Current army distant from it's people

[VCheng]

They have taken a hit similar to the sentiment post 1971 however it is magnified x1000 given the presence of SM now and the threat is not from the external enemies, rather one of infighting turning Pakistani against Pakistani.

I believe there is a paralysis within GHQ to think with clarity and possibly because Bajwa's appointees are not advising Asim Muneer effectively enough to see the writing on the wall which is to accede to the demands of the public and ensure free and fair elections. And to empower the SC to do what it needs to ensure that the sitting government does not play any more games. Tall order, but still easier than what awaits us down the line.

For down the line, I recall this with utter heartbreak what a junior officer mentioned to a senior officer visiting East Pakistan in the run up to Dec. 1971 where the former said "Sir, we are going to be killed like pie-dogs here". Unfortunately, emotionally and sentimentally the awaam has already killed off the fauj like pie-dogs, I hope and pray things don't get violent and that too because the fauj is seen to be siding with PDM.

- A worried Pakistani.

People in the current environment may not like hearing me say this again, but please rest assured all of this will blow over. Trust me.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Ghairat comes after retirement

Ghairat don’t pay bills. Specially when you past your prime and have kids.

2 din ki ghairat aur lifetime ki zilat. It’s not like jobs are out there of ghairtmands.

Situation is not unique to Pakistan btw. Idher b asa hi hy.

 

[blain2]

People in the current environment may not like hearing me say this again, but please rest assured all of this will blow over. Trust me.

Or may not. Like Noor Jahan in Karachi Zoo, the ghissi pitti jamhooriat is also on its last legs (actually poor Noor Jahan cannot even stand on its legs) if certain course correction is not done. Knowing our habits, we never do course correction proactively. We have a habit of pushing our luck. So the straits are dire and are about to get direr in the short to medium term.

 

[M. Sarmad]

People in the current environment may not like hearing me say this again, but please rest assured all of this will blow over. Trust me.

But the 'trust' has fallen apart and things will never be the same again

 

[blain2]

But the 'trust' has fallen apart and things will never be the same again

I have to agree, this one is not blowing over.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Or may not. Like Noor Jahan in Karachi Zoo, the ghissi pitti jamhooriat is also on its last legs (actually poor Noor Jahan cannot even stand on its legs) if certain course correction is not done. Knowing our habits, we never do course correction proactively. We have a habit of pushing our luck. So the straits are dire and are about to get direr in the short to medium term.

Look at it objectively,

Where else have you seen such a sentimental bunch of loosers ?

These men, project themselves as men of war, forged in battle, and yet they can be crushed
by just 2 sentimental hints of a pizza company ?

When you make your days, fooling people with Noor Jahan songs,
then this is the emotional backlash that you get.

No WHERE else will you see an Army, that is so thirsty of recognition, and demands love
like a 17yo sexy 4th wife ...
who has to answer to no one, and takes zero responsibility of household.
just her presence is enough.

 

[VCheng]

Or may not. Like Noor Jahan in Karachi Zoo, the ghissi pitti jamhooriat is also on its last legs (actually poor Noor Jahan cannot even stand on its legs) if certain course correction is not done. Knowing our habits, we never do course correction proactively. We have a habit of pushing our luck. So the straits are dire and are about to get direr in the short to medium term.

In other words, Situation Normal, All Fooked Up. S.N.A.F.U.

Jamhooriat has never been more than a veneer in Gen Zia's Pakistan by design. I do agree that the system is more reactive than proactive, and that the economic situation right now is dire, but I also remain confident that the system will deal with it in its own ways and three days later than necessary. But it will come out at the other end just fine. The twittersphere will calm down too. No worries.

I have to agree, this one is not blowing over.

Patience.

 

[blain2]

Look at it objectively,

Where else have you seen such a sentimental bunch of loosers ?

These men, project themselves as men of war, forged in battle, and yet they can be crushed
by just 2 sentimental hints of a pizza company ?

When you make your days, fooling people with Noor Jahan songs,
then this is the emotional backlash that you get.

It's not this. Sentiments be damned and that too of a few officers that are at the top and running the army. I think the issue is one of distance between the people and our national army.

This is not about military image building etc. etc. It is a fundamental erosion of trust that anyone sitting at the top of the military HAS to realize and reverse.

For whatever our army is, good or bad (I think its mostly good), it's reason to exist is the people and I think along the way this has been lost on people at the top.

Lastly, you say:

These men, project themselves as men of war, forged in battle,"

They don't project that, they HAVE been forged in war/battle. The last 20 years, this army has bled more than most other armies in the world. It has taken on missions that have been incredibly difficult and come on top. It is a national army worth valuing and keeping but the incumbent CoAS has to realize this and take actions and clean up the rot.

 

[Sinnerman108]

It's not this. Sentiments be damned and that too of a few officers that are at the top and running the army. I think the issue is one of distance between the people and our national army.

This is not about military image building etc. etc. It is a fundamental erosion of trust that anyone sitting at the top of the military HAS to realize and reverse.

For whatever our army is, good or bad (I think its mostly good), it's reason to exist is the people and I think along the way this has been lost on people at the top.

Lastly, you say:

They don't project that, they HAVE been forged in war/battle. The last 20 years, this army has bled more than most other armies in the world. It has taken on missions that have been incredibly difficult and come on top. It is a national army worth valuing and keeping but the incumbent CoAS has to realize this and take actions and clean up the rot.

I will take a strict standpoint here.

The Army is ONE institution. Soldier to General.
and if a dumdum lands up at the top seat then I will ask
how was he allowed to survive long enough ?
how was he allowed to promote high enough ?
how did he dodge the pruning mechanisms ?

As for the rest of your post, you probably must have seen it already,
but allow me to reiterate.
Look around you, and count how many kids of army officers are in Pakistan ?
Say brigadier onwards ...
and then ask yourself, why is the people's army so different from the people ?

 

[Kaniska]

I have to agree, this one is not blowing over.

Did the trust of the public went down when army’s action resulted a heavy cost to your nation a catastrophe in 1971?

 

[blain2]

I will take a strict standpoint here.

The Army is ONE institution. Soldier to General.
and if a dumdum lands up at the top seat then I will ask
how was he allowed to survive long enough ?
how was he allowed to promote high enough ?
how did he dodge the pruning mechanisms ?

As for the rest of your post, you probably must have seen it already,
but allow me to reiterate.
Look around you, and count how many kids of army officers are in Pakistan ?
Say brigadier onwards ...
and then ask yourself, why is the people's army so different from the people ?

This can be explained simply.

The chap who makes it at the top has been put through the mill for close to 35-40 years staying on the "professional" military side of the house. Unfortunately, when one becomes the CoAS in Pakistan, suddenly this office exposes the same officer to the "political" side of the house. Some adapt well, some cannot. The incumbent seems to be in the latter category even though he, out of most others, was exposed to the political machinations both as DGMI and then DGI. So call it group-think, paralysis or whatever else, he is clearly not reading the political situation in the interests of Pakistan.

Also, in all of this process of progressing through the ranks, nobody knows how to deal with the political mess that Pakistan is. Aside from reading newspapers, attending a NDU course where other politicians may be present, most officers have an outside-in view of politics. I thought Asim Muneer would be better equipped than most others but till now I have not seen his reading of the situation on hand to be any better than an officer less exposed to politics. Obviously, the very best option would be to say farewell to politics for once and for all and just stick to professional soldiering. That would be my enduring hope and prayer for PA but even that won't clean up the current mess.

To your last point, yes, at the señior officer ranks, perhaps their children have better upward mobility so they don't pick army as a career, but the army is still the people's army because the vast majority of the officer corps remains in the field ranks and retires from these. Only about 9-10% makes it from Maj to Lt Col and even less to Brig and beyond. So the vast majority of the people in uniform are connected to the people and there are a lot of wards of retired officers at PMA currently, always were and hopefully this trend will continue.

 

[Sinnerman108]

This can be explained simply.

The chap who makes it at the top has been put through the mill for close to 35-40 years staying on the "professional" military side of the house. Unfortunately, when one becomes the CoAS in Pakistan, suddenly this office exposes the same officer to the "political" side of the house. Some adapt well, some cannot. The incumbent seems to be in the latter category even though he, out of most others, was exposed to the political machinations both as DGMI and then DGI. So call it group-think, paralysis or whatever else, he is clearly not reading the political situation in the interests of Pakistan.

Also, in all of this process of progressing through the ranks, nobody knows how to deal with the political mess that Pakistan is. Aside from reading newspapers, attending a NDU course where other politicians may be present, most officers have an outside-in view of politics. I thought Asim Muneer would be better equipped than most others but till now I have not seen his reading of the situation on hand to be any better than an officer less exposed to politics. Obviously, the very best option would be to say farewell to politics for once and for all and just stick to professional soldiering. That would be my enduring hope and prayer for PA but even that won't clean up the current mess.

To your last point, yes, at the señior officer ranks, perhaps their children have better upward mobility so they don't pick army as a career, but the army is still the people's army because the vast majority of the officer corps remains in the field ranks and retires from these. Only about 9-10% makes it from Maj to Lt Col and even less to Brig and beyond. So the vast majority of the people in uniform are connected to the people and there are a lot of wards of retired officers at PMA currently, always were and hopefully this trend will continue.

I don't think I was able to communicate my questions clearly.

The amount of cock sucking and "Sir Jee" instilled in YOs is amazing.
and they carry forward the same tradition.
Anyone who has tried to think a step ahead or do something more has been termed
and made a pariah.

Now, let me give you an example ( real example )

Count the number of brigadiers in RWP.
Now count the staff that waters their lawns, cooks, cleans etc for them.
Now ask yourself where is this staff coming from and where are they getting paid from ?
and you will be surprised ... it is CCB that pays for them through taxes collected from
ordinary citizens.

Second example:
Like any other servant of of the state,
Army officers too get paid for a job they are expected to deliver upon.
However, Army officers get to live in Cantonment which is maintained much better than
the city itself.
Now consider a Major, and see out of his total duty hours, or even month,
what percentage of time was he productive for ?
At most his achievement is to turn up on time ...

So what hard work entitles them an evening at the Garrison mess ? and why ?

As for kids with foreign connections is concerned ... really are you that Naive ?
The young GCs are confronted with "Angrezi" the moment they step past Kakul Gates.
And hence forth their lives are spent explicitly or implicitly trying to wash away
their national character, and somehow trying to pass as an angrez.

I have seen young boys, terrified of using a fork and a knife and I have seen the same
young boys turned officers degrading newcomers because they couldn't pass Angrezi test.

Just imagine, how many of these prestigious elite units, still possess , polish and cherish
the silver left or gifted by the Victorians.

Anyway ... I think I have made my point.

All it takes to destroy these heros of battle, is to correct their Angrei grammar or accent once
and I bet he will never have the balls to look up ever again.

 

[Al_Muhannad]

Are you Ras Al Ghoul? ;-)

All roads lead to Amreeka Khan Bahadur. This was the case when these respected elders were in uniform, same is the case now. This is also why PTI/IK are making contacts/lobbying efforts with US congressmen and potentially even the WH.

I understand our urge to not want to be subservient to anyone. However, our situation and the mahaaz that we open up for ourselves and those that others open up (quoting a newly made famous media person) against us require alignment with this Khan Bahadur. I understand the frustrations too since we are the leaders of ummah in our own minds and thus how could we possibly be dependent on others but reality is quite different from wishful thinking.

From day one, I have maintained that Pakistan-US relations were "off-keel" and this was making itself play out in the domestic political side and the stance of the establishment. We are too "ghairatmund" as a mighty nuclear nation to admit this dependency and as such have to lie and constantly put up veneers to shield the reality from our populace. Bajwa and the incumbent, all have nothing personal against IK/PTI. The day the real "Khan Bahadur" puts the stamp of approval on our Khan sahib, he will be ushered back into the halls of power. Everything else is a bundar tamasha on the side.

This reminds of a report that said that Pakistan would cease to exist by 2025 and be absorbed into a south asian superstate under indian hegemony. The current crisis is simply too big to be caused by dress code of IK or AM poking into IK finances.

 

[blain2]

Did the trust of the public went down when army’s action resulted a heavy cost to your nation a catastrophe in 1971?

Yes, it did then too.

I don't think I was able to communicate my questions clearly.

The amount of cock sucking and "Sir Jee" instilled in YOs is amazing.
and they carry forward the same tradition.
Anyone who has tried to think a step ahead or do something more has been termed
and made a pariah.

Now, let me give you an example ( real example )

Count the number of brigadiers in RWP.
Now count the staff that waters their lawns, cooks, cleans etc for them.
Now ask yourself where is this staff coming from and where are they getting paid from ?
and you will be surprised ... it is CCB that pays for them through taxes collected from
ordinary citizens.

Second example:
Like any other servant of of the state,
Army officers too get paid for a job they are expected to deliver upon.
However, Army officers get to live in Cantonment which is maintained much better than
the city itself.
Now consider a Major, and see out of his total duty hours, or even month,
what percentage of time was he productive for ?
At most his achievement is to turn up on time ...

So what hard work entitles them an evening at the Garrison mess ? and why ?

As for kids with foreign connections is concerned ... really are you that Naive ?
The young GCs are confronted with "Angrezi" the moment they step past Kakul Gates.
And hence forth their lives are spent explicitly or implicitly trying to wash away
their national character, and somehow trying to pass as an angrez.

I have seen young boys, terrified of using a fork and a knife and I have seen the same
young boys turned officers degrading newcomers because they couldn't pass Angrezi test.

Just imagine, how many of these prestigious elite units, still possess , polish and cherish
the silver left or gifted by the Victorians.

Anyway ... I think I have made my point.

All it takes to destroy these heros of battle, is to correct their Angrei grammar or accent once
and I bet he will never have the balls to look up ever again.

I count at least 3 different themes/issues that you have combined in your post above.

Sir ji, yes sir is a culture inculcated in uniform. It is a universal military ethos to respect the chain of command. Nothing particular in that about our army only. If what you are alluding to is lack of ability to question, then it comes down to personal character. Yes, you do run the risk of being too noisy and get posted out and in some cases put on adverse report. Maybe this is a rot that needs to be fixed among other things. I do know of cases outside of Pakistan where people quit the military because they feel its too suffocating etc.

Senior officer expenses. This has to be cleaned up from within the military. The belt tightening across the country may lead the army to do the same. No disagreement there.

The third point, I do disagree with you which is the need to learn "angraizi". You have to, if you want to run a competent army. It is simply for the reasons that most of your weapon systems are of foreign origin and we do a despicable job of keeping our vernacular updated to be able to accommodate. We don't do the complex work of localizing the information/documentation/training material that comes with the various weapon systems in use. Zia's Urdu medium nonsense set our workforce back. I say this having lived through that. I don't know how old you are and if you did experience that or not, but it set our youth back.

As you must be aware, the vast majority of our ranks is not competent in the English language (most have not even matriculated from Urdu medium schools) so the expectation is that young officers would help bridge this gap. I have commented on this issue many times in the past. It has nothing to do with the legacy of the angraiz and all to do with a practical need.

Someone had argued with me about the same in the past and I had provided an anecdote from one insider who simply mentioned to me, have them translate the many thousands of pages of manuals for the F-16 flight line into Urdu and then we would have no need to teach our airmen angraizi.

So while eating with forks and knives can be relegated to the dustbin of history, for good or bad, angraizi language cannot.

 

[Al_Muhannad]

Ghairat don’t pay bills. Specially when you past your prime and have kids.

2 din ki ghairat aur lifetime ki zilat. It’s not like jobs are out there of ghairtmands.

Situation is not unique to Pakistan btw. Idher b asa hi hy.

There is name for this phenomenon. On the grand scale, it is called economic warfare. It should not be new to the muslims. We have been threatened by hunger, thirst, poverty, and chaos. It is nothing new.

If a system cannot tolerate your legitimate views as it should in a functioning system, it needs to be buried alive 40 feet deeper.