Comparing Median Income & Wealth Data For India & Pakistan

[RiazHaq]

A 2011 World Bank report titled "Perspectives on poverty in India : stylized facts from survey data"
discusses various causes of high poverty and higher inequality in India, particularly discrimination against certain castes and tribes who make up most of the poor. It describes exclusion based on caste (SC or scheduled caste) and tribes (ST or scheduled tribes) and describes it as follows:

The Hindu hierarchy is said to have evolved from different parts of the body of Brahma—the creator of the universe. Thus, the Brahmans, who originated from the mouth, undertake the most prestigious priestly and teaching occupations. The Kshatriyas (from the arms) are the rulers and warriors; the Vaishyas (from the thighs) are traders and merchants. The Shudras, from the feet, are manual workers and servants of other castes. Below the Shudras and outside the caste system, lowest in the order, the untouchables engage in the most demeaning and stigmatized occupations (scavenging, for instance, and dealing with bodily waste).

Similarly, the scheduled tribes are also referred to as the Adivasis. .... we use the terms SC and ST, as these are standard administrative and survey categories. In the text we use the terms Dalits and Adivasis or tribals interchangeably with SCs and STs, respectively.

http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/103691468041447795/Main-report

 

[RiazHaq]

Credit Suisse Global Wealth Report 2016 puts the wealth of India's top 1% at 58.4%, pretty close to what Oxfam does.
The share of the top 1% is up from 53% last year. In the last two years, the share of the top 1% has increased at a cracking pace, from 49% in 2014 (when Modi became PM) to 58.4% in 2016.

http://www.livemint.com/Money/MML9O...chest-1-of-Indians-now-own-584-of-wealth.html

 

[Razia Sultana]

A 2011 World Bank report titled "Perspectives on poverty in India : stylized facts from survey data"
discusses various causes of high poverty and higher inequality in India, particularly discrimination against certain castes and tribes who make up most of the poor. It describes exclusion based on caste (SC or scheduled caste) and tribes (ST or scheduled tribes) and describes it as follows:

The Hindu hierarchy is said to have evolved from different parts of the body of Brahma—the creator of the universe. Thus, the Brahmans, who originated from the mouth, undertake the most prestigious priestly and teaching occupations. The Kshatriyas (from the arms) are the rulers and warriors; the Vaishyas (from the thighs) are traders and merchants. The Shudras, from the feet, are manual workers and servants of other castes. Below the Shudras and outside the caste system, lowest in the order, the untouchables engage in the most demeaning and stigmatized occupations (scavenging, for instance, and dealing with bodily waste).

Similarly, the scheduled tribes are also referred to as the Adivasis. .... we use the terms SC and ST, as these are standard administrative and survey categories. In the text we use the terms Dalits and Adivasis or tribals interchangeably with SCs and STs, respectively.

http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/103691468041447795/Main-report

For the first time I wholly agree with what you have written above. The SC/ST in India were historically descriminated against to the extent that will shame the humanity. It went on and on for thousands of years and no ruler bothered to pay any attention to their plight. It is understandable that it was a hindu system and hence hindu rulers ignored the plight but I am appalled at the fact that even muslim rulers of India did nothing to address this humanitarian issue. It was only the western education during the colonial rule that some rulers and social reformers tried their bit against this social malaise.

Now what a civilized nation can do about it, the Govt. of India is doing and not just a social welfare program but an empowered constitutional means. The untouchability has been abolished and made a crime. Reservation is given to SC/ST in parliament, all other political bodies, government jobs and educational institutions. The non-untouchable shudras are also given reservations in govt. jobs and they are referred as OBC. If you compare the life of an SC/ST before and after 1947, you will be able to notice the sea change but yes, they are not on par with the rest. India as a nation has accepted this change but one off incidents of discrimination are still reported but such exceptions are common to all nations like racial, religious discrimination in even most civilized nations.

 

[Nilgiri]

According to Oxfam, 7.5% of the worlds poorest people live in the US! I call BS!

http://fusion.net/story/39185/oxfams-misleading-wealth-statistics/

This is again the way they computer net wealth. Basically they subtract debt evenly/haphazardly from gross wealth to get net wealth figure spectrum.

A lot of students and such (people with high debt) end up becoming very poor by this measure even though they are physically consuming scores more than other countries every day.

Sustainability of underlying seigniorage of a currency (and thus credit/debt participation and leveraging) is a tricky affair to amortise in such studies.

 

[RiazHaq]

This is again the way they computer net wealth. Basically they subtract debt evenly/haphazardly from gross wealth to get net wealth figure spectrum.

A lot of students and such (people with high debt) end up becoming very poor by this measure even though they are physically consuming scores more than other countries every day.

Sustainability of underlying seigniorage of a currency (and thus credit/debt participation and leveraging) is a tricky affair to amortise in such studies.

Credit Suisse Global Wealth Report 2016 puts the wealth of India's top 1% at 58.4%, pretty close to what Oxfam does.

The share of the top 1% is up from 53% last year. In the last two years, the share of the top 1% has increased at a cracking pace, from 49% in 2014 (when Modi became PM) to 58.4% in 2016.

http://www.livemint.com/Money/MML9O...chest-1-of-Indians-now-own-584-of-wealth.html

 

[Nilgiri]

Credit Suisse Global Wealth Report 2016 puts the wealth of India's top 1% at 58.4%, pretty close to what Oxfam does.

The share of the top 1% is up from 53% last year. In the last two years, the share of the top 1% has increased at a cracking pace, from 49% in 2014 (when Modi became PM) to 58.4% in 2016.

http://www.livemint.com/Money/MML9O...chest-1-of-Indians-now-own-584-of-wealth.html

Yup keep quoting numbers while avoiding the meat of the discussion.

Funny coming from the person who loudly proclaimed my issue lay with not understanding the difference between mean and median

Answer this point by point if you want me to take you seriously anymore:

https://defence.pk/threads/comparin...-data-for-india-pakistan.473233/#post-9120863

 

[RiazHaq]

#India has been a post-truth society for years. #Modi #Trump #alternativefacts http://theconversation.com/india-ha...ty-for-years-and-maybe-the-west-has-too-71169 … via @_TCGlobal

India: home of post-truth politics

That was the global context of post-truth politics and its advent in the West. But as the US and UK wake up to this new era, it’s worth noting that the world’s largest democracy has been living in a post-truth world for years.

From education to health care and the economy, particularly its slavish obsession with GDP, India can be considered a world leader in post-truth politics.

India’s post-truth era cannot be traced to a single year – its complexities go back generations. But the election of Narendra Modi in 2014 can be marked as a significant inflection point. Ever since, the country has existed under majoritarian rule with widely reported discrimination against minorities.

India’s version of post-truth is different to its Western counterparts due to the country’s socioeconomic status; its per capita nominal income is less than 3% of that of the US (or 4% of that of the UK). Still, post-truth is everywhere in India.

It can be seen in our booming Wall Street but failing main streets, our teacher-less schools and our infrastructure-less villages. We have the ability to influence the world without enjoying good governance or a basic living conditions for so many at home.

Modi’s government has shown how key decisions can be completely divorced from the everyday lives of Indian citizens, but spun to seem like they have been made for their benefit. Nowhere is this more evident than with India’s latest demonetisation drive, which plunged the country into crisis, against the advice of its central bank, and hit poorest people the hardest.


Despite the levels of extreme poverty in India, when it comes to social development, the cult of growth dominates over the development agenda, a trend that Modi has exacerbated, but that started with past governments.

The dichotomy of India’s current post-truth experience was nicely summed up by Arun Shourie, an influential former minister from Modi’s own party. He disagrees with the prime minister, just as many Republicans share sharp differences of opinion with President Trump.

Shourie said the policies of the current administration were equal to his predecessors’ policies, plus a cow.

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...there is an argument to be made that the US and the UK have been living in denial of facts and evidence for years. In 2003, after all, both the countries went to war in Iraq over the false notion that Saddam Hussein was harbouring weapons of mass destruction.
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Major social change does not happen within the space of a year. Yet, to a large number of observers around the world, the “post-truth” phenomenon seemed to emerge from nowhere in 2016.

Two key events of 2016 shaped our understanding of the post-truth world: one was in June, when Britain voted in favour of leaving the European Union. The other was in November, when political maverick Donald Trump was elected the 45th President of the United States of America. Trump’s administration spent the third day of his presidency speaking of “alternative facts”, and making false claims about the size of the crowds that had attended his inauguration.

For the rest of the world, the importance of both Trump and Brexit can best be gauged by understanding that they happened in the USA and in the UK. The UK was the key driving force of the world from the 19th century until the second world war, the US has been ever since. The US and the UK often have shared a similar point of view on many global geopolitical developments, as strategic allies or by virtue of their “special relationship”.

 

[RiazHaq]

#Pakistan’s Middle Class Soars as Stability Returns - WSJ. #economy #middleclass
https://www.wsj.com/articles/pakistans-middle-class-soars-as-stability-returns-1485945001

Pakistan, often in the headlines for terrorism, coups and poverty, has developed something else in recent years: a burgeoning middle class that is fueling economic growth and bolstering a fragile democracy.

The transformation is evident in Jamil Abbas, a tailor of women’s clothing whose 15 years of work has paid off with two children in private school and small luxuries like a refrigerator and a washing machine.

For companies like the Swiss food maker Nestlé SA, such hungry consumers signal a sea-change.

“Pakistan is entering the hot zone,” said Bruno Olierhoek, Nestlé’s CEO for Pakistan, saying the country appears to be at a tipping point of exploding demand. Nestlé’s sales in Pakistan have doubled in the past five years to $1 billion.

Although often overshadowed by giant neighbors India and China, Pakistan is the sixth most-populated country, with 200 million people. And now, major progress in the country’s security, economic and political environments have helped create the stability for a thriving middle class.

An unpublished study last year that measured living standards, from Pakistani market research firm Aftab Associates, found that 38% of the country is middle class, while a further 4% is upper class. That’s a combined 84 million people—roughly equivalent to the entire populations of Germany or Turkey.

Such households are likely to have a motorcycle, color TV, refrigerator, washing machine and at least one member who has completed school up to the age of 16, the study found. Official figures show that the proportion of households that own a motorcycle soared to 34% in 2014 from 4% in 1991, and a washing machine to 47% from 13% over that same period. These trends are also attracting international business.

In December, Royal FrieslandCampina NV, a Dutch dairy company, paid $461 million to buy control of Engro Foods, a Pakistani packaged milk producer in a country where most milk is sold unpasteurized from open milk containers.

“What we see is consumer spending is rising and a middle class coming up,” said Hans Laarakker, Engro’s new chief executive.

Late last year, China’s Shanghai Electric Power agreed to pay $1.8 billion for a majority of Karachi’s electric supply company; Turkish electrical appliance maker Arçelik paid $258 million for a Pakistani appliance maker, Dawlance, saying Pakistan has an “increasingly prosperous working and middle class”; and French car maker Renault SA said it was seeking to set up a plant in Pakistan.

Meanwhile, during the past three years, deaths from terrorist attacks have fallen by two-thirds, as the army battles jihadists. Economic growth reached an eight-year high of nearly 5% in the past financial year, and China has begun a multibillion-dollar infrastructure investment program. The Karachi stock market rose 46% last year and continues to soar.

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In the developing world, the ability to purchase durable goods such as motorcycles—which itself can lead to new opportunities in employment, education and leisure—is generally viewed as an indicator of a middle class lifestyle. Motorcycle purchases soared in Pakistan to 2 million a year now from 95,000 in 2000, leading Honda Motor Co. to double its production capacity there. Buyers of Honda’s cheapest motorcycle typically earn between just $200 and $300 a month, which would put them well below the poverty line in the West, but here that gives them disposable income.

“All these big companies globally, if they’re not looking at Pakistan, need to look at Pakistan, because it’s a huge consumption economy emerging,” said Saquib Shirazi, chief executive of Honda’s Pakistan joint venture.

 

[RiazHaq]

 

[Nilgiri]

Unless someone wants to accept that the "median" "wealth" per capita in resource rich Kazakhstan is 890 dollars...less than one quarter that of India (from the same credit suisse report)

Still no answer....and never will there be one I suspect

 

[RiazHaq]

Still no answer....and never will there be one I suspect

What I have shared here from Bloomberg is average, not median.

But to answer your question, you have to first understand the concept of median income and median wealth. Median represents the 50% point. Average can be skewed by the high number of billionaires at the top. But median is not affected by it. India has huge inequalities with the top 1% owning 58% of the nation's wealth. But India has also has the world's largest population of poor. So it's median is much worse than Pakistan's.

 

[Nilgiri]

What I have shared here from Bloomberg is average, not median.

But to answer your question, you have to first understand the concept of median income and median wealth. Median represents the 50% point. Average can be skewed by the high number of billionaires at the top. But median is not affected by it. India has huge inequalities with the top 1% owning 58% of the nation's wealth. But India has also has the world's largest population of poor. So it's median is much worse than Pakistan's.

http://publications.credit-suisse.c...fm?fileid=AD6F2B43-B17B-345E-E20A1A254A3E24A5

Just a few examples:

Kazakhstan (2016):

GDP per adult: 25,000 USD (8 times India)

Wealth per adult: 4134 USD (roughly same as the claimed amount for India)

Ukraine (2016):

GDP per adult: 6800 USD (about 2 times India)

Wealth per adult: 1254 USD ( about 1/3rd of India)

Belarus (2016):

GDP per adult: 9750 USD ( about 3 times India)

Wealth per adult: 1259 USD (about 1/3rd of India)

Iran (2016):

GDP per adult: 10,700 USD (about 3.5 times India)

Wealth per adult: 3955 USD (about same as India)

You seriously expect people to not ask question about the methodology/source data? @SOHEIL @Arminkh @haman10 @AmirPatriot

It doesn't help that the reference source for India's statistics are from 2002 (page 13)...nearly 14 years out of date now. There are no reference sources to begin with for the bulk majority of countries estimates either...hence there are wild speculations about wealth measurements (acknowledged even by Credit suisse themselves if you bother to read the full report instead of cherry picking a few numbers). Median versus mean argument does not even have the room to come into play when this is happening.

Is anyone going to believe that Iran with 3 - 4 times GDP per capita consistently compared to India and Pakistan is going to have the same or less wealth per person as them? Then cherry picking two countries (with huge unreported informal economies) for cross country comparison from a study that asserts that? Laughable.

If you want to cherry pick numbers, try it with infant mortality (15 years plus behind India) and demographics (about the same lag) for Pakistan first to achieve some credibility.

 

[RiazHaq]

http://publications.credit-suisse.c...fm?fileid=AD6F2B43-B17B-345E-E20A1A254A3E24A5

Just a few examples:

Kazakhstan (2016):

GDP per adult: 25,000 USD (8 times India)

Wealth per adult: 4134 USD (roughly same as the claimed amount for India)

Ukraine (2016):

GDP per adult: 6800 USD (about 2 times India)

Wealth per adult: 1254 USD ( about 1/3rd of India)

Belarus (2016):

GDP per adult: 9750 USD ( about 3 times India)

Wealth per adult: 1259 USD (about 1/3rd of India)

Iran (2016):

GDP per adult: 10,700 USD (about 3.5 times India)

Wealth per adult: 3955 USD (about same as India)

You seriously expect people to not ask question about the methodology/source data? @SOHEIL @Arminkh @haman10 @AmirPatriot

It doesn't help that the reference source for India's statistics are from 2002 (page 13)...nearly 14 years out of date now. There are no reference sources to begin with for the bulk majority of countries estimates either...hence there are wild speculations about wealth measurements (acknowledged even by Credit suisse themselves if you bother to read the full report instead of cherry picking a few numbers). Median versus mean argument does not even have the room to come into play when this is happening.

Is anyone going to believe that Iran with 3 - 4 times GDP per capita consistently compared to India and Pakistan is going to have the same or less wealth per person as them? Then cherry picking two countries (with huge unreported informal economies) for cross country comparison from a study that asserts that? Laughable.

If you want to cherry pick numbers, try it with infant mortality (15 years plus behind India) and demographics (about the same lag) for Pakistan first to achieve some credibility.

Wealth is what you are able save/invest/accumulate after taking care of expenses.

It's hard to accumulate wealth if you end up spending most of what you earn because of higher cost of living.

Example: Luanda Angola has very high cost of living because they end up importing most of what they need. So the people are not able to accumulate wealth.

http://www.cnbc.com/2014/07/09/worlds-most-expensive-city-is-also-among-poorest.html

 

[Nilgiri]

Wealth is what you are able save/invest/accumulate after taking care of expenses.

It's hard to accumulate wealth if you end up spending most of what you earn because of higher cost of living.

Example: Luanda Angola has very high cost of living because they end up importing most of what they need. So the people are not able to accumulate wealth.

http://www.cnbc.com/2014/07/09/worlds-most-expensive-city-is-also-among-poorest.html

Wrong. Wealth isn't just what you save, its the worth of the assets you own as well.

Transient living consumption which does not accumulate is nowhere near to explaining the huge discrepancies in the wealth per adult of these countries I have mentioned. Its why I tagged the Iranian members, they can give you a better idea if they feel these numbers are correct for their country "on the ground" relative to yearly income. If they don't , it basically proves that Credit Suisse numbers between countries ought to be taken with a big amount of salt overall.

These are all simple means as well, so no issue of skewing with median comes into the argument.

Besides, the better evidence for India and Pakistan regarding cost of living is the PPP multiplier which is roughly the same but higher for India currently (which approx means slightly lower overall cost of living in India compared to Pakistan with global reference of USD). India multiplie is 3.8 in 2015 and Pakistan is 3.5 the same year. You can check in the IMF database.

So please read up on the report fully where the methodology, errors and accounting problems (which explain such discrepancies) are mentioned by Credit Suisse....and why these estimates are nowhere near the gold standard for cross country comparison of income and wealth profiles (esp for developing countries with large informal economies and/or those with large natural resource extraction and/or secluded banking participation/prevalence and/or myriad of other reasons). Don't make me have to dig it all out for you please.

 

[RiazHaq]

Wrong. Wealth isn't just what you save, its the worth of the assets you own as well.

Transient living consumption which does not accumulate is nowhere near to explaining the huge discrepancies in the wealth per adult of these countries I have mentioned. Its why I tagged the Iranian members, they can give you a better idea if they feel these numbers are correct for their country "on the ground" relative to yearly income. If they don't , it basically proves that Credit Suisse numbers between countries ought to be taken with a big amount of salt overall.

These are all simple means as well, so no issue of skewing with median comes into the argument.

Besides, the better evidence for India and Pakistan regarding cost of living is the PPP multiplier which is roughly the same but higher for India currently (which approx means slightly lower overall cost of living in India compared to Pakistan with global reference of USD). India multiplie is 3.8 in 2015 and Pakistan is 3.5 the same year. You can check in the IMF database.

So please read up on the report fully where the methodology, errors and accounting problems (which explain such discrepancies) are mentioned by Credit Suisse....and why these estimates are nowhere near the gold standard for cross country comparison of income and wealth profiles (esp for developing countries with large informal economies and/or those with large natural resource extraction and/or secluded banking participation/prevalence and/or myriad of other reasons). Don't make me have to dig it all out for you please.

I think your problem is really not the methodology but the outcome.

I have nothing more to say to you on this subject.