Condominium: Possible Solution to the Kashmir Issue

[AmlaHashim]

Just a while ago, I was reading a post by jamahir titled "A political solution for Kashmir and lasting peace for India and Pakistan". He/She insisted upon declaring Line of Control (LOC) as International Border, clearly meaning accepting the status quo and abandoning cause for Kashmir and throwing United Nation's resolutions to dustbin. Frankly speaking, I wouldn't mind throwing up the resolution if three parties agree to some sort of agreement.
I will first discuss some ideas which were already discussed in higher circles at different times.
First of the possible solution is known as Dixon Plan given by Sir Owen Dixon United Nations' Representative for India and Pakistan pursuant to the Security Council's Resolution of March 14, 1950. but I would again disagree with him on certain points. Let's discuss his plan first:
1. Ladakh to India.
2. The Northern Areas (Gilgit Baltistan) and Pakistan-Administrated Kashmir (AJK) to Pakistan.
3. Split Jammu between India and Pakistan.
4. A plebiscite in the Kashmir Valley.
Now, India has divided State of Jammu and Kashmir into two union territories. It wouldn't be acceptable in current position to accept point number 1 i.e awarding Ladakh to India with current map of Ladakh drawn up by India, where even Siachin Glashier and heads of all rivers are falling in Ladakh. China, a Security Council permanent member would also never accede to such a demand.
Point number 4 is also useless now, because India wouldn't allow a plebiscite in Kashmir valley at any cost because of national ego.
Now let's access the UN Security Council's suggestions:
It asked Pakistan and India to evacuate the valley and then UN administrated plebiscite would be held. Nothing about security of UN personnel or territory was given. It is not binding on any of the members. So these resolutions stand no chance.
Now let's assess Musharaf's 4 point formula:
1. Kashmir should have the same borders but free movement across the region be allowed for people on both side of LoC;
2. There should be self-governance or autonomy but not independence
3. Region should be demilitarized i-e phased wised withdrawal of troops from the region.
4. A mechanism should be devised jointly so that the road map for Kashmir is implemented smoothly.
Now there are several flaws in this plan, first of all it is not a plan at all because it doesn't settle the issue which is status of Jammu and Kashmir but accepts division of Kashmir and creates mini corridors like Kartarpur. It doesn't resolve issue of militarisation and human rights and right to self determination. Line of Control would be defacto border and within a few years, the mini corridors would be stopped and it will settle the dust.
Here comes some out of box thinking:
1. Amend Constitution of India & Pakistan and create a Jammu and Kashmir State Coordination Council where half of the members would be representatives from Pakistani Government and half of them would be from Indian Government. This body would oversee elections of the Assembly of the State of Jammu and Kashmir.
2. Gilgit Baltistan, Azad Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh and Union Territory of Jammu and Kashmir would be governed by a Single Cabinet consisting of First Minister and his colleagues of Cabinet. They would be elected by the State Assembly which would be elected by all of the state.
3. Jammu and Kashmir Police under Kashmir State Cabinet would be appointed. It would also function as border police. Jammu and Kashmir Border Police would cover all entry points from India to Kashmir and from Pakistan to Kashmir.
4. After Jammu and Kashmir Border Police has taken charge, India and Pakistan's Army would vacate State of Jammu and Kashmir and there would be a security council binding resolution that no state would attack Jammu and Kashmir and no military aircraft would enter into airspace of Jammu and Kashmir even in the peace times. No fighter aircraft can be stationed in the State and No state in the world could establish an airbase, military base or store nuclear & weapons of mass destruction in the state.
5. No Law of Pakistan and India would be binding or extend to Jammu & Kashmir.
6. Supreme Court of India and Pakistan would have no jurisdiction over Kashmir.
7. Jammu and Kashmir State Coordination Council would issue identity and travel documents and would also help State Government for accreditation of educational degrees, visa and consular services. It would also coordinate State's membership in UN and other international non security organizations i.e World Bank, Interpol, World Trade Organisation, World Customs Organization, ICRC etc.
8. Citizens of Jammu and Kashmir would be dual nationals of India and Pakistan.
9. Jammu and Kashmir would be integral part of both India and Pakistan as a condominium is supposed to be. It would raise no Army or Airforce except Border Police.
10. Currency of both countries would be acceptable and State Government can adopt and create it's own currency if it wishes.
These steps need no years of negotiations but honesty at both sides. It wouldn't hurt ego of any country either. It would be win-win situation for all three parties.

 

[fitpOsitive]

1) India nahi manyga
2) Pakistan nahi manyga
3) Kashmiri nahi manaingy.

 

[arjunk]

Just a while ago, I was reading a post by jamahir titled "A political solution for Kashmir and lasting peace for India and Pakistan". He/She insisted upon declaring Line of Control (LOC) as International Border, clearly meaning accepting the status quo and abandoning cause for Kashmir and throwing United Nation's resolutions to dustbin. Frankly speaking, I wouldn't mind throwing up the resolution if three parties agree to some sort of agreement.
I will first discuss some ideas which were already discussed in higher circles at different times.
First of the possible solution is known as Dixon Plan given by Sir Owen Dixon United Nations' Representative for India and Pakistan pursuant to the Security Council's Resolution of March 14, 1950. but I would again disagree with him on certain points. Let's discuss his plan first:
1. Ladakh to India.
2. The Northern Areas (Gilgit Baltistan) and Pakistan-Administrated Kashmir (AJK) to Pakistan.
3. Split Jammu between India and Pakistan.
4. A plebiscite in the Kashmir Valley.
Now, India has divided State of Jammu and Kashmir into two union territories. It wouldn't be acceptable in current position to accept point number 1 i.e awarding Ladakh to India with current map of Ladakh drawn up by India, where even Siachin Glashier and heads of all rivers are falling in Ladakh. China, a Security Council permanent member would also never accede to such a demand.
Point number 4 is also useless now, because India wouldn't allow a plebiscite in Kashmir valley at any cost because of national ego.
Now let's access the UN Security Council's suggestions:
It asked Pakistan and India to evacuate the valley and then UN administrated plebiscite would be held. Nothing about security of UN personnel or territory was given. It is not binding on any of the members. So these resolutions stand no chance.
Now let's assess Musharaf's 4 point formula:
1. Kashmir should have the same borders but free movement across the region be allowed for people on both side of LoC;
2. There should be self-governance or autonomy but not independence
3. Region should be demilitarized i-e phased wised withdrawal of troops from the region.
4. A mechanism should be devised jointly so that the road map for Kashmir is implemented smoothly.
Now there are several flaws in this plan, first of all it is not a plan at all because it doesn't settle the issue which is status of Jammu and Kashmir but accepts division of Kashmir and creates mini corridors like Kartarpur. It doesn't resolve issue of militarisation and human rights and right to self determination. Line of Control would be defacto border and within a few years, the mini corridors would be stopped and it will settle the dust.
Here comes some out of box thinking:
1. Amend Constitution of India & Pakistan and create a Jammu and Kashmir State Coordination Council where half of the members would be representatives from Pakistani Government and half of them would be from Indian Government. This body would oversee elections of the Assembly of the State of Jammu and Kashmir.
2. Gilgit Baltistan, Azad Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh and Union Territory of Jammu and Kashmir would be governed by a Single Cabinet consisting of First Minister and his colleagues of Cabinet. They would be elected by the State Assembly which would be elected by all of the state.
3. Jammu and Kashmir Police under Kashmir State Cabinet would be appointed. It would also function as border police. Jammu and Kashmir Border Police would cover all entry points from India to Kashmir and from Pakistan to Kashmir.
4. After Jammu and Kashmir Border Police has taken charge, India and Pakistan's Army would vacate State of Jammu and Kashmir and there would be a security council binding resolution that no state would attack Jammu and Kashmir and no military aircraft would enter into airspace of Jammu and Kashmir even in the peace times. No fighter aircraft can be stationed in the State and No state in the world could establish an airbase, military base or store nuclear & weapons of mass destruction in the state.
5. No Law of Pakistan and India would be binding or extend to Jammu & Kashmir.
6. Supreme Court of India and Pakistan would have no jurisdiction over Kashmir.
7. Jammu and Kashmir State Coordination Council would issue identity and travel documents and would also help State Government for accreditation of educational degrees, visa and consular services. It would also coordinate State's membership in UN and other international non security organizations i.e World Bank, Interpol, World Trade Organisation, World Customs Organization, ICRC etc.
8. Citizens of Jammu and Kashmir would be dual nationals of India and Pakistan.
9. Jammu and Kashmir would be integral part of both India and Pakistan as a condominium is supposed to be. It would raise no Army or Airforce except Border Police.
10. Currency of both countries would be acceptable and State Government can adopt and create it's own currency if it wishes.
These steps need no years of negotiations but honesty at both sides. It wouldn't hurt ego of any country either. It would be win-win situation for all three parties.

This is how you allow infiltration of shitloads of spies/militants. And to think India or Pakistan will let each other administer each other's territory is absurd.

 

[AmlaHashim]

1) India nahi manyga
2) Pakistan nahi manyga
3) Kashmiri nahi manaingy.

This would be best way to fix this conflict which will otherwise waste generations and trillions of dollars for each of them. Kashmiris will get United Kashmir again.

 

[DJ_Viper]

Just a while ago, I was reading a post by jamahir titled "A political solution for Kashmir and lasting peace for India and Pakistan". He/She insisted upon declaring Line of Control (LOC) as International Border, clearly meaning accepting the status quo and abandoning cause for Kashmir and throwing United Nation's resolutions to dustbin. Frankly speaking, I wouldn't mind throwing up the resolution if three parties agree to some sort of agreement.

Just curious, did you know that "behind the scenes" this issue has been "settled for good"? And thus, there was a no war pact? The lines as they are are now a de-facto international border. No wars and after a few years of peace, the people of Kashmir will be allowed to come and go with proper documentation (kind of how it's on the Afghan-Pakistan border). Hopefully, a day might come when trade could be initiated through the roads from other areas.

 

[AmlaHashim]

This is how you allow infiltration of shitloads of spies/militants. And to think India or Pakistan will let each other administer each other's territory is absurd.

Trust is key in any conflict resolution specially of such magnitude. Spies/militant are less dangerous than conventional war with several players and risk of nuclear weapons.

 

[Imad.Khan]

How about we ask the people whos fate we are discussing, well atleast first on our side.

 

[AmlaHashim]

I

Just curious, did you know that "behind the scenes" this issue has been "settled for good"? And thus, there was a no war pact? The lines as they are are now a de-facto international border. No wars and after a few years of peace, the people of Kashmir will be allowed to come and go with proper documentation (kind of how it's on the Afghan-Pakistan border). Hopefully, a day might come when trade could be initiated through the roads from other areas.

India wanted a war, that's why it removed Article 370. Ladakh is still administratively part of Jammu and Kashmir and all actions are reversible in future. I don't think it is settled, just sent to cold storage for few years.

 

[jamahir]

He/She insisted

I am a he ( ) and I agree with @fitpOsitive in post# 2.

Even your point about splitting Jammu between India and Pakistan and plebiscite in Kashmir valley won't be accepted by India. Musharraf with his four-point formula had thought of assuaging concerns of all three parties ( India, Pakistan and general Kashmir populace ).

My proposal / solution, as goes by the name, is not merely for Kashmir valley's political change and a bit of social change but for the broader for-semi-permanence political evolution of India and Pakistan, which if you read this another proposal thread of mine can be partnered with an evolved economic system.

 

[fitpOsitive]

This would be best way to fix this conflict which will otherwise waste generations and trillions of dollars for each of them. Kashmiris will get United Kashmir again.

We, the brown people, lack basic IQ and the very basics of human social mechanics. We are already destined to die with each other's hands.
There are millions of good things out there, which if we adopt, the subcontinent can become a powerhouse for the world.
Thousands of people have suggested millions of solutions to the Kashmir issue. The problem is, whether we want to implement them?
No one wants. And no one will let any good solution be implemented.

Its in the mentality.

 

[DJ_Viper]

I
India wanted a war, that's why it removed Article 370. Ladakh is still administratively part of Jammu and Kashmir and all actions are reversible in future. I don't think it is settled, just sent to cold storage for few years.

I don't think you paid attention to my post. Thanks to Mr. Trump, Mr. Khan and Mr. Modi, this issue is a done deal. You'll never hear about Kashmir's independence or any fights over it. Everybody keep the land that they have and try to be happy, while slowly, allowing people to go around and meet families separated across. Issue resolved.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Just a while ago, I was reading a post by jamahir titled "A political solution for Kashmir and lasting peace for India and Pakistan". He/She insisted upon declaring Line of Control (LOC) as International Border, clearly meaning accepting the status quo and abandoning cause for Kashmir and throwing United Nation's resolutions to dustbin. Frankly speaking, I wouldn't mind throwing up the resolution if three parties agree to some sort of agreement.
I will first discuss some ideas which were already discussed in higher circles at different times.
First of the possible solution is known as Dixon Plan given by Sir Owen Dixon United Nations' Representative for India and Pakistan pursuant to the Security Council's Resolution of March 14, 1950. but I would again disagree with him on certain points. Let's discuss his plan first:
1. Ladakh to India.
2. The Northern Areas (Gilgit Baltistan) and Pakistan-Administrated Kashmir (AJK) to Pakistan.
3. Split Jammu between India and Pakistan.
4. A plebiscite in the Kashmir Valley.
Now, India has divided State of Jammu and Kashmir into two union territories. It wouldn't be acceptable in current position to accept point number 1 i.e awarding Ladakh to India with current map of Ladakh drawn up by India, where even Siachin Glashier and heads of all rivers are falling in Ladakh. China, a Security Council permanent member would also never accede to such a demand.
Point number 4 is also useless now, because India wouldn't allow a plebiscite in Kashmir valley at any cost because of national ego.
Now let's access the UN Security Council's suggestions:
It asked Pakistan and India to evacuate the valley and then UN administrated plebiscite would be held. Nothing about security of UN personnel or territory was given. It is not binding on any of the members. So these resolutions stand no chance.
Now let's assess Musharaf's 4 point formula:
1. Kashmir should have the same borders but free movement across the region be allowed for people on both side of LoC;
2. There should be self-governance or autonomy but not independence
3. Region should be demilitarized i-e phased wised withdrawal of troops from the region.
4. A mechanism should be devised jointly so that the road map for Kashmir is implemented smoothly.
Now there are several flaws in this plan, first of all it is not a plan at all because it doesn't settle the issue which is status of Jammu and Kashmir but accepts division of Kashmir and creates mini corridors like Kartarpur. It doesn't resolve issue of militarisation and human rights and right to self determination. Line of Control would be defacto border and within a few years, the mini corridors would be stopped and it will settle the dust.
Here comes some out of box thinking:
1. Amend Constitution of India & Pakistan and create a Jammu and Kashmir State Coordination Council where half of the members would be representatives from Pakistani Government and half of them would be from Indian Government. This body would oversee elections of the Assembly of the State of Jammu and Kashmir.
2. Gilgit Baltistan, Azad Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh and Union Territory of Jammu and Kashmir would be governed by a Single Cabinet consisting of First Minister and his colleagues of Cabinet. They would be elected by the State Assembly which would be elected by all of the state.
3. Jammu and Kashmir Police under Kashmir State Cabinet would be appointed. It would also function as border police. Jammu and Kashmir Border Police would cover all entry points from India to Kashmir and from Pakistan to Kashmir.
4. After Jammu and Kashmir Border Police has taken charge, India and Pakistan's Army would vacate State of Jammu and Kashmir and there would be a security council binding resolution that no state would attack Jammu and Kashmir and no military aircraft would enter into airspace of Jammu and Kashmir even in the peace times. No fighter aircraft can be stationed in the State and No state in the world could establish an airbase, military base or store nuclear & weapons of mass destruction in the state.
5. No Law of Pakistan and India would be binding or extend to Jammu & Kashmir.
6. Supreme Court of India and Pakistan would have no jurisdiction over Kashmir.
7. Jammu and Kashmir State Coordination Council would issue identity and travel documents and would also help State Government for accreditation of educational degrees, visa and consular services. It would also coordinate State's membership in UN and other international non security organizations i.e World Bank, Interpol, World Trade Organisation, World Customs Organization, ICRC etc.
8. Citizens of Jammu and Kashmir would be dual nationals of India and Pakistan.
9. Jammu and Kashmir would be integral part of both India and Pakistan as a condominium is supposed to be. It would raise no Army or Airforce except Border Police.
10. Currency of both countries would be acceptable and State Government can adopt and create it's own currency if it wishes.
These steps need no years of negotiations but honesty at both sides. It wouldn't hurt ego of any country either. It would be win-win situation for all three parties.

Why would India need to accept this formula?

Any solution works only - give and take..... but here, what Pakistan is giving to India? only asking to get it.... it does not work, do not expect that India or Indian will accept this formula ever.

 

[AmlaHashim]

Why would India need to accept this formula?

Any solution works only - give and take..... but here, what Pakistan is giving to India? only asking to get it.... it does not work, do not expect that India or Indian will accept this formula ever.

Ego boost and face saving. Not to worry about further war or manipulations from Western border and better relationship with a hostile country and chances of economic cooperation. Pakistan would also reciprocate all actions done by India at their end. I don't think it is only giving at Indian end. It is a better solution unless we want to invest & further insist on becoming clients for Lockheed, Boeing and Dassault in decades to come.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Ego boost and face saving. Not to worry about further war or manipulations from Western border and better relationship with a hostile country and chances of economic cooperation. Pakistan would also reciprocate all actions done by India at their end. I don't think it is only giving at Indian end. It is a better solution unless we want to invest & further insist on becoming clients for Lockheed, Boeing and Dassault in decades to come.

NO, thanks...... we don't want any such good relationship if we need to compromise on our belonging parts.

India will not give a single inch to Pakistan for sure... rest any better options then only talk can succeed.

Otherwise, go for war and try to take it from India.

Pakistan does not have a chance to win against India - So, what next, better should compromise by both the sides and make LOC as a permanent border with many exclusions and possible support i .e free border movement within both sides of Jammu and Kashmir including GB.... free trade and business, etc........ Even many Indians will not agree with my point because they also claim Pakistani J & K parts as same as you claim Indian J & K parts..

One side expectations will never get succeed, there is a caused of failures of the talks between India and Pakistan in the past.

It is a better solution unless we want to invest & further insist on becoming clients for Lockheed, Boeing and Dassault in decades to come.

Pakistan is also a client of CHina or Turkey ....So?

 

[Paro_Peagus]

If Pakistan had the might to take Kashmir from india it would have taken it the day a370 was abolished. It has tried and failed multiple times over history.

About trusting each other recall how kargil happened in the first place. You expect India to trust a politically unstable military ruled Pakistan. Whom are you selling this to.

Third Pakistan is doing its best since 2 years to make loc the new IB for two reasons. The gap btw india and Pakistan is risen far enough that any new adventure will result in pakistan losing. And the gap will only increase ( look at each others economies), this is also the reason India started claiming p 0 k as its territory openly. second reason is the spill over from western borders.