Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[randomradio]

Not sure about the M88 (I'm sure @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil or @Vauban can help) but the AL-31 costs around $3.5-4 million USD each but likely would cost a tiny bit more these days. The TBO of 1000h (in the IAF even less) is complete joke though as is the rather pitiful life span.

India signed a contract for 900 odd engines in 2012 for about $5B.

 

[Abingdonboy]

India signed a contract for 900 odd engines in 2012 for about $5B.

Are you sure about the $5BN figure? I know India had gone in for a large AL-31 order not long ago but that would equate to >$5MN PER AL-31.

 

[randomradio]

Are you sure about the $5BN figure? I know India had gone in for a large AL-31 order not long ago but that would equate to >$5MN PER AL-31.

Let me check, it may be a bit smaller.

Are you sure about the $5BN figure? I know India had gone in for a large AL-31 order not long ago but that would equate to >$5MN PER AL-31.

http://survincity.com/2012/06/megakontrakt-with-india-on-the-engines-al-31fp/

$5B for 970 engines. 50 supplied by UMPO, and the rest to be manufactured in phases.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The French state will buy 59 Rafales to Dassault Aviation
By LEXPRESS.fr, published 22/09/2004 at 19:26

The $ 3.1 billion, this is the largest order placed by the French state, only Rafale client to date since the program began in 1988.

Dassault Aviation finally sees the expected profile control for nearly a year, the 59 Rafale combat aircraft, with the announcement Wednesday by Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie that the negotiation was "completed". The order will be formalized by the end of 2004. The contract of over 3 billion euros which also concerns the engine and equipment manufacturer Snecma and defense electronics group Thales, must be notified by industrial the General Delegation for Armaments (DGA). The share of Dassault Aviation should be 1.5 billion euros, that of Snecma 600 million and 500 million of Thales; the rest having to be MBDA for missiles and Sagem for electronic components.

This order is the largest placed by the French state, one client to date Rafale since the program began in 1988. Two first installments have already been passed, with 13 aircraft in 1997 and 48 in 1999. This third slice provides 46 air Rafale to the air Force and 13 for Naval Aviation Rafale. It will thus bring 120 copies to the number of devices actually ordered a total of 294 under the 2003-2008 military planning law.

https://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/entreprises/l-etat-va-commander-59-rafales-a-dassault-aviation_1428407.html

This is a 2004 article but it is interesting because there is the SNECMA Share.
One engine seems to be (600/3100)/2 of the price of a Rafale, that is to say 9.677%
With a Rafale fly away cost of 75 M$ and a Rafale price of 80 M$ the price of one M88 is 7.75 M$

 

[Taygibay]

This is a 2004 article but it is interesting because there is the SNECMA Share.
One engine seems to be (600/3100)/2 of the price of a Rafale, that is to say 9.677%

Nope, I'm still right, sorry!
The Safran share of work on the Rafale includes the landing gears, hydraulic generation, electrical
wiring & 50% of the ejection seat value. OH! And the Rubis APU.
That's excluding SAGEM products save precisely the numeric calculators the M-88 FADEC.
http://www.safran-group.com/fr/media/20150504_safran-bord-du-rafale
The M-88 is a subset of the Safran workshare on the Raffy, not all of it.

It's still 9B€ per plane first mount for a pair, mind you!
And to think that I'm still moody because I broke a 250$ wheel on my secondary bike last week-end! Phew!

Bonjour chez vous, Tay.

 

[#hydra#]

True that it is a beast but remember, with its tiny size and engines,
the Rafale carries more payload.

It's not all about having power, you have to use it to good avail?

Just sayin' Tay.

View attachment 301632​

Range?

 

[Abingdonboy]

$5B for 970 engines. 50 supplied by UMPO, and the rest to be manufactured in phases.

With a Rafale fly away cost of 75 M$ and a Rafale price of 80 M$ the price of one M88 is 7.75 M$

So the M88 costs 150% more than the AL-31 but offers something like a 300% greater lifespan and that too requiiring at least 3 overhauls during its life (compared to 0 for the M88) and that is a pain to drop in and out (10-12 hours for the AL-31 vs 1-2 for the M88). The Rafale and MKI comparisons are night and day in some areas.

And they say the Rafale is overpriced, as the saying goes you pay peanuts and you get monkeys....

 

[randomradio]

(10-12 hours for the AL-31 vs 1-2 for the M88).

30 minutes for one engine on Rafale. 1 hour in total.

In case some part of M88 malfunctions, the module that has malfunctioned can be replaced without removing the engine. The AL-31 has to be removed regardless of the reason for malfunction.

The Rafale and MKI comparisons are night and day in some areas.

The MKI has no advantage in almost anything today. The MKI is not plumbed for drop tanks, so the Rafale still outranges it until drop tanks come in. There is a slight advantage is weapons payload, but that depends on how much range the MKI is willing to sacrifice.

Super Sukhoi may change many things but we have to wait for the specs, that will take years to be released, probably never. We still do not know Mig-29's upgrade specs.

MKI's only real advantage is a more diverse weapons inventory. It is integrated with the Brahmos-A, K-100 and KH-31, all three are unique weapons with no equivalents in the West. Brahmos-M can solve that problem for Rafale, but we cannot yet be sure about the other two weapons.

 

[Abingdonboy]

30 minutes for one engine on Rafale. 1 hour in total.

In case some part of M88 malfunctions, the module that has malfunctioned can be replaced without removing the engine. The AL-31 has to be removed regardless of the reason for malfunction.



The MKI has no advantage in almost anything today. The MKI is not plumbed for drop tanks, so the Rafale still outranges it until drop tanks come in. There is a slight advantage is weapons payload, but that depends on how much range the MKI is willing to sacrifice.

Super Sukhoi may change many things but we have to wait for the specs, that will take years to be released, probably never. We still do not know Mig-29's upgrade specs.

MKI's only real advantage is a more diverse weapons inventory. It is integrated with the Brahmos-A, K-100 and KH-31, all three are unique weapons with no equivalents in the West. Brahmos-M can solve that problem for Rafale, but we cannot yet be sure about the other two weapons.

It's certainly not a bad thing that the IAF has the Rafale to benchmark their MKIs against.

 

[randomradio]

And they say the Rafale is overpriced, as the saying goes you pay peanuts and you get monkeys....

That's not the right way to look at it. The MKI is 70s technology that was further developed in the 80s and 90s. The MKI was configured in 1995, Rafale's latest configuration will be available from 2018 onwards. Two decades of work has gone into the Rafale since then. The MKI was no slouch. The Su-35 improves on the MKI by a pretty large margin, probably makes it competitive with the Rafale in many aspects and beats it outright in many others. The Super Sukhoi upgrade may come in with enough upgrades to improve on capabilities the Rafale lacks today and may continue to lag behind in even in the future.

It's certainly not a bad thing that the IAF has the Rafale to benchmark their MKIs against.

I'm more interested in knowing how well the PAK FA will benchmark against a post-2021 Rafale. IAF will ask for the best of both to be introduced in the AMCA.

 

[dadeechi]

That's not the right way to look at it. The MKI is 70s technology that was further developed in the 80s and 90s. The MKI was configured in 1995, Rafale's latest configuration will be available from 2018 onwards. Two decades of work has gone into the Rafale since then. The MKI was no slouch. The Su-35 improves on the MKI by a pretty large margin, probably makes it competitive with the Rafale in many aspects and beats it outright in many others. The Super Sukhoi upgrade may come in with enough upgrades to improve on capabilities the Rafale lacks today and may continue to lag behind in even in the future.



I'm more interested in knowing how well the PAK FA will benchmark against a post-2021 Rafale. IAF will ask for the best of both to be introduced in the AMCA.

Experience from RAFALEs would be used by IAF to implement upgrades to MKI as part of Super Sukhoi program.

 

[Abingdonboy]

That's not the right way to look at it. The MKI is 70s technology that was further developed in the 80s and 90s. The MKI was configured in 1995, Rafale's latest configuration will be available from 2018 onwards. Two decades of work has gone into the Rafale since then. The MKI was no slouch. The Su-35 improves on the MKI by a pretty large margin, probably makes it competitive with the Rafale in many aspects and beats it outright in many others. The Super Sukhoi upgrade may come in with enough upgrades to improve on capabilities the Rafale lacks today and may continue to lag behind in even in the future.

I agree with all of the above but it doesn't detract from what I have said, at no point in time have those proposing more MKIs instead of the Rafale brought in the Super Sukhoi that exists purely as a paper plane today. As you have said, the Rafale has been upgraded over time, the MKI has had only marginal upgrades in the past 20 years and thus it is comparing apples and oranges where the Rafale vs MKI is concerned. Furthermore, the MKI reflects its history ie being rather outdated (not in outright specs but in areas such as usability and maintainability), whilst the rest of its contempories have full onboard diagnostic systems the MKI lags behind woefully and you have demonstrated this with the engine change/drop in/out example.

Experience from RAFALEs would be used by IAF to implement upgrades to MKI as part of Super Sukhoi program.

For sure. AASMs are already being proposed for the Super Sukhoi if some other elements from the Rafale are brought in the MKI is going to be areal beast going into the future.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Experience from RAFALEs would be used by IAF to implement upgrades to MKI as part of Super Sukhoi program.

Your information on F 16 in IAF is real or just your guess ;hunch or fantasy

 

[dadeechi]

Your information on F 16 in IAF is real or just your guess ;hunch or fantasy

Why are you asking this question on the RAFALE thread? I am no opponent of RAFALEs..

Surely, RAFALE would be the best procurement IAF made till date.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

3 points

1. Rs 58,600 crs that's the closest rounded up figure of the deal
2. French team probable visit in 3rd or 4th week of May
3. File moved to Cabinet committee for approval.

Few more

DCNS will be given a relaxation for FDI route investment for bringing in AIP tech.. Not sure what happened to DRDO AIP ones..

Blackshark torpedo deal file dust has been cleaned and is getting ready.. Indications of Italy and marine issue solved evolving slowly by some mutual agreement. Scorpene first kalavari induction coming soon so Blackshark deal getting looked at priority.

Strategic partnership part of DPP 2016 is almost firmed up.. Will be released soon for MII part of things..