Countering Cold Start doctrine by PAF

[prototype]

Do some reading before spouting.

what is that,idiot,half of that post is not even written by me

 

[Joe Shearer]

Actually, the feeling that I'm getting is that we've underestimated the scale of the project. Many assumed that when they spoke of reorganization of battle groups and stuff like that that was it. Fact is, that was just a temporary & immedeate. From IA's perspective it seems to be a fundamental gearing up lasting ten/twenty years for the doctrine to be realized. I mean, the fibre optic communiation networks, the sats, the AWACS and associated equipment required to create the capability required- that drop in on day one right? They're getting into the system in a planned, phase wise approach over a period of ten/15 years. n all of those are quite important for a strategy like this to really work. So you do what you can immedeately and then over a period of time systematically build the infrastructure and keep doing those training exercises so that you can fully realize the potential.

Dear Sir,

Indeed you are right. Some of the issues you mentioned are important. There are others, far more important. In sum, Cold Start is a work in progress. No doubt there will be refinements as we go along; there will inevitably be the alternative of striking the weaker services individually, for instance. Quite easily done, with no scope for the PA to interfere, and every possibility of grinding down the two services to a state of operational collapse.

Sincerely,

 

[indushek]

Dear Sir,

Indeed you are right. Some of the issues you mentioned are important. There are others, far more important. In sum, Cold Start is a work in progress. No doubt there will be refinements as we go along; there will inevitably be the alternative of striking the weaker services individually, for instance. Quite easily done, with no scope for the PA to interfere, and every possibility of grinding down the two services to a state of operational collapse.

Sincerely,

Nice to see you back sir. Were u on a holiday??

On topic i fully agree that Cold start seems to be a very long term plan. In addition to AWACS and other military platforms the eye in the space i.e SATS will be playing a larger role. As i have seen recently our country is going for exclusive military sats for each service to provide better visibility. The problem of dummy locations will persist no doubt but as u said refinements will be made over the period.

In addition i would like to bring out a possibility which i have been thinking for a long time, our scientists are working on laser technologies as other defence intensive nations and KALI though not weaponised would come into picture sooner or later. This could be really effective, but would take time.

All said and done i don't think when the moment arrives our government will wait for a nuke to fall and millions die and then retaliate, which the adversary thinks is what is going to happen.

 

[Guynextdoor]

When the most professional country ie USA has already used Nuclear weapon knowingly that enemy was not armed with Nuclear warheads, USA has no moral or any right to stop using nuclear weapons's first use. In an actual war scenario with pakistan or china, India shall only be fool not to use Nuclear weapon as offensive than counter strike. If enemy don't wont India on face of Earth than India has every right to go to any length to wipe out the every nooks and corner of enemy country. God knows while we have followed principles of No-First use of WMD, or defensive style of life over last 1000 years. Just dump our old thining and use every trick and oppertunity in the book to achieve the supremacy in the World. Time of Live & Let Live long gone. It's time of Survival of the Fittest. Hinduism has to reinvent itself among the 1000 years continued bloody war between Islam & christianity. World only listen to the Strength.

I'd rather lose a war than be the FIRST to use a nuke. The only justification for a nuclear attack will be as a retaliation for a nuke strike. We've also got to think of the kind of country we want to be and killing a million people to prove a political or ideological point isn't worth it. We AIN'T the WEST. We are the EAST.

 

[Rafi]

War between two nuclear powered nations, dodgy, things can spiral out of control, a nuclear exchange could result in the destruction of one country and the end of a civilisation.

International experts believe the NCA (National Command Authority) with the three Operational Commands ASFC, NSFC AFSFC, (Army Strategic Force Command, Navy Strategic Force Command, Air Force Strategic Force Command) have strategic weapons deployed with forces that have trained and practiced launch.

 

[indushek]

War between two nuclear powered nations, dodgy, things can spiral out of control, a nuclear exchange could result in the destruction of one country and the end of a civilisation.

International experts believe the NCA (National Command Authority) with the three Operational Commands ASFC, NSFC AFSFC, (Army Strategic Force Command, Navy Strategic Force Command, Air Force Strategic Force Command) have strategic weapons deployed with forces that have trained and practiced launch.

India on the other hand rely's heavily on its air force as her prithvi missile is obsolete and unreliable.

And these International experts also believe that India infact doesn't have a working missile and will fall to any attack by you don't they. Just to satisfy your ego please don't post ridiculous statements. Time of prithvi is long gone but is enough for this side.

There are better missiles like Agni and our best Shaurya a hybrid hypersonic missile.

If u think these too are also obsolete than may god help u.

Watch your mouth he hasn't abused any one personally, and u calling him such a word shows ur attitude.

 

[HariSeldon]

Some hints:
Divya Astra (Divine Weapon). The first war game to demonstrate aspects of the new Cold
March 2004 exercise.

Vajra Shakti. The second test of the Cold Start concepts was the May 2005

Desert Strike. Six months after Vajra Shakti, the Indian military undertook
a third test of both its new doctrinal concepts and its ability to conduct joint
operations

Sanghe Shakti. May 2006 saw the fourth and largest test of Cold Start doctrine; corps-level exercise

Ashwamedh. The fifth major exercise designed to test the Cold Start doctrine, April–May 2007.

After these the main exercise there has been at best combined exercises on a form of Air Land Battle doctrine, a morphing of the intended Cold Start. These later exercises have been at best battle groups follow the concepts of manoeuvre warfare.

Manoeuvre warfare not quite the original of Cold Start.

RR, I am aware of these and read reports regarding these excercies. But then again, reports which I read were not very comprehensive. Also its more than 2 years since any new ex being done, which as I had read in someother forum, created doubt if IA is rethinking on CS.
(Last ex I am aware of is one done Ashwamedh.)
The big question to settle is whether this is combined doctrine or its only IA's child. My reading is limited. I have yet not read that IAF has brought on board regarding this.

I know that what IA is talking about is not something new, but what variation they are working on in not still in public domain.

 

[lionheart007]

I am reading this thread from starting it self . I want to bring some my view in this blog
First thing we have to ask is why India will attack Pakistan in any case and what are the option India will have and what are the option Pakistan will have in a realistic scenario .
Take my word if there is an another terror attack which India feels came from Pakistani soil (both state or non state actor) India will be left with no choice attack the terrorist camp using surgical strike deep inside Pakistani soil . Pakistani will counter using there air force it will be being of the war (because to defend iaf assets and plane against Pakistani fighter iaf have to engage paf plane ). Due to public pressure Pakistan will have no choice but to declare war against India .
India will start implementing it cold start doctrine were as Pakistan will use it offensive defense doctrine . in case of a India is consider it will deploy it massive force using it iaf assets . (Pakistani cannot counter it because paf does not have required amount of fire power and India has better and bigger amount of sam to counter paf). Pakistani will only think about using there nuclear weapon but it is not so easy India already have s300 sam which can counter Pakistani ballistic missile . we have an active abm program which as very good success rate .
do you Pakistani think India will keep quit until you launch nuclear tipped missile ? do nothing

 

[shanixee]

Friends this thread is not to discuss who is better then who but to discuss how can PAF counter Cold Start Doctrine. plz stick to the topic.

Regards

 

[Tshering22]

Friends this thread is not to discuss who is better then who but to discuss how can PAF counter Cold Start Doctrine. plz stick to the topic.

Regards

Any war or maneuver requires synchronized assaults from all the three services, buddy. PAF alone won't be playing the game here. Your ground forces as well as your naval fleet will also be an equally critical part. I'd say that PA would have a greater part to play since in this part of the world, Army gets the lion's share of all activities (Pakistan, India and China). Unlike Israel which keeps air force as its top arm and US which keeps Navy as its preferred iniatiator, in Asia it is mostly the Army that does the job.

 

[HariSeldon]

Actually, the feeling that I'm getting is that we've underestimated the scale of the project. Many assumed that when they spoke of reorganization of battle groups and stuff like that that was it. Fact is, that was just a temporary & immedeate. From IA's perspective it seems to be a fundamental gearing up lasting ten/twenty years for the doctrine to be realized. I mean, the fibre optic communiation networks, the sats, the AWACS and associated equipment required to create the capability required- that drop in on day one right? They're getting into the system in a planned, phase wise approach over a period of ten/15 years. n all of those are quite important for a strategy like this to really work. So you do what you can immedeately and then over a period of time systematically build the infrastructure and keep doing those training exercises so that you can fully realize the potential.

Guynextdoor, You see 2 words that I highlighted. These are 2 diff arms. I have yet to see that all three services are on same page regarding CS. I agree preprations take time, but its now more than 5 years. 50%-33% of time period that you mentioned has elapsed. And we have to yet to see some movement in IA regarding CS. IA need to reorganize and reposition. Its not yet started.

My feeling is what Joe has mentioned in his reply to your post. CS makes absolute sense for IN. Its perfect for IAF. Also, while IN and IAF,if successfull, can do more damage to PK's war fighting ability than IA and this without crossing the PK's N-threshold.

 

[SQ8]

Dear Sir,

First with regard to NBC gear, I am aware that it is a temporary measure of protection, and is not intended to last long. This was in response to his vague brandishing of tactical nuclear weapons.

However, the point was weak. It is an absurd proposition that one side will use tactical nuclear weapons and the other side will then quietly fade away. As Ratus Ratus has already said, any introduction of nuclear weapons, whether tactical or strategic, will escalate the war straight away. You will understand that in such an eventuality, nobody will stop to calculate kilotonne yield, mode of delivery and target and then conclude that a tactical nuclear weapon is not a use of nuclear weapons. The first reaction to such a tactical nuclear weapon will be retaliation.

Tactical nuclear weapons are a joke in this scenario.

Secondly, nobody is advocating nuclear war, but then nobody is advocating a free license to one neighbour to attack the other at will, and be assured of no retaliation. Such an assurance cannot be given. Unfortunately, there is a very real failure on the part of Pakistanis in general to understand that the present peace drive is a Manmohan Singh initiative; it does not necessarily have much support even in the Congress party, leave alone the mass of the country. These peace drives happen every time there is a sentimental Punjabi seeking peace at any cost.

On his departure, which is a question of time, you may confidently expect a significant change in our foreign policy, and in our state security policy too. The present Home Minister is a hawk, and is inclined to advocate drastic measures. These are not my wishes or my hopes, these are facts available on enquiry.

If there is another large-scale incident, there will be consequences, and the threat of nuclear weapons, tactical or otherwise, will not count. The Pakistani establishment makes a major error in understanding, in assuming that there is a perpetual position of neutralisation due to Pakistan's possession of nuclear weapons. It may prevent an attack, it may not prevent a counter-attack.

So the question of building up the body to neutralise a gun holder means only that if gun neutralises gun, the stronger man beats up the weaker. If either gun is used, the other gun will instantly be used.There is no asymmetric doctrine possible, given the ground-level hostility between the two peoples.

Sincerely

I disagree in earnest as to the use of tactical nuclear weapons being a joke.. they are a very real threat. And going nuclear means that in one fell swoop all shiny hardware that both sides might still have left will be either no longer a factor or may even cease to exist( along with a large measure of the population of both sides)...
I dont believe that even in the gun vs gun situation.. the big guy is going to have a better future.. I somehow find it amusing and disturbing at the same time as to how many Indians here are prepared to accept nuclear war and the death of millions of their fellow countrymen for the greater cause..and hope that they will survive to rebuild an irradiated and devastated country. delusional to say the least.
If Dr Manmohan's frail stature is a reflection of his standing in the Indian public as well then I would say let the hawks have their way.
Since if the common Indian is pleased and content with the need to wage war then let it be. See if the bigger guy makes it out alive..only the real deal will tell.

 

[alibaz]

Dear Sir,

The man with the hammer is neither the first nor the second; it is a mono-maniac who insists on seeing the world in terms of one proposition and one only. In this case, everything in the world that occurs is seen in terms of Indian aggression. So, purchase of large transport aircraft, formulation of a doctrine to govern the eventuality of war, to quote just two examples, and with everything else that happens to align with this view as well. That is why to the man with the hammer, the world looks like a nail. It has nothing to do with your limited buying and your unlimited buying, for example.

Regarding the Mumbai incident, this is what you did say:

What I think is India creates a Mumbai like situation

Some questions for you:

1. Do you think India created the earlier Mumbai situation? Please feel free to say yes; as the truth emerges, point by point, be sure that you will be reminded at every step.
2. If not, if you accept it was an attack by Pakistani terrorists, why did you insinuate that it was an "Indian creation"?

It is quite all right to state, in the teeth of all evidence, that Mumbai was a secret plot by the Indian state to make another country look bad. It is just that I would like you to say it and be on record. It builds the case for a certain class of people being inclined to conspiracy theories in desperation at not being able to defend themselves.

Sincerely,

Sir the question you posed is like you are either with us if not then you are with taliban? isn't it?

Sir what all is proved in Indian courts is based on probe by Indian agencies which starts from Kasab and finishes with Kasab. Pakistan has been provided with the dossiers basing on interrogations and findings of Indian agencies but evidence of those dossiers was successfully defended by suspects (nominated by Indian agencies) through their lawyers in Pakistani courts.

Out of all attackers there is one survivor and we find only his Rambo style photos in media. why not of the others.

Who were the other Pakistani who got killed.

Local facilitators have been acquitted due to lack of evidence. Then how were they so precise and on target without sufficient knowledge about the area.

What benefit this episode could have offered to Pakistan once it was already pressurized on western front.

How all those who reached Mumbai on boats could not be detected by blue water Indian Navy.

Was it to counter Samjhota Express incident Where Indian Army colonel was held responsible and during this incident the investigator of Samjhota Express case was eliminated.

Why Indian agencies were reluctant for a joint inquiry. We dont enjoy that degree of mutual trust where either side can blindly trust investigation by other side.

By the way Kasab was really caught in mumbai? I v heard probably he was caught months earlier in Nepal.

I think there is a lot to be thought about before blaming anyone.

 

[Vinod2070]

Oh no! Not again.

All this has been rubbished so many times. Even GOP is not asking these questions any more.

 

[ambidex]

@Patriot

Cold Start is/was a joke. Mumbai proved that it failed as a deterrent.

Zaraver [spellings] was mixing PA's military misadventures and terrorism, both are different and irrelevant to be correlated.

Cold start is not an automatic deterrence but an option readily available to InA to be used at optimum time. In other words we will start it and will finish it as well (no flames).

He forget to consider difference between Kargil and Mumbai terrorist attacks (though PA refused accept its fallen at start in kargil). Zaraver was giving credit to PA for its deceptions and was talking like a bloger but not like a military expert.

Zaraver also thinks that PA can use such terrorist attacks to deter India and forgot to mention that India can do the same.

Zaraver didn't thought that InA do not dictates political decision making of India.

Zaraver forgot to mention that PA will be at state of high alert most of the time in future and will have to stretch more than before while configuring; which out of 7 columns will punch the hole into IB.

Hell the whole premise behind it was a joke. As I detailed on *** the plan was doomed in its goals from the start.

India has been working on it and PA is working against it therefore is axiomatic for those who are making befuddling comments about it.

It was never going to mobilize faster than the Pakistanis, never going to penetrate far and fast to threaten population centers or destroy a large part of the PA, not without wrecking itself in the process.

That is true but still do not counters against cold start offencive of InA. CSW do not stress on time once triggered but on objective+wayout. PA can go for full scale war if it wants including Nuclear war. Also IAF is going to play a very decisive role in that. Pakistan should invest more on that area to counter it. Not with likes of someone who thinks BVR capable PAF will be sufficient enough to cause trouble to IAF and InA altogether.
When IAF birds range will rarely become victim{victim as an air force term}.

Plus tanks that are good enough to engage the IA inside Pakistan. Where the Pakistanis will be fresh and at best lightly attrited by the IAF, but the IA will be tired, low on consumables and heavily attritted.

Valid point, even kasarkin has made this point before. If India will be able to take offencive into Pakistan territory then Tank versus Tank war can not guarantee PA's upper hand (or any one's). So above argument do not halt Indian aspirations about CSW. Taking PA by Surprise is the key which will exhaust PA more than InA. IAF will outnumber your air assets, and please discuss how deep InA has to go before reaching its objectives.

Regards