Could Pakistan's JF-17 Be A Cheaper Alternative To Jets Like the F-35?

[mingle]

Block 70/72 cost is around 160 to 200 million dollars. Whereas cost of one JF-17 Block 3 is no more than 40 million dollars.

In fact PAF can buy +4 JF-17 Block 3 from the money to buy on F-16 Block 70/72.

Morocco bought 24 and Taiwan bought 66 Blk70 last month DSA certificate total value is 4.9$ billion 90 jets do math per copy about 18-19 jetts per billion about 50 million per copy

 

[Marker]

Morocco bought 24 and Taiwan bought 66 Blk70 last month DSA certificate total value is 4.9$ billion 90 jets do math per copy about 18-19 jetts per billion about 50 million per copy

Taiwan Sale
According to DSCA contract dated 20 August 2020, 66 F-16C/D Block 70 aircraft and related equipment and support for an estimated cost of $8 billion were sold to Taiwan.

Here is the mathematics:
8,000,000,000 / 66 = 121,212,121.21.... (approx +121 million dollars per aircraft)
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sal...ative-office-united-states-tecro-f-16cd-block

Morocco Sale
According to DSCA contract dated 25 March 2020, 25 F-16C/D Block 72 aircraft and related equipment and support for an estimated cost of $3.787 billion were sold to Morocco.

Again mathematics:
3,787,000,000 / 25 = 151,480,000 (151.48 million dollars per aircraft)
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/morocco-f-16-block-72-new-purchase

 

[Vapour]

Taiwan Sale
According to DSCA contract dated 20 August 2020, 66 F-16C/D Block 70 aircraft and related equipment and support for an estimated cost of $8 billion were sold to Taiwan.

Here is the mathematics:
8,000,000,000 / 66 = 121,212,121.21.... (approx +121 million dollars per aircraft)
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sal...ative-office-united-states-tecro-f-16cd-block

Morocco Sale
According to DSCA contract dated 25 March 2020, 25 F-16C/D Block 72 aircraft and related equipment and support for an estimated cost of $3.787 billion were sold to Morocco.

Again mathematics:
3,787,000,000 / 25 = 151,480,000 (151.48 million dollars per aircraft)
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/morocco-f-16-block-72-new-purchase

These two DSCAs contain equipment and maintenance support on top of the F-16s.

 

[Marker]

These two DSCAs contain equipment and maintenance support on top of the F-16s.

Well without support equipment you cannot fly an aircraft. Whenever we talk about cost of aircraft system we include cost of its support equipment.

 

[Vapour]

Well without support equipment you cannot fly an aircraft. Whenever we talk about cost of aircraft system we include cost of its support equipment.

So, your $40 mn figure for the Block 3 included armaments, spares and maintenance support?

 

[mingle]

Well without support equipment you cannot fly an aircraft. Whenever we talk about cost of aircraft system we include cost of its support equipment.

Even blk 3 is homegrown but then you have to add cycle cost too like you adding in blk 70

 

[Marker]

So, your $40 mn figure for the Block 3 included armaments, spares and maintenance support?

It could be lesser per aircraft if you buy in greater quantity.

Actually whenever you buy a new weapon systems you need to have maintenance and operational support facilities plus its armament. In the beginning you need first and second line maintenance facilities.

 

[Marker]

Even blk 3 is homegrown but then you have to add cycle cost too like you adding in blk 70

F-16 Block 70 airframe service life is 12000 hrs whereas JF-17's is 4000 hrs ie F-16 Block 70 has 3 times more life than JF-17.

But if you realize the development cycle of F-16, the original life was 4000 hours. Under Service Life Enhancement Program (SLEP), these aircraft were gradually upgraded to 8000 hrs and now 12000 hrs.

Same will be done for JF-17 at PAC. Do you know why 50 year old Mirages are flying in PAF though they had pass their original life? Because at PAC all Mirages undergo SLEP. All major critical bulkheads and spars are being replaced with new modified ones.

Service life enhancement is a continuous process.

An interesting fact. Service life of F-35 is 8000 hrs.

 

[LeGenD]

I know when IAF inducted SU-30 MKIs in late 90s, similar comments were heard. At that time PAF pilots were working out on tactical strategies to counter Su 30 MKI threat.

This so called "phus phusi" will one day shuff a missile in the engine of Israeli F-35 as we did to Su-30 MKI on 27 Feb. Then we will recall your statement.

This level of overconfidence can prove expensive to us instead, my friend.

Russian jets are more hype than substance on average. This was clear to me back in the 1990s.

Following revelation is from an Indian back in 2017: https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...es-problems-despite-russian-spare-parts-deal/

Its just that lesser informed Indians have the unfortunate habit of shouting and boasting a bit much.

I reminded many Indians through the years that F-16 in capable hands will be sufficient counter to Su-30 MKI in Indian hands, to no avail. Well, I was proven right in 2019.

And now I am pointing out that it would be grave miscalculation to underestimate American equipment in similar vein. Americans not just provide jets but offer and emphasize training for their use. At some point, Indians will learn and develop tactics of their own.

F-35 represent a completely different spectrum of threat in comparison to the likes of Su-30 MKI and any other 4th generation. F-35 have sufficient sensor sensitivity to track incoming missiles in real time and give pilot the opportunity to intercept them. Imagine this.

F-35 also offer See First and Shoot First advantage to the pilot whereas Su-30 MKI is like a truck and is easily spotted from afar. This is not a fair comparison.

 

[Figaro]

F-35 also offer See First and Shoot First advantage to the pilot whereas Su-30 MKI is like a truck.

This is the exact reason why 4th or 4.5th gen aircraft just cannot compete with 5th gen aircraft. What is the use of your payload, maneuverability, or speed if you will be blown out of the sky before you ever even see your target on radar? The only way 4th gen aircraft could be effective is when operated in tandem with 5th gen aircraft through datalinks/networks, much like the US, China, and other NATO countries. But 4th gen alone against 5th gen is basically hopeless.

 

[Marker]

This level of overconfidence can prove expensive to us instead, my friend.

Russian jets are more hype than substance on average. This was clear to me back in the 1990s.

Following revelation is from an Indian back in 2017: https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...es-problems-despite-russian-spare-parts-deal/

Its just that lesser informed Indians have the unfortunate habit of shouting and boasting.

I reminded many Indians through the years that F-16 in capable hands will counter Su-30 MKI in Indian hands, to no avail. Well, I was proven right.

And now I am pointing out that it would be grave miscalculation to underestimate American equipment in similar vein. Americans not just provide jets but offer and emphasize training for their use. At some point, Indians will learn and develop tactics of their own.

F-35 represent a completely different spectrum of threat in comparison to the likes of Su-30 MKI and any other 4th generation. F-35 have sufficient sensor sensitivity to track incoming missiles in real time and give pilot the opportunity to intercept them. Imagine this.

F-35 also offer See First and Shoot First advantage to the pilot whereas Su-30 MKI is like a truck.

I do agree that F-35 is currently a very potent weapon system.

But sometimes, strengths become weaknesses....

Good tacticians exploit this rule. They exploit strength of the enemy in their favor and achieve success.

I am very proud that the PAF pilots are very capable, well trained, highly skilled, motivated, dedicated and really good tacticians. They did it in past and they will repeat it again.

If PAF pilots can successfully stand against F-15s with their Mirages and F-6s that too without radar, using only ground comm link for situation awareness, they can again repeat this feat in actual air battle.

If PAF Mirage can perform an attack pass over an US aircraft carrier without being detected, then why not against Israeli AF F-35.

Yes quality of weapon do play a major role in a battle in general, however the final outcome always depend on the man behind the gun.

 

[Nomad40]

JF-17 Thunder and F-35 are two very different aircraft.

However they have an interesting technical solution in common.

Both use DSI (Diverterless supersonic inlet)!!!!.

Hear I would like share a very interesting video.

JF-17 Thunder Block 3 & F-35 - What do they have in common?

Some of the interesting comments are:

(1) JF-17 has lots of bangs for the bucks. It cost half of the F-16 but provide more punch than half of F-16.
(2) Ideal machine for poor Air Forces having limited fire power. JF-17 will act as high component for these Air Forces.
(3) It may enable larger Air Forces to pursue quantity rather than quality doctrines. In some cases it is an attractive option.
(4) In Jf-17 there is much more than meets the eye.

An aircraft is nothing but a weapon delivery platform and judging by that the only comparison can be made is in accords to weapon systems yes agility and Flight characteristics are important but how an Aircraft (A weapons system platform/Weapon delivery platform) actually delivers the weapons is what needs to be assessed. Other factor's do come into play which gives you a better chance/potential of delivering the package. I would consider Radar as the Part of the weapon system platform.

Stealth two folds those potential so does Advanced AI, Flight computes and EW suites gives an aircraft a better better potential to Deploy weapons.

Pilot is the brain how the Pilot Orchestras his instruments will have a huge role.


Obviously the F-35 is a whole generation ahead and is a better weapons system and delivery platform than the Jf-17.

 

[denel]

Continuation of introductory statement in post # 1 of this thread.

I humbly request all Pakistani members to seriously discuss this topic.

Keeping in view current geopolitical situation, specially Israel's relationship with UAE and India, there is a possibility, that PAF facing Israeli F-35s.

We all are comparing IAF Rafales, but if Israel decide to attack our nuclear sites using F-35 parked in IAF/UAE bases, this will be a greater challenge. Israelis are good pilots and can exploit the capability Israeli F-35 to the fullest.

What should be PAF strategy to counter this threat?

Appreciate that Israeli Air Force F-35 already flew undetected over Iranian Air Space.

Come friend ... focus on real threats vs threats in dreams only.

 

[LeGenD]

I do agree that F-35 is currently a very potent weapon system.

But sometimes, strengths become weaknesses....

Good tacticians exploit this rule. They exploit strength of the enemy in their favor and achieve success no doubt.

I am very proud that the PAF pilots are very capable, well trained, highly skilled, motivated, dedicated and really good tacticians. They did it in past and they will repeat it again.

If PAF pilots can successfully stand against F-15s with their Mirages and F-6s that too without radar, using only ground comm link for situation awareness, they can again repeat this feat in actual air battle.

If PAF Mirage can perform an attack pass over an US aircraft carrier without being detected, then why not against Israeli AF F-35.

Yes quality of weapon do play a major role in a battle in general, however the final outcome always depend on the man behind the gun.

Dear,

Professionalism of PAF is not in question in this debate - PAF is on another level of competitiveness in comparison to IAF.

While Indians continue to restrict themselves to Russian and French offerings for IAF, PAF found a way to counter advances of IAF through constructive partnerships with USA, Turkey, France and China through the years. PAF also attached much importance to producing quality pilots and tactics to make sure that it will be able to counter IAF in potential encounters. Now the problem is that France have seemingly ditched us and Americans might be on the fence too. WE can make do without France with support of Turkey but what about USA?

Now entire Western hemisphere is giving offers to India. Winds are shifting in short.

You are alluding to Pakistani accounts of the 1980s, but much have changed since. Sensor systems have become much more capable in later years and USN have achieved sensor-netting on the levels not witnessed before (i.e. Cooperative Engagement Capability). Chances of surprising Americans with impressive maneuvers have declined to large extent by now.

F-35 provide 360 degree coverage of all manner of threats across vast expanses of terrain and air space. It provide See First and Shoot First advantage over majority of jet fighters in service worldwide. This aircraft is on another level of capability in comparison to overhyped Russian items, particularly in Indian inventory. Imagine dealing with a squadron of F-35 up in the air...

Understand now?

 

[Marker]

Dear,

Professionalism of PAF is not in question in this debate - PAF is on another level of competitiveness in comparison to IAF.

While Indians continue to restrict themselves to Russian and French offerings for IAF, PAF found a way to counter advances of IAF through constructive partnerships with USA, Turkey, France and China through the years. PAF also attached much importance to producing quality pilots and tactics to make sure that it will be able to counter IAF in potential encounters. Now the problem is that France have seemingly ditched us and Americans might be on the fence too. WE can make do without France with support of Turkey but what about USA?

Now entire Western hemisphere is giving offers to India. Winds are shifting in short.

You are alluding to Pakistani accounts of the 1980s, but much have changed since. Sensor systems have become much more capable in later years and USN have achieved sensor-netting on the levels not witnessed before (i.e. Cooperative Engagement Capability). Chances of surprising Americans with impressive maneuvers have declined to large extent by now.

F-35 provide 360 degree coverage of all manner of threats across vast expanses of terrain and air space. It provide See First and Shoot First advantage over majority of jet fighters in service worldwide. This aircraft is on another level of capability in comparison to overhyped Russian items, particularly in Indian inventory. Imagine dealing with a squadron of F-35 up in the air...

Understand now?

So in other words PAF cannot counter Israeli F-35s, if they intrude Pakistani air space.

This thread was meant to discuss the strengths and weakness of F-35s and PAF weapon systems specially JF-17 Block 3 and suggest solution to counter this formidable threat.