euros with maximum inflation pegged at 3.5.

What are the other administrativ steps before inking the deal ?

 

[[Bregs]]

Kab khatam hogi ye CCS ki meeting ?, ab toh inteha ho gai intezaar ki

 

[kaykay]

Kab khatam hogi ye CCS ki meeting ?, ab toh inteha ho gai intezaar ki

I have a bad feeling...prepared for one more KLPD.

 

[[Bregs]]

I have a bad feeling...prepared for one more KLPD.

oh bhai sukh sukh bol, ab bhi koi kami reh gai hai es deal main bad feelings ki

 

[Abingdonboy]

Of course, Dassault and France would have never accepted 50% offstes in order to sell only 36 Rafales. So MII for Rafales is absolutely sure. 90+ for IAF and 45+ for IN. Like I said in january. It will be inked in the contract for 36, either by a public or secret clause.

Could You Possibly explain why the MII element is being kept in the dark to such a degree? If one was to believe the mainstream media only Lockhead Martin, Boeing and SAAB are making such offers to India when in reality the GoI has been in talks solely with Dassualt for over a year now to make the Rafale in India.

Is it simply a political game? Or are the GoI and French Govt being shrewd by trying to keep the far bigger deal under wraps (to the greatest extent possible) to insulate it from the propaganda and outright smear campaign that has plagued the Rafale contract from 2011?

@PARIKRAMA

Nope. When the contract signed you will find that the contract is ONLY for 36 Rafale and with a firm commitment by Dassault for investing 50% of the money back in India to further the Aerospace Industry in India.

There is ZERO commitment for purchasing any more Rafale, but there will be a 100% enforced commitment by Dassault to develop Indian vendors and work with DRDO to transfer tech.

However if you want to "spin" something about a 'Secret' deal, do so by all means. Conspiracy theories are always fun.

Riiiiight, India has managed to extract 50% offset commitments, serious discounts and ToT from France for just 36 jets (with a 18 unit option clause) ordered off the shelf?

Despite the fact that we KNOW Dassualt have been talking to the GoI to make many times this number of Rafales in India.

@PARIKRAMA @Taygibay

 

[VivasvatManu]

Riiiiight, India has managed to extract 50% offset commitments, serious discounts and ToT from France for just 36 jets (with a 18 unit option clause) ordered off the shelf?

Despite the fact that we KNOW Dassualt have been talking to the GoI to make many times this number of Rafales in India.

@PARIKRAMA @Taygibay

There is nothing to "extract". The RFP and proposal was for purchase with 50% offset.

French position during the Negotiation was that they wanted additional cost for Offset. Second point was that HAL was NOT mature enough to 'absorb' the technology for mentioned cost. Their third point was about risk to Dassault since HAL would not take ownership for something that was not theirs to begin with.

India conceded to all three of their demands and agreed to pay for the additional offset but eliminated our Risk by reducing the number of aircrafts ordered.

This is the gist of the negotiations.

So now if Rafale wants additional orders they need to now take the risk and then convince GoI / MoD/IAF that they can produce the aircraft either cheaper or with greater value (better tech/ upgrade), IN India.

India is free of additional commitment and can peruse other avenues if the French fail to honour their deal in good faith. If the french do significant teach transfer and develop Vendors in India then India will purchase more Rafale. Either way the Risk to India is reduced.

Dasault is a victim of its own negotiation strategy. Maybe Dasult believes that upgraded Rafale will still be better than PAKFA and hence agreed to the Risk. But all that is pure speculation.

 

[Abingdonboy]

There is nothing to "extract". The RFP and proposal was for purchase with 50% offset.

French position during the Negotiation was that they wanted additional cost for Offset. Second point was that HAL was NOT mature enough to 'absorb' the technology for mentioned cost. Their third point was about risk to Dassault since HAL would not take ownership for something that was not theirs to begin with.

India conceded to all three of their demands and agreed to pay for the additional offset but eliminated our Risk by reducing the number of aircrafts ordered.

This is the gist of the negotiations.

So now if Rafale wants additional orders they need to now take the risk and then convince GoI / MoD/IAF that they can produce the aircraft either cheaper or with greater value (better tech/ upgrade), IN India.

India is free of additional commitment and can peruse other avenues if the French fail to honour their deal in good faith. If the french do significant teach transfer and develop Vendors in India then India will purchase more Rafale. Either way the Risk to India is reduced.

Dasault is a victim of its own negotiation strategy. Maybe Dasult believes that upgraded Rafale will still be better than PAKFA and hence agreed to the Risk. But all that is pure speculation.

Please.

If India wasn't happy with the terms offered by Dassualt they would already be talking to Boeing or LM and not a single Rafale would be ordered. It is a buyer's market, the very fact India is going for 36 Rafales is indication that both India and France have come to an agreement for FAR deeper cooperation. The govt isn't going to throw $8bn away as easy as that.

 

[VivasvatManu]

Please.

If India wasn't happy with the terms offered by Dassualt they would already be talking to Boeing or LM and not a single Rafale would be ordered. It is a buyer's market, the very fact India is going for 36 Rafales is indication that both India and France have come to an agreement for FAR deeper cooperation. The govt isn't going to throw $8bn away as easy as that.

India WAS not happy that is why we NEGOTIATED a Happy solution.

How difficult is it to understand this simple fact ? So NOW we are happy. (AFTER negotiations)

 

[PARIKRAMA]

 

[Abingdonboy]

India WAS not happy that is why we NEGOTIATED a Happy solution.

How difficult is it to understand this simple fact ? So NOW we are happy. (AFTER negotiations)

The entire premise of your argument is flawed and ignores the most basic element of negotiations. When one side is happy and the other not, the solution is not to make the unhappy side happy and the happy aide unhappy. A middle ground has to be found.

So if your contention is that India went from being unhappy to happy then it would have to have worked WITH France to come to an understanding that suited all and do you really think 36 jets (with 50% of the value having to be invested back into India) would suffice?

 

[GuardianRED]

View attachment 333702

 

[VivasvatManu]

The entire premise of your argument is flawed and ignores the most basic element of negotiations. When one side is happy and the other not, the solution is not to make the unhappy side happy and the happy aide unhappy. A middle ground has to be found.

So if your contention is that India went from being unhappy to happy then it would have to have worked WITH France to come to an understanding that suited all and do you really think 36 jets (with 50% of the value having to be invested back into India) would suffice?

When did I say one side is unhappy ? The french got what they bargained for and India got what India bargained for.

If France signs the contract for 36 Rafales it will put to rest all rumours of French unhappiness.

THAT IS the middle ground.

 

[randomradio]

36 Rafales only and 50 % offsets ? France and Dassault would have never accepted that ! Besides what I know and what I said, it is just obvious that offsets are depending on Rafales made in India. Even a kid would understand that ... And secret clauses are very common in contracts, especially G2G military contracts. During the last year, ALL what I said came true so I am sure that what I say today will soon come true too.

The MII component will be part of the initial IGA signed in Jan this year, not part of the 36 jet contract.