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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Darn, what an amazing source of gems ...

100% of Rafale is not French either.
The only essential non-French part of the Rafale is the ejection seat from Martin-Baker. If you understand anything about their business, you know it does not constitute a potential sanction or ToT problem.
Then there is a short list of imported parts that fall under standard commercial protections not Cismoa et al.
And plans exist to source them in France if the need arises.

The fact that Brazil brought Grippen should put all speculation to rest. It was clearly the one that gave most value for money. (including local production)
Yes, that one you got but Switzerland or all the other contests lost by the Gripen you conveniently missed!
At this point, it's not selective memory, it's flocking selective amnesia! I find it a marker of bad faith.

MKI is strategic because we have 100% ToT and local manufacturing from raw materials.

You wish!

Thnx for the chuckles, Tay.
 
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@raktaka and @Picdelamirand-oil
Just sharing some info for you for what ToT and how tough it is when it comes to execution of any such and how IP will be handled and why Dassult wanted Reliance as partner and not HAL (referring to your above post).

X posting from another forum.

After developing a latest missile decoy system for fighter planes, the Defence Research and Development (DRDO) is now desperately scouting for a metal casing for the product. Available right in the backyard at Nagpur, the component is made in India, but not made for India. As a result, the agency is forced to look for other vendors in private sector, but has not succeeded so far.

Pune-based High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL), a unit under DRDO, has put on display the latest infrared counter measure disruptive system (CDMS) at the Vignyan Bharti exhibition held at VNIT campus. The event is aimed at bringing industries and researchers together. The user trials of the CDMS have proven that the chemical composition, which diverts the missile attack, is fine, but the metal casing needs to be strengthened.

At present, Indian Air Force (IAF) is using the systems supplied by UK-based company Chemring Group. It has been learnt by the agency that the UK company buys the metal casings for its product from a Nagpur-based firm. A mid-sized unit, the company also caters to the ordnance factory and specializes in metallics. However, when approached by HEMRL, the local company has denied having any such product. Though it was reconfirmed by the agency’s own intelligence gathering and through the industry sources, that the casings used by Chemring’s product are from this firm only. The denial has forced HEMRL to look for a different manufacturer. Repeated parleys with the firm have failed, say sources who preferred not to disclose the local company’s name.

“This is a tricky situation,” say sources related to the affair. The company cannot be compelled to share the technology as it is already under a contractual obligation with the British firm. This is the reason it is believed to be so secretive on the matter. There are all chances that the British company may initiate legal action against the Indian supplier, which makes it as helpless as HEMRL in this case.

What looks like a small metal box is reported to be the latest missile decoy system developed indigenously. It diverts the attack of the heat seeking missiles which otherwise can accurately hit the target. The present system available with the IAF can be effective against second and third generation missiles. On other hand, the DRDO product is expected to be useful even when the fourth and fifth generation missiles are fired. However, DRDO cannot go ahead till it gets a stronger box to pack the material.
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HAL has no reason to go for automation just to compensate for Dassault's oversight. That is an illogical assumption.

I don' think there was any oversight on their part. Dassault's job was to give their estimates based on HAL's prices, which they did. Infrastructure costs were separate. Automation has high startup costs, but they reduce total cost of manufacturing over the long term.

And you get better quality with automation.

Even if we assume HAL's slower production practices, it is for Dassault to plan for contingencies and do risk mitigation, especially if its a know risk and HAL is an declared stakeholder.

The problem is Dassault has no control over HAL's production. So they cannot mitigate risks. And when Dassault wanted executive control over HAL's Rafale production, it was denied.

What HAL can bring to the table, NO other private player can bring. That is pretty much the reality. So its pointless to expect Dassault to tie up with Ambani or Kalyani and reduce price on the Rafale, It just won't happen. Its mission impossible.

I don't disagree. That's why Make in India will have less ToT, that will control price. And Dassault will bring in automation in India.

It would have been smarter just to negotiate with HAL and swallow their pride.

Dassault had practically agreed with everything except for being a guarantor for HAL produced Rafales which they had no control over. HAL agreed to be the guarantor, but MoD rejected that. It was CNC that said Dassault should guarantee quality, even without executive control. You don't have the full picture here.
 
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If you want to play with the Big boys, ................ cheap is not an option.

Funding your own R&D is.

That's why Gripen is not a good option.
F16 is a better option.Poland bought 48 F16 block 52 with all the weapons and training for 3.5 Billion US dollars.

I would rather take F18 is we really need a second type of aircraft to replace our legacy fighters, rather than a paper aircraft .
 
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Call it Gripen assembly line and I will agree. Gripen is a dead jet even after India buys 100. No future and nothing to gain from it. We already know how to build a pylon, a wing, a fuselage, a rudder, a tail and all things that had gone to LCA. Gripen brings nothing more to table apart from engine tech which is GE. So lets call it a day for ToT.

Second, If you really need a fighter (I am not sure what MP is saying here), which would be logically a better choice for many things I would opt for Boeing SH. They have a technology base and they are good one in offsets. If and only if there will be a second fighter. It should be Hornet. Gripen does more damage than healing. LCA can do all the things Gripen is doing. LCA mk2 is the Gripen. Adding that is better for IAF and India.

I am not saying Gripen is a bad fighter or anything. I just dont see any value in getting that one, just because we have to have some numbers. and I personally feel Parikar was saying the options available both for fighter and budget.

The purpose of the MMRCA program is now to create an aerospace environment in India in the private sector. So any kind of ToT is useful ToT.

How is it ToT if HAL has to pay for it ? :P

HAL can pretty much buy the stuff from the market.

That was also an option, buying automated systems from the market through tenders. But what Dassault said was if foreign tools were used, then Rafale would require requalification and certification which would bring more delays. IAF wanted the least amount of delays.
 
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The purpose of the MMRCA program is now to create an aerospace environment in India in the private sector. So any kind of ToT is useful ToT.

The question is what kind of that "any kind" of ToT which we dont have and we are looking for.
 
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The question is what kind of that "any kind" of ToT which we dont have and we are looking for.

A company like Reliance has no experience in building a full fighter jet. They don't have any ToT.

TASL can also benefit the same way with a second MMRCA line. They don't have much ToT either.

These companies will eventually get OEM status.
 
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The only essential non-French part of the Rafale is the ejection seat from Martin-Baker. If you understand anything about their business, you know it does not constitute a potential sanction or ToT problem.
Then there is a short list of imported parts that fall under standard commercial protections not Cismoa et al.
And plans exist to source them in France if the need arises.

Nice word play on "essential" :P . I am glad you have admitted that the ejection seat and few components are not French which pretty much validates my point. (I am pretty sure most electronic component comes from China)


Yes, that one you got but Switzerland or all the other contests lost by the Gripen you conveniently missed!
At this point, it's not selective memory, it's flocking selective amnesia! I find it a marker of bad faith.

LOL... why should I have bad faith. I am not a Sake holder here except by virtue of being an Indian citizen.

You wish!
Thnx for the chuckles, Tay.

How many electronic components in Rafale come from china ? return the favour and Make me laugh.

Except for raw material, 100% of Su30MKI is Made in India.
 
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I would love to hear all of your views.. This is getting a bit more murky unless i am missing something
Does this not in perfectly with what we (and even you) have been discussing in the past few days? Talks are on for the off the shelf Rafales but seperately there is a requirement for a vast number of jets to be made in India for which a different (on the face of it) selection process is on. For the second all of the usual MMRCA bidders are in the running and the decsion will be made by the end of the year.

To me, Dassualt remains in the best postion BUT they are being told there are other offers on the table and there may even be scope for a second MMRCA production line just to apply that bit more pressure to secure the entire MII part. I truly hope Dassualt grab this opportunity with both hands and do whatever it takes to secure the full MII deal- they will never get such a export opportunity again. The last thing I want to see is 36 Rafales and 200 F-18s, a mixed MMRCA fleet is a complete joke but it could happen should Dassualt drop the ball now.
 
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Who say that I cannot see the PPP productivity of HAL?
You said that HAL was ahead of Dassault in $ productivity, not in PPP $ productivity because normally planes are not sold in $ PPP.
And you are wrong on the planes manufactured by Dassault they manufacture 11 Rafale (soon 33) and 70 Falcon but these plane are world class aircraft developped in the company.
More Dassault System is a 100% subsidiary of Dassault providing CATIA which is used by all aerospace companies to design their planes.
Revenue €2.346 billion (2014)
Number of employees 13,345
And Dassault also holds 25% of Thales

Wrong. Aircrafts Made in India are not sold in USD, its sold in PPP, in INR. The productivity due to goods and services in India is always measured in PPP.

Su 30MKI is no less sophisticated than rafale, LCA is not less sophisticated than a Falcon. that is a pointless brag.

Unlike the differentiation between Dassault systems and Aviation, HAL does all the prototype building for ADA, DROD and ISRO.

So you need to add the total employees of Dassault systems and Aviation if you really want to measure productivity w.r.t HAL.
 
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The only essential non-French part of the Rafale is the ejection seat from Martin-Baker. If you understand anything about their business, you know it does not constitute a potential sanction or ToT problem.
Then there is a short list of imported parts that fall under standard commercial protections not Cismoa et al.
And plans exist to source them in France if the need arises.
Even the ejection seat is build in France by
SEM MB
98 T BOULEVARD HELOISE
95100 ARGENTEUIL
France
Nous contacter | Martin Baker

Wrong. Aircrafts Made in India are not sold in USD, its sold in PPP, in INR. The productivity due to goods and services in India is always measured in PPP.

Su 30MKI is no less sophisticated than rafale, LCA is not less sophisticated than a Falcon. that is a pointless brag.

Unlike the differentiation between Dassault systems and Aviation, HAL does all the prototype building for ADA, DROD and ISRO.

So you need to add the total employees of Dassault systems and Aviation if you really want to measure productivity w.r.t HAL.
:smitten::wub: :sarcastic:
 
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