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Covid killed his father. Then came $1 million in medical bills

It's free for poor people and those who aren't poor should buy insurance (like Obamacare) so they don't play a gambling game.

What's the gamble in it?

BTW in Canada even poor people have to pay taxes. In the US there is an income threshold you have to cross (I think $23,500).

It's the same in Canada. These myths have been created by US politicians at the behest of their patrons to keep the US citizens oblivious. The "hours in waiting rooms" is another hilarious one.
 
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What's the gamble in it?

They keep getting sent the bills instead of an insurance company. I'm sure it would be endless.


"Before subsidies, the average lowest-cost Bronze plan in 2020 was $331 per month and the average Silver plan was $$442 per month, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. However, after subsidies, the average person in HealthSherpa’s study paid $47 because they received a subsidy of an average of $634. Although the sticker price of Obamacare plans can be high, 94% of people received a subsidy on HealthSherpa during 2020 Open Enrollment."


~$50/month ($600/yr) to not have to worry about medical bills....and many gamble by not doing it...and then the horror news articles appear.
 
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It's the same in Canada. These myths have been created by US politicians at the behest of their patrons to keep the US citizens oblivious. The "hours in waiting rooms" is another hilarious one.

How long does it take to get an MRI or a joint replacement in Canada vs the US?
 
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They keep getting sent the bills instead of an insurance company. I'm sure it would be endless.

I don't get it.


"Before subsidies, the average lowest-cost Bronze plan in 2020 was $331 per month and the average Silver plan was $$442 per month, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. However, after subsidies, the average person in HealthSherpa’s study paid $47 because they received a subsidy of an average of $634. Although the sticker price of Obamacare plans can be high, 94% of people received a subsidy on HealthSherpa during 2020 Open Enrollment."


~$50/month ($600/yr) to not have to worry about medical bills....and many gamble by not doing it...and then the horror news articles appear.

Where do you think those subsidies are coming from?

ps: You pay $331 a month and still have to cover 40% of all expenses? That's insane.



How long does it take to get an MRI or a joint replacement in Canada vs the US?

10 days on average for nonemergent patients, reportedly.

All tests are performed based on priority bases. If you need an MRI today, you will get it today. No one dies because he/she can't afford it, no one goes bankrupt, and no one receives treatment tomorrow when they need it today.

"To help ensure patients most in need are seen first, a radiologist at the hospital/imaging centre assigns you a priority level of 1 to 4. For non-emergencies, priority 2 is the most urgent. (Priority 1 means emergency, so those patients get their scans immediately and are not included in wait times data.)

Your priority level will be based on:

  • your particular symptoms and medical history
  • the radiologist’s experience
  • medical research and best practices
Because priority levels are assigned based on specific criteria, you can be sure your wait time is appropriate for your condition."



How many Americans die and/or go bankrupt due to no universal healthcare? How much is your insurance premium? How many claims are rejected in the US?
 
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10 days on average for nonemergent patients, reportedly.

All tests are performed based on priority bases. If you need an MRI today, you will get it today. No one dies because he/she can't afford it, no one goes bankrupt, and no one receives treatment tomorrow when they need it today.

"To help ensure patients most in need are seen first, a radiologist at the hospital/imaging centre assigns you a priority level of 1 to 4. For non-emergencies, priority 2 is the most urgent. (Priority 1 means emergency, so those patients get their scans immediately and are not included in wait times data.)

Your priority level will be based on:

  • your particular symptoms and medical history
  • the radiologist’s experience
  • medical research and best practices
Because priority levels are assigned based on specific criteria, you can be sure your wait time is appropriate for your condition."

https://www.ontario.ca/page/wait-times-diagnostic-imaging#section-1

Reportedly. I know the actual wait times. Canadians drive to upstate NY to get these (and other) exams regularly (except for COVID times).

How many Americans die and/or go bankrupt due to no universal healthcare? How much is your insurance premium? How many claims are rejected in the US?

Those criticism are perfectly valid and true. USA DEFINIITELY needs to do a better job of providing better healthcare to ALL its citizens, I agree. However, this discussion gets tied up in political warfare, as is the case with most things in this messy democracy.

Having said that, on topic, the balance billing for COVID related bills will never be collected, I can assure you.
 
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Reportedly. I know the actual wait times. Canadians drive to upstate NY to get these (and other) exams regularly (except for COVID times).

Better than the government of Ontario? Still, missed the entire point. Ask them if they'd still come over if their tests in the states weren't covered. Unlike the Americans who still come here while paying out of their own pockets.

Those criticism are perfectly valid and true. USA DEFINIITELY needs to do a better job of providing better healthcare to ALL its citizens, I agree. However, this discussion gets tied up in political warfare, as is the case with most things in this messy democracy.

Having said that, on topic, the balance billing for COVID related bills will never be collected, I can assure you.

Americans are being fooled, quite easily, into serving the monetary interests of billion dollar corporations at the detriment of their own lives. For the rest of the world it's just amusing that the very people worst effected by it are its strongest defenders. Covid or not, half a million American households still go bankrupt every year.
 
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They dont have a free healthcare but billions available for military. Even Pakistan have a cheaper healthcare.

The American military budget for 2020-21 is 934 billion dollars ! Why ? Which alien race is imminently threatening to invade America ?

Funnily, America doesn't have free, universal healthcare yet it invades countries which had free, universal healthcare.

In China this is completely free of charge

You have written about COVID treatment in China but I don't think the rest of the medical problems have free treatment in China. There was a thread some months ago some people from China, perhaps the middle class, not able to afford high-quality treatment in China and coming to India for treatment through the Indian medical tourism industry. Irony is that lot of Indian middle class people find it difficult to get treated and then be economically stable. And I won't even talk of cancers and kidney ailment, or indeed the poor Indians.

Killing and invading is in their blood... Anything for "dear" Israel.

Not always for Israel. For example, the American / NATO conspiracy against Cuba and Venezuela is not directly connected to Israel. Or the 2011 invasion of Libya.

It's free for poor people and those who aren't poor should buy insurance (like Obamacare) so they don't play a gambling game.
They just asked for my insurance card and that was that.

1. I am sure there are quite a few American homeless people who are deprived of basic healthcare.

2. Why this complicated system of insurance / private insurance companies ?

3. An Indian person I know who now lives in USA told me that there if you don't have insurance you have to pay the Indian equivalent of 7000 Indian rupees for a tetanus injection shot. So if a dog bites you, you can develop serious illness if you don't have insurance.

4. Why can't American follow the example of a co-Western country - Spain - which last year nationalized all private hospitals and clinics and made free healthcare available to all citizens ?

5. Why should there be the traditional economic system that has the classification - the rich, the middle class and the poor ?

Capitalism don't spare anyone ,even the sick and dead ones.

Yes, that is being amply and visibly displayed in India right now. Hindu priests along the Ganga river charging ( why even charge ? ) hugely more money to perform the funeral rituals of COVID / non-COVID deaths and the families not able to afford that so they just float away the bodies without rituals into the Ganga. Of course, earlier the bodies used to be floated away half-burnt after the funeral but now no funeral.

India has been an extremely capitalist society for the last 3000 years because of the dominant culture.

Americans are being fooled, quite easily, into serving the monetary interests of billion dollar organizations at the detriment of their own lives. For the rest of the world it's just amusing that the very people worst effected by it are its strongest defenders. Covid or not, half a million Americans still go bankrupt every year.

That will continue in USA ( and by effect in many parts of the world ) as long as there are unnecessary capitalist complications like the New York Stock Exchange. The Occupy Wall Street movement should be reactivated into public view.
 
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Better than the government of Ontario? Still, missed the entire point. Ask them if they'd still come over if their tests in the states weren't covered. Unlike the Americans who still come here while paying out of their own pockets.

Once again conventional wisdom is wrong. The "10 days on average for nonemergent patients" is nowhere near the reality:

===============================================================================================
The total wait time that patients face can be examined in two consecutive segments.

  1. From referral by a general practitioner to consultation with a specialist. The waiting time in this segment increased from 10.1 weeks in 2019 to 10.5 weeks in 2020. This wait time is 184% longer than in 1993, when it was 3.7 weeks. The shortest waits for specialist consultations are in Quebec (7.9 weeks) while the longest occur in Prince Edward Island (27.2 weeks).
  2. From the consultation with a specialist to the point at which the patient receives treatment. The waiting time in this segment increased from 10.8 weeks in 2019 to 12.1 weeks this year. This wait time is 116% longer than in 1993 when it was 5.6 weeks, and 4.3 weeks longer than what physicians consider to be clinically “reasonable” (7.8 weeks). The shortest specialist-to-treatment waits are found in Ontario (8.7 weeks), while the longest are in Nova Scotia (30.1 weeks).
It is estimated that, across the 10 provinces, the total number of procedures for which people are waiting in 2020 is 1,224,198. This means that, assuming that each person waits for only one procedure, 3.2% of Canadians are waiting for treatment in 2020. The proportion of the population waiting for treatment varies from a low of 1.97% in Quebec to a high of 9.97% in Nova Scotia. It is important to note that physicians report that only about 12.39% of their patients are on a waiting list because they requested a delay or postponement.

Patients also experience significant waiting times for various diagnostic technologies across the provinces. This year, Canadians could expect to wait 5.4 weeks for a computed tomography (CT) scan, 11.1 weeks for a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan, and 3.5 weeks for an ultrasound.
==============================================================================================

The above data are from 2020 from this source: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wait-times-for-health-care-in-canada-2020

(To be fair, this is still a huge improvement from the wait times reported from previous years, although still pretty bad.)


Americans are being fooled, quite easily, into serving the monetary interests of billion dollar organizations at the detriment of their own lives. For the rest of the world it's just amusing that the very people worst effected by it are its strongest defenders. Covid or not, half a million Americans still go bankrupt every year.

Again, it is almost axiomatic to declare USA as stupid by those who think they know better on PDF. Maybe it is the Canadians that are being duped into paying higher taxes while being profiled into tiers to make health care rationing more palatable. The fact remains that, for all the criticisms leveled against the US healthcare system, it still delivers high quality care for a vast majority of the population. If Americans are fools, what it does it really say about the rest of the world? :D

Seriously though, USA healthcare is at the forefront of new medicines, treatments and techniques across the related disciplines. Just look at how quickly the COVID vaccine was developed using technologies created over the years. And there is a robust and well-funded pipeline that is likely to continue functioning well into the future with constant effort.
 
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I saw a huge change is on the horizon.

I believe in the coming decades, the USA will be far more socialist than today.
 
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They dont have a free healthcare but billions available for military. Even Pakistan have a cheaper healthcare.
Yes, neither does China either. These folks want to promote it is free; it is not.

It was a question we had in our conversation with my good friends who studied in China and some are from China; even their first secretary who is my family friend confirmed it.
 
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Once again conventional wisdom is wrong. The "10 days on average for nonemergent patients" is nowhere near the reality:

===============================================================================================
The total wait time that patients face can be examined in two consecutive segments.

  1. From referral by a general practitioner to consultation with a specialist. The waiting time in this segment increased from 10.1 weeks in 2019 to 10.5 weeks in 2020. This wait time is 184% longer than in 1993, when it was 3.7 weeks. The shortest waits for specialist consultations are in Quebec (7.9 weeks) while the longest occur in Prince Edward Island (27.2 weeks).
  2. From the consultation with a specialist to the point at which the patient receives treatment. The waiting time in this segment increased from 10.8 weeks in 2019 to 12.1 weeks this year. This wait time is 116% longer than in 1993 when it was 5.6 weeks, and 4.3 weeks longer than what physicians consider to be clinically “reasonable” (7.8 weeks). The shortest specialist-to-treatment waits are found in Ontario (8.7 weeks), while the longest are in Nova Scotia (30.1 weeks).
It is estimated that, across the 10 provinces, the total number of procedures for which people are waiting in 2020 is 1,224,198. This means that, assuming that each person waits for only one procedure, 3.2% of Canadians are waiting for treatment in 2020. The proportion of the population waiting for treatment varies from a low of 1.97% in Quebec to a high of 9.97% in Nova Scotia. It is important to note that physicians report that only about 12.39% of their patients are on a waiting list because they requested a delay or postponement.

Patients also experience significant waiting times for various diagnostic technologies across the provinces. This year, Canadians could expect to wait 5.4 weeks for a computed tomography (CT) scan, 11.1 weeks for a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan, and 3.5 weeks for an ultrasound.
==============================================================================================

The above data are from 2020 from this source: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wait-times-for-health-care-in-canada-2020

(To be fair, this is still a huge improvement from the wait times reported from previous years, although still pretty bad.)

So side stepping the point again?

Again, it is almost axiomatic to declare USA as stupid by those who think they know better on PDF.

Clearly...it's just PDF.

Maybe it is the Canadians that are being duped into paying higher taxes while being profiled into tiers to make health care rationing more palatable.

Them and the entirety of the developed world. They also argue it beats being profiled into tiers of social class to make lack of health care, corporate interests trouncing your health, and price gouging more palatable.

The fact remains that, for all the criticisms leveled against the US healthcare system, it still delivers high quality care for a vast majority of the population. If Americans are fools, what it does it really say about the rest of the world? :D

That it has enough sense to provide high quality care for all of its population. Those Canadians and their better life expectancy metrics across the board, that too without going bankrupt from medical bills or taxes....fools.

Seriously though, USA healthcare is at the forefront of new medicines, treatments and techniques across the related disciplines. Just look at how quickly the COVID vaccine was developed using technologies created over the years. And there is a robust and well-funded pipeline that is likely to continue functioning well into the future with constant effort.

And that is an excuse against universal health care because?


Yes, neither does China either.

95% of their population is largely already covered under one of their programs, reportedly.
 
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One coronavirus survivor manages her medical bills in color-coded folders: green, red and tan for different types of documents. A man whose father died of the virus last fall uses an Excel spreadsheet to organise the outstanding debts. It has 457 rows, one for each of his father’s bills, totaling over $1 million.

These are people who are facing the financial version of long-haul COVID: They’ve found their lives and finances upended by medical bills resulting from a bout with the virus.

Their desks and coffee tables have stacks of billing documents. They are fluent in the jargon of coronavirus medical coding, after hundreds of hours of phone calls discussing the charges with hospitals, doctors and insurers.

“People think there is some relief program for medical bills for coronavirus patients,” said Jennifer Miller, a psychologist near Milwaukee who is working with a lawyer to challenge thousands in outstanding debt from two emergency room visits last year. “It just doesn’t exist.”

Americans with other serious illnesses regularly face exorbitant and confusing bills after treatment, but things were supposed to be different for coronavirus patients. Many large health plans wrote special rules, waiving copayments and deductibles for coronavirus hospitalisations. When doctors and hospitals accepted bailout funds, Congress barred them from “balance-billing” patients — the practice of seeking additional payment beyond what the insurer has paid.

Interviews with more than a dozen patients suggest those efforts have fallen short. Some with private insurance are bearing the costs of their coronavirus treatments, and the bills can stretch into the tens of thousands of dollars.

“There are things I’ve researched, and known I should do, but I have a fear of being blindsided by the bills,” said Lauren Lueder, a 33-year-old teacher who lives in Detroit. She has depleted $7,000 in savings to pay for treatment so far. “You end up with a battery of tests, and every single thing adds up. I don’t have the disposable income to constantly pay for that.”

For 10 months, The New York Times has tracked the high costs of coronavirus testing and treatment through a crowdsourced database that includes more than 800 medical bills submitted by readers.

Those bills show that some hospitals are not complying with the ban on balance billing. Some are incorrectly coding visits, meaning the special coronavirus protections that insurers put in place are not applied. Others are going after debts of patients who died from the virus, pursuing estates that would otherwise go to family members.

Coronavirus patients face significant direct costs: the money pulled out of savings and retirement accounts to pay doctors and hospitals. Many are also struggling with indirect costs, like the hours spent calling providers and insurers to sort out what is actually owed, and the mental strain of worrying about how to pay.

Miller, like many other patients, described trying to sort out her complicated medical charges — in her case in color-coded folders — while also battling the mental “brain fog” that affects as many as half of coronavirus long-haul patients.

“I have a PhD, but this is beyond my abilities,” she said. “I haven’t even begun to look at my 2021 bills because we’re still dealing with 2020 bills. When the bills come nonstop, you can only deal with so much.”





Why US don't have free health care like in Canada? @dbc @Hamartia Antidote
Only in USA, a true capitalist paradise
 
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So side stepping the point again?



Clearly...it's just PDF.



Them and the entirety of the developed world. They also argue it beats being profiled into tiers of social class to make lack of health care, corporate interests trouncing your health, and price gouging more palatable.



That it has enough sense to provide high quality care for all of its population. Those Canadians and their better life expectancy metrics across the board, that too without going bankrupt from medical bills or taxes....fools.



And that is an excuse against universal health care because?




95% of their population is largely already covered under one of their programs, reportedly.

I guess it depends on the population.

One country defines itself by religion and codifies it in its Constitution. Another is willing to let faceless bureaucrats ration out healthcare and yet have the patience to wait months and months for routine care. Some countries might be okay with generous social nets only because someone else pays for covering them with a defense umbrella. Another population may like its shiny new high speed trains so much that they are okay with applying for permits to travel on them or even have quotas for babies.

And yet another country does not believe that universal healthcare is a right that must be given to all, whether they work for it or not, thereby choosing personal responsibility over social safety nets.

This is not to say in any way what is wrong or right, it is just that different people decide differently for themselves.
 
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only because someone else pays for covering them with a defense umbrella.

Then there are most; evolved and financially secure enough to pay for covering the less fortunate fringes, even from the neighboring country, with their own umbrella. Others just are not...but only until they find themselves at the other end of the table and on top of the front page.

Like I said, it's just amusing for the rest of us.
 
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