Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Perpendicular]

Indians and their chutiyapa.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Source based news.. Take it with salt.

• DM MP is delaying taking decisions for Rafale
• Rafale program is 36+90+18+54+45+45+36+36 mix of Merignac and Indian MII.
• It is the 45+45+36+36 part which other bidders want to take and are offering competitive package.
• Unless the coat of such package is less than the localised Rafale cost with additional benefits, the program is a non starter.
• DM is trying to extract a deal from USA for jet powered drones from General Atomics
• Lockheed is still trying for F16/F35 program and now it's requesting for 80-120 jets deal with a small part in flyaway and rest under MII.
• Israel is roped in for sophisticated customization for the LM deal.
• Also F35 is being showcased for controlling unmanned drones via F35 pilot mode.
• In Singapore, le Drian discussion centered around
  • Rafale negotiation of package
  • A long chit chat on Neuron and package flowing to Indian UCAV program.
  • NSG bid and some gift for USA was also discussed.
  • F21 torpedo point was discussed
  • MP updated around MII strategic partnerships
• Questions are being readied by some senior folks abt replacement program and pace of it. 3 sqds of Mig27 in 3 years max whereas pace of LCA and Rafale deal is too slow to their liking.
• Most probably PM NaMo would intervene in coming fortnight to make things in order.
• Speculations are rife that NSG bid failure via any Chinese veto directly or indirectly would see USA India deal on
  • Jet powered armed drones
  • LM program for aircraft
  • A high altitude interceptor system
  • ASW detection program
  • Logistic related aircraft
  • Jammer equipments and cooperation in NG jammer program
  • Aircraft carrier program

Suspense llooksto continue closer to 24th June and post that steps are expected surely

What is MP doing? Delay delay delay.

He said himself that the Rafale deal would be signed this month and now he is pushing it back?? He is fast losing any credibility he had built up by consistently over promising and under delivering and in the process making India look pathetic.

MP is performing entirely below expectations and is not congruent with what the PM has tried to promote for India; consistent swift decision making with transparent processes and predictable deadlines. This is one of India's most critical ministries and yet it is being handled with almost no care or attention.

MP really is trying to be too smart for his own good but what has he actually got to show for his tenure thus far? A new DPP? How utterly despicable. Anthony 2.0 indeed.

India's wait for a new fighter type continues (now 18+ years and waiting)......

Dear DM,
Dont try and play the hard game here because its the life of the airforce personals which suffers flying half a decade old fighter planes.
We have lost many lifes due to the same old problem for so many years now and it is the fault of the GOI that after 16 years of stating a requirements for new medium multirole aircraft they still dont have a damn plane.

Do you think these so-called leaders sat in their plush government bungalows in Delhi give a f*ck? Least of all Parrikar that has gone back on his OWN policy and imposed a blanket blacklisting that has ensured countless mega defence projects will be stalled by years.

And then these same leaders dream of matching the Chinese? They should try careers in comedy if politics doesn't work out.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

What is MP doing? Delay delay delay.

MP is performing entirely below expectations and is not congruent with what the PM has tried to promote for India; consistent swift decision making with transparent processes and predictable deadlines. This is one of India's most critical ministries and yet it is being handled with almost no care or attention.

And then these same leaders dream of matching the Chinese? They should try careers in comedy if politics doesn't work out.

When PM Was Buying Rafales, Parrikar Was Buying Fish In Goa: Digvijaya Singh
All India |Indo-Asian News Service | Updated: June 03, 2016 22:55 IST

Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh said Manohar Parrikar is hardly a Defence Minister. (PTI file photo)

PANAJI: When Prime Minister Narendra Modi was striking the Rafale fighter plane deal in France, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was in Goa buying fish, Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh said today, criticising Mr Parrikar for ignoring his sensitive central ministry brief.

"He is not involved in any of the defence deals. I told you earlier that when Rafale aircraft were being bought by the Prime Minister in France, he was buying fish in Goa. This is what Mr Parrikar's status as a Defence Minister is today," Mr Singh said, addressing a press conference in Panaji.

"The Congress party has been saying so from day one. Parrikar is hardly a Defence Minister. He is a super Chief Minister of Goa," Mr Singh said.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/when...as-buying-fish-in-goa-digvijaya-singh-1415319

 

[Grevion]

What is MP doing? Delay delay delay.

He said himself that the Rafale deal would be signed this month and now he is pushing it back?? He is fast losing any credibility he had built up by consistently over promising and under delivering and in the process making India look pathetic.

MP is performing entirely below expectations and is not congruent with what the PM has tried to promote for India; consistent swift decision making with transparent processes and predictable deadlines. This is one of India's most critical ministries and yet it is being handled with almost no care or attention.

MP really is trying to be too smart for his own good but what has he actually got to show for his tenure thus far? A new DPP? How utterly despicable. Anthony 2.0 indeed.

India's wait for a new fighter type continues (now 18+ years and waiting)......


Do you think these so-called leaders sat in their plush government bungalows in Delhi give a f*ck? Least of all Parrikar that has gone back on his OWN policy and imposed a blanket blacklisting that has ensured countless mega defence projects will be stalled by years.

And then these same leaders dream of matching the Chinese? They should try careers in comedy if politics doesn't work out.

Dreams of matching China! Even the Australians are quicker then us in their defense procurements with their defense needs not as much big as ours let alone the communist PRC.

When PM Was Buying Rafales, Parrikar Was Buying Fish In Goa: Digvijaya Singh
All India |Indo-Asian News Service | Updated: June 03, 2016 22:55 IST

Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh said Manohar Parrikar is hardly a Defence Minister. (PTI file photo)

PANAJI: When Prime Minister Narendra Modi was striking the Rafale fighter plane deal in France, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was in Goa buying fish, Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh said today, criticising Mr Parrikar for ignoring his sensitive central ministry brief.

"He is not involved in any of the defence deals. I told you earlier that when Rafale aircraft were being bought by the Prime Minister in France, he was buying fish in Goa. This is what Mr Parrikar's status as a Defence Minister is today," Mr Singh said, addressing a press conference in Panaji.

"The Congress party has been saying so from day one. Parrikar is hardly a Defence Minister. He is a super Chief Minister of Goa," Mr Singh said.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/when...as-buying-fish-in-goa-digvijaya-singh-1415319

They have hardly any right to criticise the govt. after the ten years of doing nothing significant in the defense preparedness of our country.

 

[Piper]

I would wager that something sweet is cooking b/w LM and India, otherwise the delay serves no purpose.

As for French! Ils ont merdé quelque chose de bien. Their loss, our gain

 

[randomradio]

What is MP doing? Delay delay delay.

He said himself that the Rafale deal would be signed this month and now he is pushing it back?? He is fast losing any credibility he had built up by consistently over promising and under delivering and in the process making India look pathetic.

MP is performing entirely below expectations and is not congruent with what the PM has tried to promote for India; consistent swift decision making with transparent processes and predictable deadlines. This is one of India's most critical ministries and yet it is being handled with almost no care or attention.

MP really is trying to be too smart for his own good but what has he actually got to show for his tenure thus far? A new DPP? How utterly despicable. Anthony 2.0 indeed.

India's wait for a new fighter type continues (now 18+ years and waiting)......


Do you think these so-called leaders sat in their plush government bungalows in Delhi give a f*ck? Least of all Parrikar that has gone back on his OWN policy and imposed a blanket blacklisting that has ensured countless mega defence projects will be stalled by years.

And then these same leaders dream of matching the Chinese? They should try careers in comedy if politics doesn't work out.

Sorry, but I think he's the best defence minister we have had since decades. Although I can understand how frustrated you are about the Rafale deal, but I don't believe there has been anyone better.

The navy projects under him have gone from normal pace to extreme heights. In the next 10 years, India will add more ships and aircraft than ever done in the last 70 years. All strategic programs have been increased manifold. And manifold doesn't justify it. Even China has stood up to take notice.

He's in fact the DM that we should have had in the 80s or the 90s. He's changing everything. Literally everything. That's why even private companies are so excited.

He's redefining Indian Standard Time.

I would wager that something sweet is cooking b/w LM and India, otherwise the delay serves no purpose.

As for French! Ils ont merdé quelque chose de bien. Their loss, our gain

Nothing's happening between LM and India. Boeing stands a better chance. If India inducts a single engine fighter, it will be the Gripen-E/F.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I would wager that something sweet is cooking b/w LM and India, otherwise the delay serves no purpose.

As for French! Ils ont merdé quelque chose de bien. Their loss, our gain

No US OEM has any chance in the Indian fighter market, Ashton Carter returning empty handed proved that. The Indian side gave them a fair hearing and they spat in India's face.

The Rafale deal is de-linked to anything and everything else. They are coming, it is just a question of when. Parrikar is playing stupid games with the French trying to protect his own political aspirations that is all.

Sorry, but I think he's the best defence minister we have had since decades. Although I can understand how frustrated you are about the Rafale deal, but I don't believe there has been anyone better.

The navy projects under him have gone from normal pace to extreme heights. In the next 10 years, India will add more ships and aircraft than ever done in the last 70 years. All strategic programs have been increased manifold. And manifold doesn't justify it. Even China has stood up to take notice.

He's in fact the DM that we should have had in the 80s or the 90s. He's changing everything. Literally everything. That's why even private companies are so excited.

What naval projects has Parrikar actually sanctioned under his tenure? Not a SINGLE aviation asset has been cleared for the IN under him and the P-17As were pushed by the PM. He has actually sabotaged the P-15B, IAC-1, Scorpenes, and P-17A because of his blacklisting of OTO, WASS and SALEX which means their main guns (127mm), BLACK SHARK torpedoes and VSR (RAN-40L) aren't coming.

Dreams of matching China! Even the Australians are quicker then us in their defense procurements with their defense needs not as much big as ours let alone the communist PRC.
.

Australia? Try the majority of the Western and Eastern world. The only nation that can compete with India on defence procurement sloppiness and delays is the US but they are so far ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to tech and scale that is understandable.

India's defence procurement record is an utter joke and it isn't getting any better.

.


They have hardly any right to criticise the govt. after the ten years of doing nothing significant in the defense preparedness of our country.

Exactly. It's most bizarre that the party that gave India Anthony are criticising the incumbent DM. The longest serving DM in India's history has single handlidly set back India's defence preparerdness by at least 10-12 years.

 

[randomradio]

What naval projects has Parrikar actually sanctioned under his tenure? Not a SINGLE aviation asset has been cleared for the IN under him and the P-17As were pushed by the PM.

Jaitley cleared 80000Cr worth of deals and Parrikar followed up with more than 2LCr worth of deals since then. Since then many of them have been cleared. That's never happened ever. CCS has slowly been approving those deals.

P-17 was Parrikar's deal. He said it himself. As for aircraft, 2 more Phalcons, C-295 and MRMR are Parrikar's deals. Basically whatever Parrikar has done in a year, UPA has taken 10 years to do.

Think about it, he's always been complaining about money, why do you think that is? His ministry has been burning through the budget really fast. This is why Rafale's funds will be covered from outside the current defence budget.

Parrikar has two major goals right now. First one is to become self-sufficient and the second is exports. He wants India to be a net exporter of weapons. And well before his term is up, he wants to clinch at least two billion bucks in exports. And increase weapons share for indigenous equipment from 70% to 35% in just 5 years. This is something most experts have said would take at least 20-30 years.

There is also another sector that Parrikar is responsible for, that sector has seen a sea change, I don't want to talk about that. This is probably our most important sector. More important than Rafale or P-15B or FGFA.

He must get a second term.

He has actually sabotaged the P-15B, IAC-1, Scorpenes, and P-17A because of his blacklisting of OTO, WASS and SALEX which means their main guns (127mm), BLACK SHARK torpedoes and VSR (RAN-40L) aren't coming.

No, none of those programs have been compromised. Fin doesn't have a monopoly in defence, all their equipment can be replaced. Fin's CEO himself said the deals they had with India were insignificant. In fact, Fin's blacklisting was the best thing that's happened.

Btw, Parrikar doesn't make the decision about such things. He can only initiate an investigation and the decision is made by the Law Ministry. And until CBI clears the company, Parrikar cannot do anything. There is a process to this. So don't hate on him for following procedures.

As far as India is concerned, only Russia and Israel have tech that is unique and have monopoly, all other countries and their companies are competing with each other. And Israel is grouped with Russia because they have offered tech the others have but have not offered.

 

[Jai Bharat]

What is MP doing? Delay delay delay.

He said himself that the Rafale deal would be signed this month and now he is pushing it back?? He is fast losing any credibility he had built up by consistently over promising and under delivering and in the process making India look pathetic.

Might be waiting after NSG meeting for announcement. I have a feeling many foreign deals and exports such as Brahmos to Vietnam are under similar pressures with these international agreements and diplomacy, even if they are finalized.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Might be waiting after NSG meeting for announcement. I have a feeling many foreign deals and exports such as Brahmos to Vietnam are under similar pressures with these international agreements and diplomacy, even if they are finalized.

The Rafale deal has nothing to do with the NSG membership.

 

[Jai Bharat]

The Rafale deal has nothing to do with the NSG membership.

NSG membership has to do with convincing China to acede. I don't think announcing export of Brahmos missiles to Vietnam or purchase of Rafales on the eve of NSG is a move this government would want to take, Chinese still seem ambiguous on their decision. New government seems far more aware of international politics and diplomacy than any government before, doesn't want useless loud-mouthed Indian media needlessly hyping the deal as a counter to China. At least not when the NSG decision is so close. It is also telling that new Prahaar/Pragati test-launch was announced immediately after MTCR accession, as it will be marketed for export now. I don't see why nuclear-capable Rafale that would be stationed on Eastern border would much different.

 

[Abingdonboy]

NSG membership has to do with convincing China to acede. I don't think announcing export of Brahmos missiles to Vietnam or purchase of Rafales on the eve of NSG is a move this government would want to take, Chinese still seem ambiguous on their decision. New government seems far more aware of international politics and diplomacy than any government before, doesn't want useless loud-mouthed Indian media needlessly hyping the deal as a counter to China. At least not when the NSG decision is so close. It is also telling that new Prahaar/Pragati test-launch was announced immediately after MTCR accession, as it will be marketed for export now. I don't see why nuclear-capable Rafale that would be stationed on Eastern border would much different.

The Rafale deal isn't linked to the NSG in anyway shape or form brother, trust me. Let's not make excuses for Parrikar's Anthony-like behaviour.

 

[SR-91]

Just get the Rafales ordered (126++ units), the rest can be sorted later (American-Indo ties move VERY slowly because of the baggage of both sides)

Looks like India will eventually end up with Jets from all over the world.
Rafales from Europe
F18's-F35 and/or UCAV from USA
FGFA from Russia.

On a separate note....Delays in Deals.

We can bash Parrikar all we want but he's putting his country first rather than his own appearance in media.

Let's put ourselves in his shoes for a sec. The way I see it he has THE MOST COMPLICATED job on this planet right now. He has to deal with the blunders and massive negligence of the last 10 years.
Almost every project was running behind without the will to complete on time. Not only he has to deal with completing projects on time but also the CORE ISSUE of our Indian attitude of "chalta hai". That's a sea change in itself. What India can accomplish, in terms of high-tech high-quality, in next 10-15 years and he needs to condense all that in 5 years or so.

India will spend heavily on defense procurement and he needs to make the most out it. Rafale deal turned out to much bigger than everyone predicted. Parrikar needs to get everything right from the beginning. We need to give this guy a little more time. Decisions he makes today will have its effects and consequences for decades to come.

 

[Jai Bharat]

The Rafale deal isn't linked to the NSG in anyway shape or form brother, trust me. Let's not make excuses for Parrikar's Anthony-like behaviour.

Don't crush my hopes of seeing Rafale contract signed after India joins NSG like that .

Would be funny if FGFA deal is signed before Rafale. Even more-so if it 's the promised US fighter-deal, that some on here talk about. Although I doubt any announcement on that front until post-2016 US Presidential elections, perhaps during a foreign visit of US president.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Don't crush my hopes of seeing Rafale contract signed after India joins NSG like that .

Would be funny if FGFA deal is signed before Rafale. Even more-so if it 's the promised US fighter-deal, that some on here talk about. Although I doubt any announcement on that front until post-2016 US Presidential elections, perhaps during a foreign visit of US president.

I think India is still quite some distance away from joining the NSG and I expect the Rafale deal MUCH sooner (mext few weeks if Parrikar stops messing around).

Where the US is concerned, I would steer well clear, they are barely offering high end tech, are not accepting India's demands and every single defence deal would be subject to their messy internal politics. As it stands their government is effectively paralysed for the next 18 months with the elections and bedding in process of the next POTUS. India can't afford to wait 2+ years.

Looks like India will eventually end up with Jets from all over the world.
Rafales from Europe
F18's-F35 and/or UCAV from USA
FGFA from Russia.

On a separate note....Delays in Deals.

We can bash Parrikar all we want but he's putting his country first rather than his own appearance in media.

Let's put ourselves in his shoes for a sec. The way I see it he has THE MOST COMPLICATED job on this planet right now. He has to deal with the blunders and massive negligence of the last 10 years.
Almost every project was running behind without the will to complete on time. Not only he has to deal with completing projects on time but also the CORE ISSUE of our Indian attitude of "chalta hai". That's a sea change in itself. What India can accomplish, in terms of high-tech high-quality, in next 10-15 years and he needs to condense all that in 5 years or so.

India will spend heavily on defense procurement and he needs to make the most out it. Rafale deal turned out to much bigger than everyone predicted. Parrikar needs to get everything right from the beginning. We need to give this guy a little more time. Decisions he makes today will have its effects and consequences for decades to come.

I don't agree with your assessment of Parrikar brother. IMO he is putting his personal political ambitions in front of his country. I don't think Modi will put up with this nonsense for much longer especially when other ministries are performing flawlessly. There isn't much to show for Parrikar's tenure thus far.