Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Prajapati]

Dassault takes three years to build Rafale, but an indianized Rafale could be built in 18 months (after that 18 months you can't change the technical definition).
I am not sure DCNS is the only one to be blamed for scorpene delays. Magazon docks have their share... Didn't hear any complaint from Brazil.

Exactly ..... "Magazon docks have their share" defines the whole French attitude and blame shifting ........ that is why HAL is making sure they are not made suckers like Mazgoan docks and held responsible for "their share". You do realize that the French have pretty low credibility when it comes to keeping promises.

This deal is highly important if we want to build a strong Air force & a strong Aviation Industry

If we want a strong Air Force and a Strong Aviation Industry, we have to BUILD IT. Not BUY it.

One word, "Research".

 

[Echo_419]

Exactly ..... "Magazon docks have their share" defines the whole French attitude and blame shifting ........ that is why HAL is making sure they are not made suckers like Mazgoan docks and held responsible for "their share". You do realize that the French have pretty low credibility when it comes to keeping promises.



If we want a strong Air Force and a Strong Aviation Industry, we have to BUILD IT. Not BUY it.

One word, "Research".

By the time we manage to build something close to that every one would be moving on to 6th gn fighters

 

[Prajapati]

By the time we manage to build something close to that every one would be moving on to 6th gn fighters

Better to try and fail, and try again and again till we succeed, than never try at all.

IAF will be forced to go to Plan B, which is Super 30 MKI and LCA. Good news is, this will put massive pressure on the LCA program and the IAF will be forced to partner the program

 

[Echo_419]

Better to try and fail, and try again and again till we succeed, than never try at all.

IAF will be forced to go to Plan B, which is Super 30 MKI and LCA. Good news is, this will put massive pressure on the LCA program and the IAF will be forced to partner the program

Let me refer you to @Abingdonboy & @sancho as they can explain you better why we need this deal so bad

 

[Prajapati]

Let me refer you to @Abingdonboy & @sancho as they can explain you better why we need this deal so bad

 

[Abingdonboy]

Better to try and fail, and try again and again till we succeed, than never try at all.

IAF will be forced to go to Plan B, which is Super 30 MKI and LCA. Good news is, this will put massive pressure on the LCA program and the IAF will be forced to partner the program

Thi is the exact opposite of "good news" unless you are the PLAAF and PAF that is.

 

[Prajapati]

Thi is the exact opposite of "good news" unless you are the PLAAF and PAF that is.

I would rather see 20 Billion $ spent inside India than outside.

Add a 100 more super 30 MKI and Pour 2 billion $ into the LCA program, create and inventory of Su 30 MKI spare parts to increase up time and see how parity builds up again.

There is the PAK-FA, AMCA in the pipeline.

 

[Bang Galore]

........ they can explain you better why we need this deal so bad

Look, the aircraft is undoubtedly good but the deal stinks to the high heavens. If MoD accepted the French position now, they are pretty much bending over & offering up their behinds. Dealing with the French sucks.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I would rather see 20 Billion $ spent inside India than outside.

Add a 100 more super 30 MKI and Pour 2 billion $ into the LCA program, create and inventory of Su 30 MKI spare parts to increase up time and see how parity builds up again.

There is the PAK-FA, AMCA in the pipeline.

Firstly the Rafale deal isn't worth $20 Billion.

Secondly, even if it was 50% of that figure would be ploughed back into the Indian aviation industry (a good thing, no?)

Thirdly, your initial remark "I would rather see $20 Billion $ spent inside India than outside" is entirely undermined by the fact you go on to prescribe MORE Su-30MKIs being built for the IAF, do you think the MKI is Indian? Do you think the amount of resources that would flow back to Russia are any less than those that would flow back to France once production of the Rafale starts in India? By buying more MKIs you are not keeping money in India (not all of it), all you are doing is dumping a MASSIVE burden on the IAF in terms of operational expenditure and with a 60-65% availability rate (the Rafale has closer to 85%) you are comprising the IAF's combat capabilities and India's national security.

I've heard this extra MKI+ LCA alternative theory to the Rafale reiterated many times and haven't entertained it for a second, this solution is not superior in costs or operational capability and would just be a huge kick in the teeth to the IAF who have spent the best part of a decade pushing for the MMRCA.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another day, another contradictory report:


MMRCA Deal: Dassault Confirming to Indian RFP Conditions

French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault is confirming to conditions laid down in the original request for proposals (RFP) in its conduct of negotiations with the contract negotiations committee (CNC) of the Indian MoD over the sale of 126 Rafale fighters.
A senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer in the know of things told Defenseworld.net Delhi correspondent that negotiations have so far been within the boundaries of the RFP. The aircraft being discussed to be purchased is what was tested by the IAF and not a later model as reported by various media .The officer who did not wish to be quoted said that a good part of the negotiations have been completed including a work-share agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
Responding to a question, the official explained that the delay in conclusion of the contract was due to “the CNC being sensitised about issues by various external sources, including Dassault’s competitors, and the former seeking clarifications for them”.A fresh target time frame for the completion of the negotiations has been set for March-April of 2015. Various reports in the past have noted that Dassault was deviating from the RFP conditions and that the MoD had informed the French company to ‘stick to the RFP’.

From:
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/121...s#.VNssVmiG_iM

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Thanks for reviving our hopes

Yesterday's news looked like it is all over

 

[Prajapati]

Firstly the Rafale deal isn't worth $20 Billion.

Secondly, even if it was 50% of that figure would be ploughed back into the Indian aviation industry (a good thing, no?)

Thirdly, your initial remark "I would rather see $20 Billion $ spent inside India than outside" is entirely undermined by the fact you go on to prescribe MORE Su-30MKIs being built for the IAF, do you think the MKI is Indian? Do you think the amount of resources that would flow back to Russia are any less than those that would flow back to France once production of the Rafale starts in India? By buying more MKIs you are not keeping money in India (not all of it), all you are doing is dumping a MASSIVE burden on the IAF in terms of operational expenditure and with a 60-65% availability rate (the Rafale has closer to 85%) you are comprising the IAF's combat capabilities and India's national security.

I've heard this extra MKI+ LCA alternative theory to the Rafale reiterated many times and haven't entertained it for a second, this solution is not superior in costs or operational capability and would just be a huge kick in the teeth to the IAF who have spent the best part of a decade pushing for the MMRCA.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another day, another contradictory report:


MMRCA Deal: Dassault Confirming to Indian RFP Conditions

French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault is confirming to conditions laid down in the original request for proposals (RFP) in its conduct of negotiations with the contract negotiations committee (CNC) of the Indian MoD over the sale of 126 Rafale fighters.
A senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer in the know of things told Defenseworld.net Delhi correspondent that negotiations have so far been within the boundaries of the RFP. The aircraft being discussed to be purchased is what was tested by the IAF and not a later model as reported by various media .The officer who did not wish to be quoted said that a good part of the negotiations have been completed including a work-share agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
Responding to a question, the official explained that the delay in conclusion of the contract was due to “the CNC being sensitised about issues by various external sources, including Dassault’s competitors, and the former seeking clarifications for them”.A fresh target time frame for the completion of the negotiations has been set for March-April of 2015. Various reports in the past have noted that Dassault was deviating from the RFP conditions and that the MoD had informed the French company to ‘stick to the RFP’.

From:
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/121...s#.VNssVmiG_iM

Ploughing 100% of the money back into India is a MUCH BETTER deal. No ?

For the Su 30 MKI India is Force to buy only Alloys for the body and engine, EVERYTHING else is made in India, so yes I can live with that.

Not to mention its a LOT Cheaper and gives a HUGE BOOST to our own Indigenous development. THAT is Priceless.

Su 30 MKI availability is Low due to the fact that IAF does not bother stockpiling spare parts. IAF starts doing that, the availability goes up to 80%. That was also indirectly confirmed by Parrikar.

IAF has been pushing for a new toy for ages, its a shame they won't be getting one. Time for them to start streamlining their own operations to improve efficiency and focus on indigenous toys. They don't like it ? Too bad, they better learn to live with it.

Finally stop posting news article that claim one thing or the other. Do you really thinking Dassault is going to say they are working OUTSIDE the RFP ?

That is going to be their FINAL statement till the deal is trashed. Then they will blame the GoI. Otherwise their other customers are going to get very jittery. Its business, not a Honesty contest.

 

[Taygibay]

"Nope, because Dassault wants HAL to do it like Dassault says and don't accept anything else, but that's not up to them to decide!"

That has to be the most stupid thing I've read here in a long while …
So a maker, say Mercedes-Benz is asked by a country to build its flagship product, say the SLS or S-class,
for the local wheelbarrow producer, say Yugo, and provide all knowledge to build and design more over time.
But the local govt wants Yugo do be free to do whatever they want on the production line and Mercedes to shut
the flock up if things go awry. Use bike wheels? Yugo's choice! Replace aluminum panels with cardboard? Yugo's choice! Drill holes in the motor blocks? Yugo's choice! And so on but still, of course,sold and potentially exported as a Daimler product with all blame for Benz for any problem encountered …

Just try and ask McDonnell-Douglas or Lockheed to have F-18s and F-35s built under such rules for fun. Seriously, write to them as an Indian taxpayer and ask them about having their birds built that way by HAL because Dassault is unreasonable. I'd like a poster size version of their answering letter on my bathroom wall for congested days.

Let's reverse that to show it :
Dassault has to do it like HAL wants and accept anything resulting because it's for HAL to decide …
presumably as they know best how to build Rafales?

With that line of thought, China has already won!

You are a troll star, my poor Sancho! You post for effect, bunching up meaningless words and posts so quantity always drowns quality, sorry to say! So many words, so little substance!

I'm darn pleased this was printed here on PDf; with the hard times and all, our Pakistani brothers and sisters need the laughs.

Good day all, Tay.

 

[sancho]

I would rather see 20 Billion $ spent inside India than outside.

Add a 100 more super 30 MKI and Pour 2 billion $ into the LCA program, create and inventory of Su 30 MKI spare parts to increase up time and see how parity builds up again.

Which doesn't make any sense!

MKI is a FOREIGN fighter, licence produced at HAL
MMRCA is a FOREIGN fighter, licence produced at HAL

So no matter if we go for MMRCA or not, we have to spend outside, simply by the fact that we have nothing close to the MKI or Rafale in India!
Also, the idea that just investing more money into the LCA program, miraculously will make ADA and DRDO more capable is simply not realistic. It's not the lack of money that is the problem of the LCA develoment, but the lack of know how and experience! That's why we needed to get the Israelis in to help us in the radar development, that's why we asked the French for help on the engine development, or why we asked the US / Germans for help in navalising the fighter. In all these areas we tried it alone and didn't get it done, simply because we are far away from being at an industrial level to do such challenging things alone and no ammount of money would had changed that!

That's even the prime idea behind MMRCA, to add industrial technologies and know how, from experienced foreign partners to our industry and improve them like that. That's why the tender has high ToT and offset requirements and neither LCA, additional MKI's or even Pak Fa's would offer us the same advantages.

So if you only want to add some fighters for IAF, to counter the falling squadron numbers, additional MKIs or Pak Fa's are an alternative to MMRCA, just as the DM said it. But if you want to improve the industry, with state of the art techs and modern production capabilities and that for a wide range of the Indian industry (not only HAL which is producing MKIs, LCAs and will produce FGFA), MMRCA is the only choice we have!

If MoD accepted the French position now, they are pretty much bending over & offering up their behinds. Dealing with the French sucks.

Very true, no matter how good the Rafale is, the important part of the tender is that we set the rules and are not dependent anymore on what foreign manufacturers or countries are dictating us. And all Indian officials for the last 2 years made it clear, that there is no going back from the RFP, no matter how hard Dassault tries.
The new DM can't do it anyway after his pretty clear statements from December and January, he gave the ball to Dassault and they gave their answer. It's now on the DM to take a proper decision!

 

[Prajapati]

Which doesn't make any sense!

MKI is a FOREIGN fighter, licence produced at HAL
MMRCA is a FOREIGN fighter, licence produced at HAL

MKI is cheaper and almost 90% of it is built in India. Best case scenario for Rafale is that 50% will be built in India and its will be twice as Expensive.

So no matter if we go for MMRCA or not, we have to spend outside, simply by the fact that we have nothing close to the MKI or Rafale in India!

Hence the urgent need to start putting serious money into development.

Also, the idea that just investing more money into the LCA program, miraculously will make ADA and DRDO more capable is simply not realistic. It's not the lack of money that is the problem of the LCA develoment, but the lack of know how and experience! That's why we needed to get the Israelis in to help us in the radar development, that's why we asked the French for help on the engine development, or why we asked the US / Germans for help in navalising the fighter. In all these areas we tried it alone and didn't get it done, simply we are far away from being at an industrial level to do such challenging things alone and no ammount of money would had changed that!

That is how it works in the rest of the world. Know how is gained by DOING RESEARCH which COST MONEY. EXPERIENCE is gained by actually doing Development . ...... both are not Mana from heaven.

We are NOT required to do everything alone, Knowledge sharing and buying of know know how, setting up now research, joint funding of research are all standard parts of indigenous development. That is how the rest of the worlds does it too. You either buy the technology or you STEAL the technology or your develop the tech on your own.

Aerospace Industries are set up when someone gives them MONEY to delivery aerospace stuff we have enough critical mass to do pretty much anything provide money is made available.

That's even the prime idea behind MMRCA, to add industrial technologies and know how, from experienced foreign partners to our industry and improve them like that. That's why the tender has high ToT and offset requirements and neither LCA, additional MKI's or even Pak Fa's would offer us the same advantages.

Prime Idea behind MMRCA is to get New toys to the IAF. Secondary idea is to camouflage it as some sort of Know-how transfer to soften the blow. Let us not start believing our own propaganda or IAF spin.

So if you only want to add some fighters for IAF, to counter the falling squadron numbers, additional MKIs or Pak Fa's are an alternative to MMRCA, just as the DM said it. But if you want to improve the industry, with state of the art techs and modern production capabilities and that for a wide range of the Indian industry (not only HAL which is producing MKIs, LCAs and will produce FGFA), MMRCA is the only choice we have!

NOPE, its is NOT the ONLY choice we have, Not by a long shot. Not by any intelligent assessment.

Very true, no matter how good the Rafale is, the important part of the tender is that we set the rules and are not dependent anymore on what foreign manufacturers or countries are dictating us. And all Indian officials for the last 2 years made it clear, that there is no going back from the RFP, no matter how hard Dassault tries.
The new DM can't do it anyway after his pretty clear statements from December and January, he gave the ball to Dassault and they gave their answer. It's now on the DM to take a proper decision!

The deal is going kaput, ................ because Dassault has no intention of handing over their tech over to us for that price, despite what the RFP says.

Everything else is just hogwash.

 

[Otocal]

MKI is cheaper and almost 90% of it is built in India. Best case scenario for Rafale is that 50% will be built in India and its will be twice as Expensive.



Hence the urgent need to start putting serious money into development.



That is how it works in the rest of the world. Know how is gained by DOING RESEARCH which COST MONEY. EXPERIENCE is gained by actually doing Development . ...... both are not Mana from heaven.

We are NOT required to do everything alone, Knowledge sharing and buying of know know how, setting up now research, joint funding of research are all standard parts of indigenous development. That is how the rest of the worlds does it too. You either buy the technology or you STEAL the technology or your develop the tech on your own.

Aerospace Industries are set up when someone gives them MONEY to delivery aerospace stuff we have enough critical mass to do pretty much anything provide money is made available.



Prime Idea behind MMRCA is to get New toys to the IAF. Secondary idea is to camouflage it as some sort of Know-how transfer to soften the blow. Let us not start believing our own propaganda or IAF spin.



NOPE, its is NOT the ONLY choice we have, Not by a long shot. Not by any intelligent assessment.



The deal is going kaput, ................ because Dassault has no intention of handing over their tech over to us for that price, despite what the RFP says.

Everything else is just hogwash.

Su30MKI is Russia's export to India.