Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[SpArK]

It means India has zero bargaining power.

Buy or French terms are don't buy at all. France has other markets for Rafale now.

Yes that is the meaning. Brilliant.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

It means India has zero bargaining power.

20 Billion dollars is a lot of money ; we will use it wisely

Buy on French terms are don't buy at all. France has other markets for Rafale now.

If our demands are not met we will continue buying MORE SU 30 mki

BTW read this statement of Dassault CEO

Dassault “confident” of Rafale deal with India | idrw.org

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Wisest thing would be to buy 200 odd rafales with full weapons stack off the shelf from France this will make PAK and china Pee in pants

There are two parts of Rafale Acquisition

1 Capability of IAF to face A two front war

2 Technology transfer to India and an enhancement of our Industrial capabilities

The FIRST part can ALSO be done through MORE Su 30 mki which are being upgraded
AND FGFA

The Second part is MORE Important ie Technology transfer

When you spend so much money ; you should get FULL value for your money

 

[possumlot]

It means India has zero bargaining power.

Buy on French terms are don't buy at all. France has other markets for Rafale now.

The Rafale deal with India is bigger than the Market capitalization of Dassault, roughly 6 Times its market cap ...... that is pretty good bargaining power in my books.

Without a large order Dassault is running on Fumes.

 

[sancho]

Its silly to assume Dassault is batting for RIL. Dassault don't give a $hit about RIL.

Dassault wanted RIL so that they could bypass the technology transfer requirement and RIL was ready to play along by assembling parts and calling it "indigenous manufacturing".

And there you have the answer why Dassault is batting for RIL!

 

[possumlot]

And there you have the answer why Dassault is batting for RIL!

I guess they were stupid enough to think Reliance clout will help them through.

That is what happens when you start believing your own propaganda about crazy corruption in India.

 

[halloweene]

Wont comment on shivalik fully loaded FREMM is opearated by 109 sailors. 250 are needed on Shivalik.... Did you take into account the cost of training, spare parts etc?I think you forgot that the deal included also weaponry for both airplanes and frigate. ASTER 15, Exocet, Torpedoesmaybe VL mica, Mica, AASM, Scalp...
So you are just purely speculating on costs of airplane.

 

[Abingdonboy]

It means India has zero bargaining power.

Buy on French terms are don't buy at all. France has other markets for Rafale now.

Sales to Egypt, UAE and Qatar wouldn't be worth even 1 MMRCA deal with India (forget the clause for an additional 63) so I still think India holds the bargaining power quite considerably.

You think the Dassualt executives would not be in some deep dirt with the board of Dassualt for failing to clinch the largest fighter buy of a generation? This is just illogical. India still holds the cards but the pressure is on both sides to get this deal done and done fast.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dassault "confident" of Rafale deal with India

PARIS: French defence company Dassault Aviation today said it was "very confident" that three years of talks with India on the sale of 126 Rafales worth 12 billion euros would result in a deal. Eric Trappier, chief executive of Dassault Aviation which manufactures Rafale, in an interview with BFM television, said talks were slow as India wanted some of the jets manufactured at home in a bid to boost defence manufacturing, meaning the details of every nut and bolt had to be agreed upon [...].

From:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...campaign=cppst

12 billion Euros is around $14 billion USD (current exchange rate), I wonder if this is the price Eric Trappier actually used in the interview.

Wont comment on shivalik fully loaded FREMM is opearated by 109 sailors. 250 are needed on Shivalik.... Did you take into account the cost of training, spare parts etc?I think you forgot that the deal included also weaponry for both airplanes and frigate. ASTER 15, Exocet, Torpedoesmaybe VL mica, Mica, AASM, Scalp...
So you are just purely speculating on costs of airplane.

Manpower and training costs in India are FAR lower than in the West so the additional crew compliment and their training is not as huge an expense as you may think. Egypt too would have such low overhead costs but they still went for such an automated frigate.


But I take your point.


@halloweene and updates as far as the Rafale sale to India goes?

 

[halloweene]

I think Egyptian Rafale has do more with the Middle East situation.

RFP is more about spares as the problem is being seen even in the Mirage 2000 upgradation.

Which pb? tellme. I'm interested. Did you know that the day of first delivery, on schedule and nominal characteristics, VK SIngh delayed a week in a last attempt to obtain a bargain?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Which pb? tellme. I'm interested. Did you know that the day of first delivery, on schedule and nominal characteristics, VK SIngh delayed a week in a last attempt to obtain a bargain?

What does VK Singh (former Army chief) have to do with the Mirage 2000 upgrade?

 

[UKBengali]

The Rafale deal with India is bigger than the Market capitalization of Dassault, roughly 6 Times its market cap ...... that is pretty good bargaining power in my books.

Without a large order Dassault is running on Fumes.

An order for 24 aircraft is a decent first export sale. There will be other orders from other ME countries.

France wants to see Rafael to India but at the price it wants and certainly no key technology
will be transferred.

Think about it this way - if France was that desperate then the sale would have been concluded by now.

French and whatever orders it gets from ME would run into maybe 300 units - plenty for Dassault.

 

[halloweene]

@@halloweene and updates as far as the Rafale sale to India goes?

Not really, politics at DA is mous shut atm.
Two points
Trappier never said something so optimistic. Not his menatality (see days previous egyptian sales for ex.)
I do know for sure that ppl are hired with long term contracts for india. There's a ruour inside about more DA ppl going to move to india for longer term than expected.
Sorry i do not know more.

What does VK Singh (former Army chief) have to do with the Mirage 2000 upgrade?

Sorry i was thinking of air force chief when first modernized -2000 was delivered.. My mistake.

About DA arrogance, they may look arrogant. Their way to work is to do very deep preliminary studies and then to stick to it.
i'd say rigid instead of arrogant.

 

[Abingdonboy]

There's a ruour inside about more DA ppl going to move to india for longer term than expected.

So what could this mean sir? What role are they going to India to fill i.e. what are their job descriptions?

France wants to see Rafael to India but at the price it wants and certainly no key technology
will be transferred.

Price has never been an issue, and the ToT is non-negotiable, see the RFP- if France don't adhere to it game over for them. Anyway this has never been a sticking point either, Dassualt have agree to this.

Think about it this way - if France was that desperate then the sale would have been concluded by now.

Not really, as a profit maximising firm they are going to want to get the best possible deal, even if it takes a bit longer.

French and whatever orders it gets from ME would run into maybe 300 units - plenty for Dassault.

300 units? 300?? Please to outline where 300 units of the Rafale will go to in the ME.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

So what could this mean sir? What role are they going to India to fill i.e. what are their job descriptions?

They will start a new assembly line from the ground up ; tooling and equipment ;
training vendors and sub vendors ; basically implementing the offsets

 

[UKBengali]

@Abingdonboy : 300 is the total orders from France and ME.