Cross Border Solutions to India and Pakistan problems !

[Yaduveer]

Enough of finger pointing towards each other, Why not give solution also.It is requested to cross border members to give solution to each other problems in this thread.

1.Please trollers stay away.
2.It is not to mean that India or Pakistan are deficient in solving their own problems but to encourage cross border understanding of not only problems but also limitation and constraints faced by each.

I wrote a solution in response to recent tribune survey.
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Unfortunately, "Muslim first and Pakistani Second" is the Ideology which created problems that Pakistan is currently facing like religious extremism, Military Mullah alliance and Baluchistan nationalism.

Why this ideology still exists after 64 years of existence of Pakistan.
1. Pakistan has got little success in the nation-building.
2. Zia-ul-Haq dictatorship has 'Islamised' the Pakistan in order to get support from orthodox section of society.
3. Middle class could not develop.Middle class means Doctors,Engineers, lawyers and scientists.
4. Debate between whether Pakistan is a "Muslim welfare state" or "Islamic state", is not settled. Yes there is a big big difference between two.
"Muslim welfare state" is a state which strive for welfare of Fellow Muslims by building schools,Hospitals and creating employment from state fund. This is a vision of Qaid-e-Aazam Jinnah.
"Islamic state" is a state which strive for welfare of Islamic religion by creating bigger mosque, more madrasaa for Islamic education and banning of impure "foreign religions" like Ahmediya,Hindus or Jews. This is a vision of Maulana Maudidi.

Consequences of "Muslim first and Pakistani Second" ideology.
1. It created inflexibility in foreign diplomacy of Pakistan, Pakistan can not take side with Israel although both were in same 'USA camp'. Turkey has a flexible foreign diplomacy , hence it is a regional power.
2. A state governor is murdered and neither President,PM and nor Army general able to muster courage to attend his funeral.
3. Even a noble Laurette Abdus salam was shown door because he was ahmadiya.It shows to pakistani youth all what pakistan need is a 'pure' sunni muslim not scientists.
4. Military rule get social approval because the rule want to defend Pakistan from 'Hindu' India.

What Pakistan can do: It has to create a sizable middle class.
It is very disheartening to see even a well educated Pakistani still support "Muslim first and pakistani second"

P.S. I didn't mean India is all virtues and Pakistan is all of vices , India has it's own share of Vices but no one would say "Hindu first and Indian second".
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Here I lay my case with all my imperfections. and I would seek if any Pakistani give us a credible solution to Maoist problem or how India can stand up with China.

 

[Birbal]

I like this thread. I hope some Pakistanis participate and give us constructive solutions for Indian problems.

As for Pakistan's issues with radicalism, I think it goes deeper than "Muslim first and Pakistani Second". The problem lies with the idea behind Pakistan itself. Under the prevalent viewpoint, Pakistan is a state for Muslims in South Asia. Personally, I feel states should not be defined around ethnic or religious identities. This tends to create close mindedness. States should be defined around shared history, intercommunication between citizens of the state, and a shared economic and geographic situation. I dislike the concept of Pakistan as an Islamic nation the same way I dislike the concept of Israel as a Jewish nation.

I think Pakistanis need to redefine their identity around the land and culture that exists there. There are plenty of achievements (both Muslim and non-Muslim) that have been made in the regions of Pakistan, and a vibrant and unique culture is also emerging there. This should be embraced as the new identity of Pakistan.

 

[indianspetsnaz]

the Pakistani nation has been ******* away since its creation partly due to a unstable political atmosphere the the combination of state and religion has caused slow growth and widespread religious violence and discrimination of non muslim minorities in the countries like Hindus,Christians, and Sikhs.

now i am not saying India is 100% tolerant either because we aren't but at least now we are educating our populace to prevent them falling into the clutches of religious extremism and the future is well for a large concentration of secular moderate Indian civilians. lets look at this from this way i mean really how many active extremist training camps are there in Pakistan? remove the radical infrastructure and switch to moderate views be like Turkey lets be perfectly honest guys we are human beings first everything else comes after that nationality religion etc

 

[Android]

as far as kashmir issue is concerned LOC should be recognised as IB thats the only possible solution i can view which would be acceptable to both parties

 

[indianspetsnaz]

as far as kashmir issue is concerned LOC should be recognised as IB thats the only possible solution i can view which would be acceptable to both parties

even if the Pak gov't chose to recognize LOC as IB the Pak army would lose their cause to rule over Pakistan if it wasn't for the Kashmir cause the Pakistani army would not have the support and power it has to rule over Pakistan.

 

[ameer219]

as far as kashmir issue is concerned LOC should be recognised as IB thats the only possible solution i can view which would be acceptable to both parties

Greetings Voldemort,

As much as Pakistan would like to quickly find a solution to this 64 year-old dispute, I find that recognizing LOC as the border, is just like sweeping dust under the carpet. It won't be a good permanent solution. IMHO, additional complications might occur. My 2 cents

Regards
Ameer

 

[indianspetsnaz]

Greetings Voldemort,

As much as Pakistan would like to quickly find a solution to this 64 year-old dispute, I find that recognizing LOC as the border, is just like sweeping dust under the carpet. It won't be a good permanent solution. IMHO, additional complications might occur. My 2 cents

Regards
Ameer

how so? unless you are talking about the identity of the Kashmir people india and pak could work out a joint agreement on giving special status to kashmiris so they could cross over to the other part of kashmir to see their relatives and could work on expanding the tourism industry by creating a joint body that would work on expanding and increasing Kashmiri GDP input from tourism.

 

[NeutralCitizen]

the Pakistani nation has been ******* away since its creation partly due to a unstable political atmosphere the the combination of state and religion has caused slow growth and widespread religious violence and discrimination of non muslim minorities in the countries like Hindus,Christians, and Sikhs.

now i am not saying India is 100% tolerant either because we aren't but at least now we are educating our populace to prevent them falling into the clutches of religious extremism and the future is well for a large concentration of secular moderate Indian civilians. lets look at this from this way i mean really how many active extremist training camps are there in Pakistan? remove the radical infrastructure and switch to moderate views be like Turkey lets be perfectly honest guys we are human beings first everything else comes after that nationality religion etc

Won't be easy Pakistan throw away it's Ataturk( musharaff), I believe the first step is Pakistan need to follow the Malaysian Model rather then Turkey.

---------- Post added at 12:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 AM ----------

Pakistan should look to Malaysia, Where Muslims are allowed to follow Islamic law, While Non Muslims are not.

 

[NeutralCitizen]

For China problems Election Modi.

 

[Alchemy]

Greetings Voldemort,

As much as Pakistan would like to quickly find a solution to this 64 year-old dispute, I find that recognizing LOC as the border, is just like sweeping dust under the carpet. It won't be a good permanent solution. IMHO, additional complications might occur. My 2 cents

Regards
Ameer

Neat .

Its easy to criticize , but do you have any other option which is acceptable to both India and Pakistan ?

 

[Aryavart]

Greetings Voldemort,

As much as Pakistan would like to quickly find a solution to this 64 year-old dispute, I find that recognizing LOC as the border, is just like sweeping dust under the carpet. It won't be a good permanent solution. IMHO, additional complications might occur. My 2 cents

Regards
Ameer

I can understand....kashmir is a lifeline for pak army...but thats your internal matter...IMO if kashmir gets resolved then the leaders of pak will have nothing to say in UN or any world forum or meeting.....ghiste raho jitna ghish sakte ho..

 

[ameer219]

how so? unless you are talking about the identity of the Kashmir people india and pak could work out a joint agreement on giving special status to kashmiris so they could cross over to the other part of kashmir to see their relatives and could work on expanding the tourism industry by creating a joint body that would work on expanding and increasing Kashmiri GDP input from tourism.

Greeting indianspetsnaz,

If we look at the bigger picture, even if all the politicians agree, to declare the LoC as the International border, the reaction from Pakistani people will not be pleasant. From my point of view, it will be dissapointing and tragic that after sacrificing for 64 years for the independence of Kashmiris, the end resolution is to declare it an international border. In fact it could even lead to more extremism inside Pakistan itself by certain organization, who will definitely take advantage of this scenario. Hence, destabilization of Pakistan, will have a profound effect on India, in which both are at a loss. This is theoretical though, but I believe its very much possible.

Neat .

Its easy to criticize , but do you have any other option which is acceptable to both India and Pakistan ?

Greetings Alchemy,

Note, that my objective here is not to criticize but to give feedback on the pros and cons on the above topic.

I believe, that the only way to solve this issue is for Kashmir, to be governed by both GoI and GoP. My idea, may spark negative critism from both sides of the border, but I believe this is the only way. However, the big question here is whether both governments will be willing to compromise? In addition, like what indianspetsnaz has mentioned, special status should be given to Kashmiris. My idea is open for discussion.

I can understand....kashmir is a lifeline for pak army...but thats your internal matter...IMO if kashmir gets resolved then the leaders of pak will have nothing to say in UN or any world forum or meeting.....ghiste raho jitna ghish sakte ho..

Greetings Aryavart,

I have no comments.

Regards
Ameer

 

[Android]

Greetings Alchemy,

Note, that my objective here is not to criticize but to give feedback on the pros and cons on the above topic.

I believe, that the only way to solve this issue is for Kashmir, to be governed by both GoI and GoP. My idea, may spark negative critism from both sides of the border, but I believe this is the only way. However, the big question here is whether both governments will be willing to compromise? In addition, like what indianspetsnaz has mentioned, special status should be given to Kashmiris. My idea is open for discussion.

dude thats IMPOSSIBLE
there is more likekiness of either ind or pak give up their claim on kashmir compared to your idea

 

[ameer219]

dude thats IMPOSSIBLE
there is more likekiness of either ind or pak give up their claim on kashmir compared to your idea

Greetings Voldermort

Not impossible. Just that both countries have too much ego to trust each other. My idea was supposed to be a joint governance. Meaning both sides have to give up their claims, but both sides can joint together to govern Kashmir. But like i said, its just a suggestion.

Regards
Ameer

 

[SQ8]

Since this is a cross border solution.
Lets first look across the border before returning to give comments on the solutions presented before.

From my point of view .. India's greatest issue is ensuring that the middle class revolution that began does not slow down and hit a barrier. There is still poverty in India.. but its relative. After all, one just has to look at a few neighborhoods in the US to see the idea of relative poverty there. Hurricane katrina(not the actress) exposed some of these down trodden areas.

India's economic rise will continue unabashed as long as it does not encamp itself to any power. In the effort to justifiably modernize itself is India risking an arms race with its western and northern neighbor?
Unlike islands such as the United states, India cannot disconnect itself from its surroundings.
On the east it has Bangladesh, a nation that is forever in debt to India for freeing it from a clutches of leftover colonialism.
However.. this debt does not imply tacit control of Bangaldeshi affairs, as this may result in sections of the bengali populous revolting against its own rulers for seemingly acting as Indian puppets. The relations must be that of a caring friend instead of a master. Something India must also balance when it comes to the relations it has with Burma.. a place courting democracy for decades but never on the verge of attaining it.
To the north east.. India has Nepal. A relative vassal state as the Nepalese are very intertwined with their Indian counterparts across the border to offer anything more than passive objections to India's interference in their affairs. India will have to look to check any Chinese efforts in downplaying its role in nepal, efforts there are active as we speak.

Then comes China.
The Indian-Chinese relation is complex simply because of the fact that India has repeatedly courted open threats to China.
Had India not taken an aggressive stance against China in the first place.. both nations would have found themselves as Asian powerhouses taking on the west. In any case, India's move to take China as a potential adversary is as futile as is the US's attempt to do so. China has economically entangled India in massive trade, trade that is essential more so for the Indian economy thangiven credit for. Aggressive statements, military hardware purchases will not benifit India at all vis a vis China.
What will is reciprocating the economic "octupus hug" against China. Investing in China is the way forward for India..
Another issue is China-Pakistan relations. The former had regarded Pakistan as a good way to keep India's attention from focusing on just themselves while the latter regards the former as bully insurance.
India needs to think beyond these relations when it comes to China, it has to disregard Pakistan's threat level and focus on breaking this final traditional alliance.. if China realizes that India is the more profitable friend..it will reduce the diplomatic support Pakistan gets from it.

Coming to Pakistan.. India has to understand the ground situation better. Currently India has moved on from its "Pakistan problem" mindset while the latter's armed forces refuse to accept that their reason of existance is beyond India. This has always been to India's benefit since Pakistan is already crumbling.. its original ideological concept lost, and any new ones have left the state further warped and twisted than it was before.
Moreover, it should have dawned to Indian planners by now that the influential powers in the west have decided on cutting Pakistan down to size. Its nuclear weapons which have stood as the deterrent to India are flagged for neutralization.
This is a fight that India does not need to get into.. just watch. But when it does assume belligerent postions against its ailing neighbor... it gives Pakistan's establishment another excuse to live on , to justify its excesses.
While it is too much of a humanitarian demand to ask, India must consider the people of Pakistan its future relation and not the establishment. A people who are now more and more convinced of peace with India. Any attempts by the establishment through political and proxy voices to convince otherwise have not received the response they wished.
All weapon purchases being made by India should not provoke an arms race, rather an olive branch while modernizing forces will go a long way in convincing the Pakistani voter that India was never a problem for Pakistan.
What India must understand.. is that its mortal enemy.. the Pakistani establishment.. will only get weaker through peace.. and not war. When there is nothing but a dove of peace from India, all belligernt talk to justify expenses or existence to the Pakistani people by this entity will diminish.
Not all Pakistani Military officers wish for war.. and a large section would rather just have a quiet peace and concentrate on other tasks.

Coming to kashmir, India need not be overly flexible. By suppressing any sponsored or indigenous acts of self-determination in Kashmir India is only providing fuel for prolonging the guerrilla effort. India must nurture the kashmiri, make him feel part of India .. or perhaps even more. A well fed, well clothed.. employed person will not hold any grudges. Past excesses by Indian security forces in kashmir must be acknowledged and the culprits punished. This will build up the confidence of the local population and further enforce their views of shunning any thoughts of separating from India. The concept of "the future of Kashmiris lies with India(be they of any religion)" must not be forced.. rather enticed to develop. Kashmir is not Palestine.. No Kashmiri has been ejected from their land.. and Kashmir has been a part of ancient India for a long time. All that is needed is pacification by compassion and
caring is the way to go. the result would be resilient to any outside efforts for enticing violence.

Then there are Maoists.. its the same solution.. listen, reason.. entice.Make India the attractive option, currently it is not. Not suppress.



Now coming to the points raised in post 1..some corrections.
1.The ideology is not wrong..its interpretation is. We are Muslims first and Pakistanis second.. but India is not the reason we are so.

2.The Islamization started out During Bhutto's tenure.. but that was tempered and with the demands of the people.
Zia forced the views of a few on the masses and created hydra assets for state use.
The same was used against India.

3.He was collateral damage in an religious conflict.

4.Exactly.. India has been used as the excuse for being allowed to commit all sorts of excesses. But then again..India has helped this idea along.

But the biggest suggestion.. to both sides. Is for people to people contact.
To give a weird example.. there is a big difference when you tell your girlfriend(sincerely) "I love you" on a text message.. and when you say it to her face.
Its human contact that changes perceptions.. not government to government.
The more the latter is encouraged.. the sooner problems will be solved.