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Congrats India for 3 Trillion GDP

What you mean does not recognise? China certainly expanded the ICP sampling regimen past the cities (like it was before and thus not so good for China). China certainly recognises the validity of it...PPP is used in HDI and plenty of indices instead of nominal.

This indicator is not used domestically. News media still focus only on GDP.
Government report never mention PPP.
It is not a valid performance evaluation index for government officials, while GDP actually is significant index for Chinese government and officials.
China's state-owned media even have criticized PPP. They say PPP is not an internationally recognized index.

环球时报:说中国GDP今年超美不靠谱--观点--人民网/ Global Times: It's unreliable to say that China's GDP will surpass American this year. -- People's Daily
http://opinion.people.com.cn/n/2014/0930/c1003-25766141.html
When foreign media say China has overtaken America using PPP, that is the response of China's state-owned media.

That is "not recognize".

I think what CNSpeed was trying to say is the official GDP target is the growth rate based on local currency RMB, constant price. The official source doesn’t refer either GDP in USD current or constant forms, or PPP GDP current or constant form. They are only used by academics or international agencies for comparative study purposes.
Thank you, that's what I mean.:-)
 
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This indicator is not used domestically.

Well of course its not meant to be used domestically at all. That is for the local currency only.

Just like USD won't be used domestically either.

I am only talking about international comparison methodology.

It is not a valid performance evaluation index for government officials, while GDP actually is significant index for Chinese government and officials.

Yes of course. CNY for China, INR for India, Euro for Eurozone, Yen for Japan....when it comes to the national govt stats and record keeping and analysis etc.

PPP makes no sense to use as internal measure like that for a govt (compared to even USD nominal)....since its not a physical asset to begin with.

China's State-owned media even have criticized PPP. They say PPP is not an internationally recognized index.

Well I don't know what they mean by that. It is internationally recognised and used extensively (and being refined each successive iteration to be better). China itself increased the sampling regimen from the 2005 to 2011 ICP:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/india-and-china-a-gdp-comparison.455611/page-4#post-8812159

I mean you can criticize use of USD to measure a non-US economy as well....in fact a lot more (for reasons I stated previously). Simply using exchange rate (with USD) determined by say 10 - 15% of your activity (trade/investment flow) to be a 1:1 extrapolation with the 100% of your total economy (just to have some international currency reference i.e USD) is very flawed thing to do for countries the size of China and India that are still developing/integrating.

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Aim for 2025 looks to be 5 trillion for Indian nominal USD GDP:

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...lion-economy-by-2025/articleshow/67562058.cms
 
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Well of course its not meant to be used domestically at all. That is for the local currency only.

Just like USD won't be used domestically either.

I am only talking about international comparison methodology.



Yes of course. CNY for China, INR for India, Euro for Eurozone, Yen for Japan....when it comes to the national govt stats and record keeping and analysis etc.

PPP makes no sense to use as internal measure like that for a govt (compared to even USD nominal)....since its not a physical asset to begin with.



Well I don't know what they mean by that. It is internationally recognised and used extensively (and being refined each successive iteration to be better). China itself increased the sampling regimen from the 2005 to 2011 ICP:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/india-and-china-a-gdp-comparison.455611/page-4#post-8812159

I mean you can criticize use of USD to measure a non-US economy as well....in fact a lot more (for reasons I stated previously). Simply using exchange rate (with USD) determined by say 10 - 15% of your activity (trade/investment flow) to be a 1:1 extrapolation with the 100% of your total economy (just to have some international currency reference i.e USD) is very flawed thing to do for countries the size of China and India that are still developing/integrating.

Although the exchange rate is fluctuating, a currency of healthy economy won't keep depreciating or appreciating for long time. The longer the time, the smaller the impact of exchange rate.

What about PPP?

Though Taiwan has a higher PPP than Japan, Germany, and Canada, Taiwanese themselves never believe they have better life than most old capitalist countries.
If you know consumption idea and consumption structure about Taiwan, you will know why they have a very high PPP.

They import food from mainland, therefore their food prices are low.
They consume few expensive goods.

How to evaluate the standard of living?
The better way is not using PPP, but to compare the consumption of each commodities.

Food prices in poor country are bound to be low, and nationals of this poor country are incapable of consuming expensive goods.
PPP is an inaccurate index tend to flatter the economies of poor countries, and make the gap between rich countries and poor countries look smaller.
 
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No system is perfect, we are talking about lot of data gathering, processing and refinement in the end....each stage has defects and flaws...each stage creates information loss (especially when you refine).



What you mean does not recognise? China certainly expanded the ICP sampling regimen past the cities (like it was before and thus not so good for China). China certainly recognises the validity of it...PPP is used in HDI and plenty of indices instead of nominal.



Well PPP is merely the bridge to compare GDP (in RMB, Yen, Rupee, Euro, Ruble, ringgit, rupiah, SGD, Pound, Swiss France, CAD etc etc etc) of local currencies to each other directly without having to bridge through USD (that every country in the world except just one.... do not control the printing and underlying seigniorage of)....given USD is not a 100% ubiquitous reference in every country, not even close. Neither can it be ideally extrapolated at exchange rate level (which is determined by trade/investment) to an entire country production (especially when the trade level percentage wise is low compared to GDP..... and the trade composition is different to the GDP composition in terms of goods and services).

So of course RMB (for China) or whatever local currency of a country is the 1st most useful thing (thats what provides the underlying production and growth data in the first place).

I am talking more about when we want to compare A and B across the fact countries have different currencies they control and measure in. Using USD as this bridge exclusively (or even largely) is flawed, because not everyone has connected to USD forex the same way and same level (and neither is that a static level as the larger world globalises and insulates in spurts in different industries and activities of relevance).

This is part of the reason why for example it is very dumb to use USD nominal per capita numbers for China say pre 1980s when it was hugely insulated and literally had tiny amounts of USD forex and foreign trade/investment (and even that low amount...went thru and was stockpiled mostly in HK for a reason). The GDP in USD was artificially depressed by this far beyond the inherent low GDP production (in both RMB and equivalent PPP if it existed back then). In fact this largely accounts for why India had higher GDP nominal per capita (in USD) during the cold war compared to China even though China had vastly larger underlying energy consumption per capita (though both were quite low overall)...its again because India (as insulated as it was from USD/global liquidity) was not as insulated as China was in that period with the larger world economy....thus USD/INR exchange rate (as distorted as it was) still captured more of the larger consumption picture than it did inside China at that time.

This was the whole part of the reason PPP system was created in the first place.....country A and country B (that are non US countries) do not necessarily have the same amount of world USD liquidity exposure/dependence at any given timeframe....in fact it can vary quite tremendously. One can compare say western europe and Russia....compare say the energy per capita consumption and then correlate it to USD nominal...there is a very large discrepancy merely caused by Russia's larger isolation from USD forex liquidity compared to Western Europe.

@Joe Shearer @anant_s @Khan_21 @Chak Bamu @farhan_9909 @LeGenD @VCheng @Major Sam @Game.Invade @Indus Pakistan @nair @MilSpec @lemurian @Oscar @That Guy @Levina

There you go again, confusing chest thumping and organ measuring contests with actual facts that make sense. :D
 
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Although the exchange rate is fluctuating, a currency of healthy economy won't keep depreciating or appreciating for long time. The longer the time, the smaller the impact of exchange rate.

That is something structural related and different to the argument.

I am talking about taking result of say 10% of your (USD base) activity and saying it represents the 100% (CNY production)...you tell me if that is not fraught with big assumptions/flaw compared to PPP which samples all the 100% to make the final result?

Though Taiwan has a higher PPP than Japan, Germany, and Canada, Taiwanese themselves never believe they have better life than most old capitalist countries.

When did what people "believing" they have/dont have a better life enter into the argument? Thats a whole different topic to mere GDP per capita in first place....GDP per capita is somewhat correlated to quality of life, doesn't mean everyone of every single country is going to think or believe that.

That is where wealth distribution, socioeconomic development, perceived happiness etc etc and innumerable other factors enter into it (that vary from person to person, country to country in importance/relevance).

I am simply talking about GDP per capita here (comparing across boundaries, and the bad flaws in using one "world" currency to attempt it...given its simply not an absolute "world" currency)....not perceived quality of life.

They import food from mainland, therefore their food prices are low.

So? Its all about what they consume physically relative to everyone else....it matters how they source it?

They consume few expensive goods.

That goes for every country in the world lol. You tell me what % of consumption in developed world is used for "expensive goods". The vast majority of consumption is regarding 4 things essentially: food, energy, housing, transport. Communications is getting up there, but long way to go still to challenge those 4 dominant ones by raw %. Expensive luxury goods (especially when annualised over life time appropriately) are small % in comparison.

The better way is not using PPP, but to compare the consumption of each commodities.

Oh my goodness. That is EXACTLY what PPP does. :cheesy: It literally aggregates physical quantities of same-quality goods (using an ICP sampling matrix) and brings to a standard reference (as Geralt pointed out, the international dollar).

Please Please read up on this first. Again there is a reason why China expanded the 2011 ICP regimen, did you even read what I posted?

You tell me, if its not a "better way", WHY did CPC allow comprehensive sampling for it compared to 2005? Could simply say its not a better way, no point, you World Bank people will not be allowed because its waste of time, just stick to the cities etc etc.

CPC literally disagrees with you. So go take it up with them lol.


Food prices in poor country are bound to be low, and nationals of this poor country are incapable of consuming expensive goods.

Again if poor countries and rich countries basically have majority consumption in food, energy, housing, transport like I said (just different specific composition)....why is this an issue? You speaking to me as though poor countries with PPP have 50% or something signficant like that in PPP terms of Rich countries....they do not! Even China is around 25% in PPP terms to developed countries. 4 times less.

PPP is an inaccurate index tend to flatter the economies of poor countries, and make the gap between rich countries and poor countries look smaller.

A frankly very silly thing to say...after all I wrote here.

If PPP is an "inaccurate" index, GDP in USD is totally rubbish then....as it extrapolates waaaay worse. (Still you are unable to pose a cogent argument on it).

A country can literally be exporting goods it itself does not internally consume all that much...and you are essentially claiming its fine to take that 10% (or whatever) and say the 100% is the exact same lol.

Bamboo dear, you should be better than this.

Here we go again.


:D

There you go again
 
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(Still you are unable to pose a cogent argument on it).
If you can understand Chinese, maybe I can tell you in detail.

I can't express a lot of information in English.

环球时报:说中国GDP今年超美不靠谱--观点--人民网/ Global Times: It's unreliable to say that China's GDP will surpass American this year. -- People's Daily
http://opinion.people.com.cn/n/2014/0930/c1003-25766141.html
Here's a description about "inaccurate", in Chinese.
 
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If you can understand Chinese, maybe I can tell you in detail.

I can't express a lot of information in English.


Here's a description about "inaccurate", in Chinese.

Yes I never said PPP is perfect. All have faults. Same thing in converting (by just one exchange rate that governs only small part of a country economic activity) all a country's GDP to USD.

It depends the point of view and intent of what you are comparing to choose one. It doesn't make much sense to set international targets in PPP given you cannot project those well (given you cannot own PPP dollars). Its best to target nominal size and then let the PPP flow from that naturally as it does so (i.e play the game well..focused on the tactics and strategies ....rather than be worried about the exact number of chips). Does not mean PPP is invalid or unreliable though, just its suited for the post-game discussion as to the true worth of the economy compared to another.

For local interior purpose, of course both measures (PPP and nominal USD) are bad. Its best for China to of course go by nominal CNY for it. Real of course enters when you factor in inflation.

So the issue/debate starts when we want to compare countries internationally. No measurement is perfect...but for most part PPP does better than USD nominal esp. when it comes to direct physical consumption as the priority (it is literally counting everything, segregated by quality and by physical volume and give final number with reference at 1 USD purchasing power within US).

After all I need not explain to you the problem that would occur if China (or any country that does not use the USD for its economy) wanted to prove its nominal USD size by exchanging every Yuan for the dollar equivalent. Can you tell me if China would be able to get to 10+ trillion USD without collapsing its own economy to do so? This is the problem of using a currency reference not under your control, it makes a too big assumption for argument sake of trade = total economy correlation. It works well between say US, Japan and Europe (given they are integrated immensely and are at similar plateau approaching-LRAS level)...but not for any other country (be they large producer, large consumer, energy producer, LDC, general developing country, smaller developing economy of whatever size....or whatever mix of those they are).
 
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This indicator is not used domestically. News media still focus only on GDP.
Government report never mention PPP.
It is not a valid performance evaluation index for government officials, while GDP actually is significant index for Chinese government and officials.
China's state-owned media even have criticized PPP. They say PPP is not an internationally recognized index.

环球时报:说中国GDP今年超美不靠谱--观点--人民网/ Global Times: It's unreliable to say that China's GDP will surpass American this year. -- People's Daily
http://opinion.people.com.cn/n/2014/0930/c1003-25766141.html
When foreign media say China has overtaken America using PPP, that is the response of China's state-owned media.

That is "not recognize".


Thank you, that's what I mean.:-)
Bro, Indians get orgasmic when you mention pee pee pee. GDP means shit if half a billion are shitting in the open, 300 million are starving, and a crappy infrastructure. Money is just paper, you use it to build wealth like infrastructure, better living condition, education and yes FEEDING YOUR PEOPLE.

Their IT hub is like crap, can't even compare to a tier 4 city in China. I am serious, I've been there, freaking polluted lakes, rubbish strewen everywhere, no treated water supply. Heck my hotel uses ground water. I only drank Dasani over there, skin itches when I bathe. They have like really thick skin immune to the stuff there. You would think their air is good, but wait till you get to Delhi and Mumbai.
 
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India likely to surpass UK in the world's largest economy rankings: PwC

India is likely to surpass the United Kingdom in the world's largest economy rankings in 2019, according to a report by global consultancy firm PwC. As per the report, while the UK and France have regularly switched places owing to similar levels of development and roughly equal populations, India's climb up the rankings is likely to be permanent.

PwC's Global Economy Watch report projects real GDP growth of 1.6 per cent for the UK, 1.7 per cent for France and 7.6 per cent for India in 2019.

"India and France are likely to surpass the UK in the world's largest economy rankings in 2019, knocking it from fifth to seventh place in the global table," the report said.

According to World Bank data, India became the world's sixth largest economy in 2017 surpassing France and was likely to go past the UK which stood at the fifth position.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...economy-rankings-pwc/articleshow/67609647.cms
 
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But there are also many disadvantages about PPP.
Therefore, the Chinese Government does not recognize it.

We also focus on the total GDP of RMB. This is more useful than PPP for us.:-)

I like your discussion around the issues of comparing GDP in USD over time as the exchange rate was under various types of undue “pressure”/liquidity issues and wasn’t necessarily a true reflection of value parity between countries. but just want to point out that the key purpose of having PPP GDP is to standardize the price level (ie purchase power) between countries and to provide an standardized view of “value” being created. PPP GDP still needs to translate from local currency to a thing called “international dollar”, which is defined as the same purchase power of USD in the US and basically USD itself.

I think what CNSpeed was trying to say is the official GDP target is the growth rate based on local currency RMB, constant price. The official source doesn’t refer either GDP in USD current or constant forms, or PPP GDP current or constant form. They are only used by academics or international agencies for comparative study purposes.

The World Bank uses nominal GNI per capita Atlas method to classify countries by income levels, while HDI uses PPP GNI per capita. Both have their merits and demerits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_method

I prefer using nominal because Singapore is a highly globalized country where international purchasing power is very important for us. Foreign imports (food, energy, smartphones etc), international travel, foreigners coming here to work, investments abroad etc.
If the SGD depreciates by 30%, our standard of living will definitely be affected but PPP wouldn't reflect that. Our PPP may even increase due to greater exports implying an improvement of standard of living, which can be misleading.

For countries like India, maybe PPP is more relevant to them because their urbanization rate is only 30%+. They are less plugged into the global economy. Global oil price movements aren't going to affect the standard of living of a rural Indian growing and consuming his own crops.
 
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