What's new

COMMENT: The ‘warm call’

Not quite as simple as that Sir: Neither.

Secular or religious are concepts that have no place in the fighting ideology of any armed forces. There is only one role that must be paramount: defending the country. Using a religious crutch to justify the ideological existence of the state is not for the armed forces to decide or propagate, for it is easy to get signals mixed up.

Depends on the transmitter.. and receiver wont you say??
As long as the transmission is thought up carefully.. it may not get mixed up.

While he had nothing to do with the speech.. nor was his heart sincere about it.
Ayub's speech in the 65 conflict has a large part to play in moving the masses.
Every account of 65, by military or civilian sources.. pro-armed forces or anti-armed forces..
Speaks of this religious invocation having an effect.

Even those in then east Pakistan were affected by this fervor.
Was Noor Jehan's voice not carrying Islamic ideals when she crooned "rah-e-haq ke shaheedon"??
What would you have the army use as an alternative morale booster?? Meera??, Basant? WAPDA??

Unless the man on the front knows that he is fighting for something close to his heart.. he will not fight as effectively. What other alternative as an ideology can you give the trooper at the front??
 
.
........................
Unless the man on the front knows that he is fighting for something close to his heart.. he will not fight as effectively. What other alternative as an ideology can you give the trooper at the front??

How about the love of his homeland and the burning desire to protect it's citizens at all costs?

"Yeh watan tumhaara he,
Tum ho paasban iskay"


Why is that not enough?
 
.
Unless the man on the front knows that he is fighting for something close to his heart.. he will not fight as effectively. What other alternative as an ideology can you give the trooper at the front??

And Pakistan, his home and family that are his nation, just won't suffice?? What does that say about the idea of Pakistan?

In yesterday's DAWN, I think, there was a piece in the Op/Ed section which highlight that contrary to ideas that poverty creates religious extremists, studies have found that the continuous barrage of "Islam in danger" and "foreigners occupy Muslim Afghanistan" were the two ideas that motivated people to turn to the Talib. Ther is no point denying that we can turn people inside out by playing on their religious sentiments, but do we need such double edged swords over our heads??

All the ideology needed is Pakistan, Pakistanis and their property. See, if the state and nation is not enough, then why are we opposing Hibz ut Tahrir and why are we opposing Al Qaida and why are we opposing the Talib??
 
.
How about the love of his homeland and the burning desire to protect it's citizens at all costs?

"Yeh watan tumhaara he,
Tum ho paasban iskay"


Why is that not enough?

Because the watan broke in two in 71.. has two insurgencies to deal with..clearly the watan is not enough.

And Pakistan, his home and family that are his nation, just won't suffice?? What does that say about the idea of Pakistan?

In yesterday's DAWN, I think, there was a piece in the Op/Ed section which highlight that contrary to ideas that poverty creates religious extremists, studies have found that the continuous barrage of "Islam in danger" and "foreigners occupy Muslim Afghanistan" were the two ideas that motivated people to turn to the Talib. Ther is no point denying that we can turn people inside out by playing on their religious sentiments, but do we need such double edged swords over our heads??

All the ideology needed is Pakistan, Pakistanis and their property. See, if the state and nation is not enough, then why are we opposing Hibz ut Tahrir and why are we opposing Al Qaida and why are we opposing the Talib??

And what is Pakistan about??
What does it offer aside from being an Islamic republic??
If you take the Islamic out.. what is there? Loadshedding? Inflation? Terrorism?
Is the Islamic part the problem? Then take it out.
 
.
Because the watan broke in two in 71.. has two insurgencies to deal with..clearly the watan is not enough.

..................

Firstly, the cause of the breakup was not any lack of ideological zeal in the military, and secondly, islamizing the military, and indeed the whole country (or at least the western surviving piece of it) is not a solution, but a further danger, as indicated by recent events.
 
.
If you take the Islamic out.. what is there? Loadshedding? Inflation? Terrorism?
Is the Islamic part the problem? Then take it out.



Are the insurgencies and insurgents we are fighting, fighting to stop load shedding ?? Are they fighting because high inflation?? And the terrorists, are they not fighting for their version of Islam??

So has the Islamism line served to unite us or divide us??
 
.
....................
And what is Pakistan about??
What does it offer aside from being an Islamic republic??
If you take the Islamic out.. what is there? Loadshedding? Inflation? Terrorism?
Is the Islamic part the problem? Then take it out.

Please clarify this for me before I respond: Are you saying that the hope offered by Islam is the only thing left in Pakistan, such is the deterioration of the quality of life there?
 
.
Are the insurgencies and insurgents we are fighting, fighting to stop load shedding ?? Are they fighting because high inflation?? And the terrorists, are they not fighting for their version of Islam??

So has the Islamism line served to unite us or divide us??

What you call Islamism today has very little of Islam in it. hence it would divide without reason. Leaving an idea to the abstract leaves it to interpretation.
Since there was no one to put their foot down on where the buck stops in interpretation of Islam and who is to be considered authentic. There is no more Islamism either..
By letting the spiritual condition of Muslims in Pakistan slide to its bottom.. on both extremes, you are leaving nothing more than a lost nation.
its already lost on the ideological front, now we wish to give up on the spiritual front as well??

Please clarify this for me before I respond: Are you saying that the hope offered by Islam is the only thing left in Pakistan, such is the deterioration of the quality of life there?

What I am saying is, that any solution.. any HOPE given to Pakistani Muslims who make the deciding majority.. must take the value of Islam in their lives into consideration. A solution bereft of Islam , whether it is based on communism, capitalism.. or socialism wont work. A secular approach that may have worked pre-zia will fail miserably in this Pakistan.
 
.
.................
What I am saying is, that any solution.. any HOPE given to Pakistani Muslims who make the deciding majority.. must take the value of Islam in their lives into consideration. A solution bereft of Islam , whether it is based on communism, capitalism.. or socialism wont work. A secular approach that may have worked pre-zia will fail miserably in this Pakistan.

Thank you, and all I will say is that I agree with you, but this also represents yet another reason for the position that I take regarding my statements about the eventual outcome, which upsets people.

Any solution that includes Islam, in the present setup, is ripe for hijack by strongly vested and supported interests. and any solution that is bereft of Islam will fail miserably.

That Sir, is a true example of between a rock and a hard place.
 
.
Thank you, and all I will say is that I agree with you, but this also represents yet another reason for the position that I take regarding my statements about the eventual outcome, which upsets people.

Any solution that includes Islam, in the present setup, is ripe for hijack by strongly vested and supported interests. and any solution that is bereft of Islam will fail miserably.

That Sir, is a true example of between a rock and a hard place.

Which is where sir.. I propose that those that look at such solution.. try to plan ahead, do their homework on the essence of Islam.. and go locked and loaded so to speak on these hijackers.
 
.
Which is where sir.. I propose that those that look at such solution.. try to plan ahead, do their homework on the essence of Islam.. and go locked and loaded so to speak on these hijackers.


Do you still have grounds to believe that one could talk and reason with these hijackers of Islam? Or you mean "locked at loaded" literally about weapons?
 
.
Do you still have grounds to believe that one could talk and reason with these hijackers of Islam? Or you mean "locked at loaded" literally about weapons?

Both.. depending on what "level" of hijacker we are dealing with.
 
.
Both.. depending on what "level" of hijacker we are dealing with.

How would you classify the hijackers of Islam that are causing all these issue in Pakistan, and your proposed level of dealing with each class?
 
.
propose that those that look at such solution.. try to plan ahead, do their homework on the essence of Islam.. and go locked and loaded so to speak on these hijackers.

Auwaal aur Akhir - the solution to all problems is, even more Islamism, some seem to suggest - Essence of Islam? But Sir, there in Pakistan there are multiple "Essences" of Islam, which particular "essence" are you persuaded by?

We must not be fanatics - and were we fanatics before Zia? Were our Fathers and Mothers other than Muslim before Zia??

So what then is the credibility of arguments that to kill off the Islamist insurgent, we have to Islam the Islamists - May God save Pakistan, but then again, God helps those who help themselves.

In the end, we may end up with government telling us what Islam is and is not - now how is that different from what Zia imposed on us in the first place??

Drowning swimmers are not advised to keep sinking deeper, rather they are advised to get their heads out of water and then their body. This is not a hateful advice but is compassionate advice.
 
.
How would you classify the hijackers of Islam that are causing all these issue in Pakistan, and your proposed level of dealing with each class?

Those that can be reasoned with.. using knowledge of Islam itself.. those that cannot. .. I leave to your imagination.

Auwaal aur Akhir - the solution to all problems is, even more Islamism, some seem to suggest - Essence of Islam? But Sir, there in Pakistan there are multiple "Essences" of Islam, which particular "essence" are you persuaded by?

We must not be fanatics - and were we fanatics before Zia? Were our Fathers and Mothers other than Muslim before Zia??

So what then is the credibility of arguments that to kill off the Islamist insurgent, we have to Islam the Islamists - May God save Pakistan, but then again, God helps those who help themselves.

In the end, we may end up with government telling us what Islam is and is not - now how is that different from what Zia imposed on us in the first place??

Drowning swimmers are not advised to keep sinking deeper, rather they are advised to get their heads out of water and then their body. This is not a hateful advice but is compassionate advice.

Ah.. but why cant one catch those swimmers.. hold them there, show them how to wade... and let them move on.
There are those who may still sink.. but there are also many who will swim better.

The idea is not to impose anything, the idea is to encourage them to explore by themselves.. and wean out those essences which have a track record of creating problems.
Somehow where there is a need for freedom of religion, we would rather let the ideologies that fuel the extremists live.. rather than wipe them out.
I believe that is an incorrect approach, weapons.. imprisonment may not be the only means of filtering out the extremist idea.
Interestingly, those who are directly responsible for introducing such ideologies have also found a workable solution.

"The counseling program to reeducate and rehabilitate terrorist sympathizers is part of a self-described "war of ideas" against extremism in the kingdom. This quiet struggle has been ongoing for some time, and the program represents a very unique Saudi solution to a Saudi problem. It incorporates many traditional Saudi methods of conflict resolution and conflict management. The fact that the program was started in secret, and not in response to outside pressures, is telling; its origins arose out of recognition in the kingdom that something had to be done to address extremist sympathies and is a tacit acknowledgment of the threat that the "war of ideas" posed.

When members of the Advisory Committee initially sit with a prisoner, one of the first things that they stress is that they are not employees of the Ministry of Interior or associated with the security forces [2]. Rather, they explain that they are independent and righteous scholars. Before the government adopted this technique, it was not uncommon for families to ask clerics and scholars to visit their family members in jail and talk with them about their behavior.

In their first meeting, committee members will simply listen to the prisoner. They ask them about what they did, why they did it and the circumstances that brought them to be in prison. Throughout the process, the scholars engage prisoners in discussions about their beliefs, and then attempt to persuade them that their religious justification for their actions is wrong and based upon a corrupted understanding of Islam. The committee first demonstrates that what the prisoners were tricked into believing was false, and then they teach them the proper state-approved interpretation of Islam.

The Advisory Committee runs two programs. The first includes short sessions, which typically run about two hours. While some prisoners recant their beliefs after the first session, typically a prisoner goes through several of these meetings. The others are called "Long Study Sessions." These are six-week courses for up to 20 students led by two clerics and a social scientist. Ten subjects are covered over the six weeks, including instruction in such topics as takfir, walaah (loyalty) and bayat (allegiance), terrorism, jihad and psychological courses on self-esteem. At the end of the course, an exam is given; those who pass the exam move to the next stage of the process, while those who do not pass repeat the course.

The Counseling Program is based upon a presumption of benevolence, and not vengeance or retribution. It presumes that the suspects were abused, lied to and misled by extremists into straying away from "true Islam," and that the state wants to help security prisoners return to the correct path. The vast majority of prisoners who have participated in the program, according to research conducted by the Advisory Committee, have been found to not have had a religious education during their childhood [3]. Most of the prisoners have been found by the committee to have an incomplete understanding of Islam, and the majority have been radicalized through extremist books, tapes, videos and, more recently, the internet. The Counseling Program, therefore, seeks to "correct" this misunderstanding by reinforcing the official state version of Islam."


While I disagree with the "state" factor in this.. it can be diversified for different communities.. those from which the young men originally came from.
moreover.. such a program can be expanded to seminaries.
Education is always the best cure for this.. and secular motives are also attractive.

But of the four people I know personally as supporters/members of Hizb-ut-tahrir.. two of them came from very moderate and balanced families.
One came from a very agnostic background.. and the fourth had a disturbed domestic environment.
If there is an option that is not as extreme as the Hizbi groups.. but equally or more attractive. Is it not worth pursuing?
 
.
Back
Top Bottom