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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

thats my point the 226 should have passed on to the private sector.
It was Kamov's choice- they chose the safe option with HAL but in the long term have shot themselves in the foot because HAL is working on their own LUH and the Ka-226T and HAL LUH, once their own orders of 200 each start to enter service, will compete for a follow-on order of 100% units (ie 200 more helos)-200+200+200. The HAL LUH should have the cost/price advantedge and thus will likely bag the follow-on order and Kamov have gone ahead and given their competition complete access to their product.

why did dassault want to work with reliance and not anyone else? they dont have experiance building jets.
Outside of HAL, there is no entity in India that does. There are only a few players with pockets deep enough for such a capital intensive project actually interested in getting involved in building jets (TATA, RIL and L&T off the top of my head). Through a process of due dilligence and bilateral discussions Dassualt settled on RIL. The exact reasons why are known only to both those parties- perhaps their visions' aligned?

What if one of the lines is the 'COMBAT HAWK' ???????????
Then it will be made at the existing HAL production line for the Hawks- it isn't part of any of this ;)
 
why did dassault want to work with reliance and not anyone else? they dont have experiance building jets.

When the initial MMRCA was drawn up it was to ensure Indian companies are strengthened in this space. Various players signed up with various Indian companies. Boeing was with TATA and so was LM. SAAB also with TATA. The only groups capable of taking on TATA in India are Reliance, Aditya Birla and Mahindra. Aditya Birla Group is not interested. Mahindra are concentrating on components.

That leaves Reliance. And they are the biggest boys in the house. How big? Well they could possibly buy out majority stake in Dassault if they want to and then go after SAAB. Now, if you want to enter one of the biggest military markets in the world, what would you need?

1. Deep pockets - It does not get deeper than Reliance in India.
2. Government contacts - It does not get 'contactier' than Reliance in India.
3. Aggression - No group is more aggressive than Reliance in India.
4. Execution - The speed of execution of the Reliance group is legendary.

So, Reliance was actually the correct choice, if TATA was not available to setup shop in a country which anyway did not have aerospace experience, because HAL.
 
Its in all possibility going to be Reliance, not TATA. And if there is one thing, I have learnt about Reliance, it is that they get the job done.

The comment by the MoD was, 'it could be one or two'. One line is for Tejas with HAL, he actually mentioned that a second private line could be opened for Tejas. Third line will be Rafale.

This is what, I think, is going to be the case. Rest is noise.

As for the Kamovs, HAL already has a working relationship with the engine providers, with whom they have developed the Shakti engine.

The LCA is independent from what Parrikar said. The LCA line has already been established after all.
 
Building stuff via JV is far easier than doing the stuff alone.
yes agreed

It was Kamov's choice- they chose the safe option with HAL but in the long term have shot themselves in the foot because HAL is working on their own LUH and the Ka-226T and HAL LUH, once their own orders of 200 each start to enter service, will compete for a follow-on order of 100% units (ie 200 more helos)-200+200+200. The HAL LUH should have the cost/price advantedge and thus will likely bag the follow-on order and Kamov have gone ahead and given their competition complete access to their product.
cant hal just expand like what every other bussines should do when they need to?
 
When the initial MMRCA was drawn up it was to ensure Indian companies are strengthened in this space. Various players signed up with various Indian companies. Boeing was with TATA and so was LM. SAAB also with TATA. The only groups capable of taking on TATA in India are Reliance, Aditya Birla and Mahindra. Aditya Birla Group is not interested. Mahindra are concentrating on components.

That leaves Reliance. And they are the biggest boys in the house. How big? Well they could possibly buy out majority stake in Dassault if they want to and then go after SAAB. Now, if you want to enter one of the biggest military markets in the world, what would you need?

1. Deep pockets - It does not get deeper than Reliance in India.
2. Government contacts - It does not get 'contactier' than Reliance in India.
3. Aggression - No group is more aggressive than Reliance in India.
4. Execution - The speed of execution of the Reliance group is legendary.

So, Reliance was actually the correct choice, if TATA was not available to setup shop in a country which anyway did not have aerospace experience, because HAL.

There's nothing hi-tech about Reliance. Btw, the Reliance we are talking about is not Mukesh Ambani's Reliance, it is Anil's Reliance. And Mukesh's Reliance is big only because of oil.

Tata Sons is so much bigger in comparison. They have the only functioning global internet communication network. They build supercomputers. They build aircraft parts as a global Tier 1 supplier. They even have universities that's under the Department of Atomic Energy, TIFR, owned by Tata. Hell they even have their own F1 team. Tata cannot be compared to Reliance in any way. Reliance is entering the defence field only now. Tata has been in it since 2007.
 
About that chopper discussion earlier :


Enough said!

Tay.
can you explain lad.
i dont se how the raflale is able to land on mt everest:p:

When the initial MMRCA was drawn up it was to ensure Indian companies are strengthened in this space. Various players signed up with various Indian companies. Boeing was with TATA and so was LM. SAAB also with TATA. The only groups capable of taking on TATA in India are Reliance, Aditya Birla and Mahindra. Aditya Birla Group is not interested. Mahindra are concentrating on components.

That leaves Reliance. And they are the biggest boys in the house. How big? Well they could possibly buy out majority stake in Dassault if they want to and then go after SAAB. Now, if you want to enter one of the biggest military markets in the world, what would you need?

1. Deep pockets - It does not get deeper than Reliance in India.
2. Government contacts - It does not get 'contactier' than Reliance in India.
3. Aggression - No group is more aggressive than Reliance in India.
4. Execution - The speed of execution of the Reliance group is legendary.

So, Reliance was actually the correct choice, if TATA was not available to setup shop in a country which anyway did not have aerospace experience, because HAL.
yes i have looked these guys up and i remember i saw their name dure the cricket world cup around the boundry. i have heard of tata as they own jaguar and landrover. and i saw how they made the tata nano on megafactories. tata is larger though nearly enough doubleing the revenue of reliance $58billion vs 108 billion.
i feel tata played it safe by choosing to build the c295 instead of the advanced fighters. its the perfect stepping stone.
allas we shall see what happens.
 
cant hal just expand like what every other bussines should do when they need to?
Yes, and they are doing just that. A few weeks back they begun constructing a brand new production line for the LCH and LUH with a capacity of 60 LUH/year.

HAL is easily one of the largest aviation companies in the world by capacity, they are producing/developing the ALH, Rudra, MKI, Hawk, LUH, LCH, HTT-40, Do-228 and HJT-36 simultaneously. The number and variety of aircraft they have made and delivered is absolutely vast.

There's nothing hi-tech about Reliance. Btw, the Reliance we are talking about is not Mukesh Ambani's Reliance, it is Anil's Reliance. And Mukesh's Reliance is big only because of oil.

Tata Sons is so much bigger in comparison. They have the only functioning global internet communication network. They build supercomputers. They build aircraft parts as a global Tier 1 supplier. They even have universities that's under the Department of Atomic Energy, TIFR, owned by Tata. Hell they even have their own F1 team. Tata cannot be compared to Reliance in any way. Reliance is entering the defence field only now. Tata has been in it since 2007.
With deep pockets and an aviation giant like Dassualt holding your hand your success is almost assured.

Hell they even have their own F1 team
No they don't.

yes i have looked these guys up and i remember i saw their name dure the cricket world cup around the boundry. i have heard of tata as they own jaguar and landrover. and i saw how they made the tata nano on megafactories. tata is larger though nearly enough doubleing the revenue of reliance $58billion vs 108 billion.
i feel tata played it safe by choosing to build the c295 instead of the advanced fighters. its the perfect stepping stone.
allas we shall see what happens.
As already explained, TATA signed up with SAAB and Boeing, RIL signed with Dassualt- not everyone can or should sign with TATA, this isn't TATAland, other options exist.
 
p.s I'm a HUGE F1 fan.

I'm not even close to being called a fan. Lol. The most races I've ever watched was when Force India was introduced, and I watched only about half of them. So my knowledge about the sport is that old.

They say watching live is better, so I'm gonna do that someday.
 
can you explain lad.
i dont se how the raflale is able to land on mt everest:p:

You might have missed the chopper in my sentence referring to the KA-226
discussion from a few posts back not the farm tool nor kitchen utensil ? o_O

That video is of a helicopter by the same maker that brought India the Chetak
landing on Everest because it was there, in spiritual line with Hillary and Norgay.
I'm pretty certain that the older Indians got it!
And I blame the latter of your comments on lack of infrastructure; it could! :yahoo:

:enjoy: & :cheers: to you but no good day, ;) Tay.
 
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You might have missed the chopper in my sentence referring to the KA-226
discussion from a few posts back not the farm tool nor kitchen utensil ? o_O

That video is of a helicopter by the same maker that brought India the Chetak
landing on Everest because it was there, in spiritual line with Hillary and Norgay.
I'm pretty certain that the older Indians got it!
And I blame the latter of your comments on lack of infrastructure; it could! :yahoo:

:enjoy: & :cheers: to you but no good day, ;) Tay.
which ever and for your information its good night ;-)
 
There's nothing hi-tech about Reliance. Btw, the Reliance we are talking about is not Mukesh Ambani's Reliance, it is Anil's Reliance. And Mukesh's Reliance is big only because of oil.

Tata Sons is so much bigger in comparison. They have the only functioning global internet communication network. They build supercomputers. They build aircraft parts as a global Tier 1 supplier. They even have universities that's under the Department of Atomic Energy, TIFR, owned by Tata. Hell they even have their own F1 team. Tata cannot be compared to Reliance in any way. Reliance is entering the defence field only now. Tata has been in it since 2007.

Why are you getting defensive about TATA?If you leave out TATA, they are the best candidates for it. They have a tieups with Boeing, LM and SAAB. Anyways, it is better to have multiple groups to be present, rather than one group. Even if that group is TATA.

And its RIL. Not ADAG. ADAG is Pipavav.

i feel tata played it safe by choosing to build the c295 instead of the advanced fighters. its the perfect stepping stone.
.
Well, had Boeing won it would have been the TATAs. Anyways, I hope both of them get something. Nothing like Reliance, Tata and Mahindra going at it in aircraft.
 
SOURCE: Ajai Shukla | Business-standard.com

1453979546-2864.jpg


Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar bluntly stated on Thursday that negotiations for buying 36 Rafale fighters from French aerospace vendor, Dassault, were deadlocked on the issue of price, and that no deal would be signed until the price was right.

Well-informed defence ministry sources that are close to the negotiation say there is a wide gulf between the two sides. “The difference between what France is demanding and what India is willing to pay is too large to bridge easily – about 25 per cent.”

Business Standard understands that Dassault has quoted about Rs 91,548 crore, while Indian negotiators are refusing to go above Rs 68,499 crore.

Parrikar told India Today TV: “Price is the problem which has to be resolved. Unless I get the right price, I cannot sign.”

Debunking recent media articles that a deal was imminent, most recently in Hindustan Times on February 11, Parrikar said ironing out the remaining issues would take “a few months”.

Pressed on the question of time-frame, Parrikar responded: “You can’t commit yourself to a time, because this is not a negotiation for a few hundred crores. This is thousands of crores. I should not… put a time line on my price negotiation.”

On January 25, during his visit to Delhi, French President Francois Hollande declared after signing an inter-governmental agreement for the supply of 36 Rafales, “There are some financial issues that will be sorted out in a couple of days…” It now appears he may have been speaking figuratively.

On January 27, French ambassador to New Delhi, Francois Richier, put a deadline of four months for the price to be negotiated.

On Thrursday, Parrikar also confirmed that India had demanded offsets worth 50 per cent of the deal value, and that Dassault had agreed to that condition.

“We have resolved all the other issues. There were terms of guarantees, there were terms of supply, there were terms of how it will be done”, said Parrikar.

The defence minister denied that the window was open for buying more Rafale fighters, beyond the 36 being currently negotiated. “As of now, the negotiation is for 36 (fighters). There are many possibilities, but this deal is for 36”, he said.

When Prime Minister Narendra Modi, on a visit to Paris last April, requested for 36 Rafales, New Delhi and had Paris agreed the price would be less than what Dassault had quoted in response to the Indian tender of 2007 for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). Of those 126 fighters, the first 18 were to be supplied in “flyaway condition”, i.e. fully built. Since 36 Rafales are now being bought in “flyaway condition”, their per-piece price must be lower than what Dassault quoted for those 18 fighters.

The Indian Air Force had chosen the Rafale on January 31, 2012, in India’s tender for 126 MMRCA aircraft. However, in protracted price negotiations that followed, the defence ministry found problems in Dassault’s financial bid. Eventually, Modi chose to abandon the MMRCA tender, and instead buy 36 Rafales over-the-counter.
 

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