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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Let us understand one thing. There is no tech going to come from the Americans. Never has. Never will.If it comes, will be couple of generations old.

There is no cutting edge tech going to come from the French either. Unless, there is something in it for them. What will this entail? Risk diversification. A program which can be developed together, where monies are put equally on the table. Business is assured for the French companies and Indian companies.

Same applies for Russia and Israel.

Only other way, kick our private companies into R&D. You know how to do it? Give them tax breaks if they invest in a list of universities for research. Ensure universities deliver. Provide them with cutting edge systems and grants to ape the American universities for now. Get the Indian students going abroad with incentives to do research in India under the companies' grants.

Good points ..
But then need to ask how come the opinion of our common people and gullible media cant see the truth which is out there plain as daylight...
Especially since its in context with US India relationship where we talk very big and deliver very little..

About Risk diversification strategy, i dont doubt that but in practical terms what each of the nations want from us in a joint program is our money and their tech as the JV venture.. A case in point being FGFA program or even take Brahmos for example.. essentially there is no true joint program as we learned nothing at blue print level to manufacturing level which helps us use the "learned" technology on other aspects and build on our MIC... Of course IPR is an issue.. But in reality have we learned anything from the JVs?

About R&D part fully agree.. But Tax break and R&D does not go hand in hand... A better way is perhaps asking mandatorily every company to dedicate 1% of their profits on R&D like 2% of last three-year average annual net profit on CSR activities . This way a giant R&D pool can be created for the future...
 
To be honest, 10 billions for only 36 units is crazy. India shall stick with MKI, and continue to churn out Tejas. I would rather induct F16 assembly lines instead of going Rafale. When a fighter is expensive like that, it's not operational capable anymore. It's just expensive showcase.

The good news is that both China and Pakistan are not malign neighbors so that Indians could take their time.
 
Exporting our products : YES.

ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
Because at the end,when Indians will know to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.

@wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness

@Taygibay

I am not a believer of TRUE ToT. Sure you can transplant or copy/paste the facility, and you can transfer technical documents, but you can't really transfer the CORE technologies that others have spent decades and huge amount of resource to master.

I am sure French will teach Indians HOW to make parts, and HOW to put parts together, but they will never tell you WHY it should done in certain way, in fact, nobody in the world will. Indian got a good deal on Mig-21 from Soviet, with full ToT in 1962, and we can see just how much that ToT helped India's aircraft design capability. Can they design a Mig-21 class fighter without substantial foreign help now? I doubt it. They blame everything on SOE, and bet their fortune on private companies now, as if the word "private" is some kind of magic potion.

If you counting the original RFI, India's MMRCA program is about 14 years old now, and we are not seeing the end to it. Negotiation is not about penny-pinching, but it is about getting your original goal accomplished. Maybe Indian can take a leaf from Indonesia's play book on this regard. They are a smaller country, and their main military contractor is a state owned company, but they seem to accomplish a lot.

Indonesian Aerospace Industry | Page 18
 
Reasons Why the Modi govt stuck on Rafale
Posted on February 19, 2016 by Bharat Karnad
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar in a TV interview (to Karan Thapar) yesterday evening sounded very determined that 36 Rafales would be brought from Dassault Avions, France, and that Paris would have to meet Delhi’s stated price (not exceeding $7 billion, which figure, of course, he didn’t mention). In this context, when queried about the significance of the MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) signed when Hollande was here for the Republic Day parade, he stated that this document is “meaningful only to the extent that the procedure [for advancing the deal] is laid out.” The only relief for India, ironically, would be if the French too stick to their negotiating figure of $11+ billion.

The trouble with making price the decisive factor — “Price, he said, “is the only issue…is the problem”, and implied India would walk away from the deal unless India “gets the right price” — is that all the other negatives attending on this horrendous buy are sought to be ignored. While the Indian position is now firmed up, Parrikar’s support for the Rafale suggests that despite his instinct telling him to go in for many more Su-30MKIs obtainable for the same investment, the BJP regime feels bound to honour PM Narendra Modi’s word to Hollande, and is doing its mostest to get the deal done, whatever the other costs (such as complicating operations, logistics, infrastructure, etc) that the IAF and country will have to bear for decades to come.

This raises the question — what exactly is Paris’ quid for the Indian quo? Some well connected persons believe it is Hollande’s promise of supporting India’s candidature for a permanent seat in the UN Security Council, whenever that issue formally comes up for consideration. Realistically speaking, and short of the UN imploding as did the League of Nations in the 1930s when that body proved incapable of stopping Mussolini from occupying Ethiopia, Imperial Japan from absorbing Manchuria, and Hitler from taking over the Sudentanland region of Czechoslovakia, and a new world body is erected in its place, that is never. The provincial politician in Modi, however, seems to be acting as per the Gujarati trader’s credo of honouring a verbal commitment. Except the Rafale deal is in the external realm where “the word” counts for less than nothing, a fact-of-life the PM either does not understand and, if he does, does not quite appreciate. And India ends up paying the price. Any argument therefore about the uneconomical aspects of the Rafale deal are for the birds!

But why’s the IAF so dumb as to disregard the operational aspects and push so vehemently for the Rafale? In a previous piece, I had stated that for the unit cost of $270 million per Rafale, India could buy three LCAs @ $90 million or 2 Su-MKIs @ $130 million. Vice Admiral AK Singh, former FOC-in-C, Eastern Naval Command, and a stalwart of the military procurement process, called to say that my figures were, perhaps, for fully weaponised Tejas and Su-30 and, by way of more “correct” figures, mentioned that the cost of a clean Tejas (as released by HAL) is $30 million, and $50 million for a Su-30MKI. By the AK Singh calculus then the country can have NINE LCAs or FIVE Su-30s. Fully armed and equipped, the cost figures for these three aircraft get even more skewed. A basic weapons load (of A2A missiles & A2G rockets/bombs) will up the price of a Rafale to $400 million per aircraft, $50 million/Tejas, and $90 million/Su-30. Thus, all-up cost ($400 million) of a Rafale will actually fetch IAF EIGHT fully-armed Tejas and 4.5 Su-30s.

In my books and writings have stressed the importance of quantity over quality, and how an exorbitantly-priced Rafale, assuming it is fielded in war considering the Indian military’s inclination to not deploy its most prized platforms during hostilities (recall Vikrant confined to Vizag harbour during the 1965 War! Mirage 2000 was featured in Kargil because of Vajpayee govt’s order to IAF not to cross LoC) would be swarmed and killed by the more numerous Pakistan-assembled, Russian MiG-21 design Chinese rejigged JF-17s, say, each costing Islamabad no more than $22 million. (The $22 million price tag for the JF-17 being disclosed to VADM Singh by retd PAF AVM Shehzad Chaudhury at a recent 2nd-track meet.)

Indian armed services are known for stodginess, not strategic imagination and operational verve. And the civilian bureaucrats running the show in MOD are entirely innocent of any specialized knowledge. So one can pretty much know the quality of advice provided the national security-wise unlettered politicians. Even so, one expected Parrikar to be a bit more on the ball, use his common sense and publicly available information to +try and convince Modi about the sheer wastefulness of the Rafale deal, and decide on more reasonable, money-saving, options (including purchasing Mirage 2000s from UAE and Qatar, as proposed in an earlier blog).

Then again, just may be, IIT grads are not all they are cracked up to be.
 
To be honest, 10 billions for only 36 units is crazy. India shall stick with MKI, and continue to churn out Tejas. I would rather induct F16 assembly lines instead of going Rafale. When a fighter is expensive like that, it's not operational capable anymore. It's just expensive showcase.

The good news is that both China and Pakistan are not malign neighbors so that Indians could take their time.
thats right the rafale deal from day one i guess was a huge frace and niether france nor indian MOD were honest in the deal then it was scrapped but since dassult had already "invested" a huge sum with earlier UPA they wanted a the handsome returns or at least a respectable refund and they got niether hence they jacked up the price and MOD yet again said "no"

having said that whats the future well GE404,414 & 414EP are already done deals and SH F/A -18 has engine cominallity and many american weapons and systems are already in tejas with israeli make hence super hornet is the next MRCA till AMCA comes and MKI is already in for a AESA upgrade which will be good enof till FGFA comes hence no point in going for rafale cause sooner than later when mass production kick starts of F35 its gonna be at same price as that what rafale is or would be in couple of years time so rafale in short is a dead deal ... nuff said :coffee:
 
Although I'm a Chinese, I am so worried for IAF. I don't feel happy about the delay cause I don't feel hostile toward India. Parika shall understand the notion of TIME! Damn it. At least he shall address the bandwidth of all those patriotic Indian members in PDF.

Although I'm a Chinese, I am so worried for IAF. I don't feel happy about the delay cause I don't feel hostile toward India. Parika shall understand the notion of TIME! Damn it. At least he shall address the bandwidth of all those patriotic Indian members in PDF.
 
Exporting our products : YES.

ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
Because at the end,when Indians will know to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.

@wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness

@Taygibay
spoken like a true business man.:enjoy:
so mate what will be the repercussions if deal don't go through and India chose another (hypothetically speaking).:coffee:
 
Although I'm a Chinese, I am so worried for IAF. I don't feel happy about the delay cause I don't feel hostile toward India. Parika shall understand the notion of TIME! Damn it. At least he shall address the bandwidth of all those patriotic Indian members in PDF.

Although I'm a Chinese, I am so worried for IAF. I don't feel happy about the delay cause I don't feel hostile toward India. Parika shall understand the notion of TIME! Damn it. At least he shall address the bandwidth of all those patriotic Indian members in PDF.
knock knock china is never a friend or at least seen like one for any indian deu to 1962 and arming our enemy having said that we can at least live like normal compettitive naighbours (at least we both are trying) so having said that we need to prepair for the worst (india-pakistan+china war) and hope for the best (india china strategick partnership/ firendship) but that never gonna happen till china behaves on its repeated infringements indian territory and bogus claims on our states and islands

so pariker or XYZ that will remain a dream only sad but true look at it through any angel result will be same cheers mate
 
spoken like a true business man.:enjoy:
so mate what will be the repercussions if deal don't go through and India chose another (hypothetically speaking).:coffee:

The Indians will of course buy the 36,because Modi needs this deal. (Face saving,you know...) @C130
And as we found new clients for the Rafale (Qatar,Egypt) and soon a deal could be signed with the UAE for 60 Rafale,(Deal in final stages!),we are in better positions in the negociations than we were 4 years ago.
-
The target might have decreased from 126 to 36,but at least,the 36 will be built in France. (Compared to 18.)
 
thats right the rafale deal from day one i guess was a huge frace and niether france nor indian MOD were honest in the deal then it was scrapped but since dassult had already "invested" a huge sum with earlier UPA they wanted a the handsome returns or at least a respectable refund and they got niether hence they jacked up the price and MOD yet again said "no"

having said that whats the future well GE404,414 & 414EP are already done deals and SH F/A -18 has engine cominallity and many american weapons and systems are already in tejas with israeli make hence super hornet is the next MRCA till AMCA comes and MKI is already in for a AESA upgrade which will be good enof till FGFA comes hence no point in going for rafale cause sooner than later when mass production kick starts of F35 its gonna be at same price as that what rafale is or would be in couple of years time so rafale in short is a dead deal ... nuff said :coffee:
i don't know why you never chose f 18 it was and great plane.if it was spectra or other EW capabilities you were after (as most Indian claim here) then let me show you the EW capabilities of growler.this monster can beat the hell out of f22 in EW what else do you guys need which it can't provide and pls don't say sanctions issue because you are already using american engine for tejas if you guys were so afraid of sanction you wouldn't have chosen it in the first place.
ea18g_f22kill-thumb-445x333.jpg
 
The Indians will of course buy the 36,because Modi needs this deal. (Face saving,you know...) @C130
And as we found new clients for the Rafale (Qatar,Egypt) and soon a deal could be signed with the UAE for 60 Rafale,(Deal in final stages!),we are in better positions in the negociations than we were 4 years ago.
-
The target might have decreased from 126 to 36,but at least,the 36 will be built in France. (Compared to 18.)
wrong Modi was initally for the rafales but when dassult dint agree on the pricing things went bad and the orignally planned rafales were 36+18(french built)+90(indian built+36 M for IN) but now that is history

i don't know why you never chose f 18 it was and great plane.if it was spectra or other EW capabilities you were after (as most Indian claim here) then let me show you the EW capabilities of growler.this monster can beat the hell out of f22 in EW what else do you guys need which it can't provide and pls don't say sanctions issue because you are already using american engine for tejas if you guys were so afraid of sanction you wouldn't have chosen it in the first place.
View attachment 294528
cause USA had have bad experience with kick backs in sub continent and IAF top honchos wount have got a dime had there been a govt to govt deal other wise there is nothing in the world that comes close to super hornets in maturity in AESA tech(radars , EW & ECM suites and avionicks) weapons and weapons intigration and actual combat experience but this "strings attached" is also a frace like TOT to fool gullible tax payers in india ... think about it
 
When you want complete local production and transfer of technology, of course price will be higher than off the shelf price. Add to the fact that ordered number is just 36. India should be prepared to pay higher price than Egypt and Qatar, not lower.

We are also buying off the shelf.
 
If India could closed the deal four years ago, they are taking advantage of everything.
 

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