Coercion Sabotage Or Incompetence :---

[BetterPakistan]

Hi,

We had around 5 billion dollars---a nice fair deal would have been done with that.

We just made a wassteful deal of 8 subs with 5 billion dollars---.

We could have split it 2 ways or 3 ways to compliment all the forces.

Those submarines will come from 2022-28 and before 2022 we can invest in somewhere else. I feel our defence budget will be $15-17 in 2022-23 so we will have enough money to spend on procurements other than those 8 lethal submarines.

Mastan Sahb... what is contingent liabilities budget given to military? 190 bn for present year?

 

[el nino]

Those submarines will come from 2022-28 and before 2022 we can invest in somewhere else. I feel our defence budget will be $15-17 in 2022-23 so we will have enough money to spend on procurements other than those 8 lethal submarines.

Mastan Sahb... what is contingent liabilities budget given to military? 190 bn for present year?

15 billion as total budget is chicken feed today let alone 2022

You have to find billions of dollars in wages and pensions
billions more to maintain combat planes ships tanks training base repair and uniforms food social activities.

Pakistan hides its real defense budget but intentionally leaving out wages pensions . This adds another four billion dollars a year.

Thie defense budget is around 5% of the GDP which is huge burden on the economy

15 billion as total budget is chicken feed today let alone 2022

You have to find billions of dollars in wages and pensions
billions more to maintain combat planes ships tanks training base repair and uniforms food social activities.

Pakistan hides its real defense budget but intentionally leaving out wages pensions . This adds another four billion dollars a year.

Thie defense budget is around 5% of the GDP which is huge burden on the economy

Out of 15 billion onc take account of everything I mentioned there would be nothing left for new equipment .

This is the real reason why Pakistan has to budget platforms or used planes or obtain grant aid.

There is nothing left after all costs taken out

 

[MastanKhan]

But where is other half.

In Current scenario JFT is at best a point defence fighter,in any engagement it will drop it's all tanks which already are carrying a drag penalty plus occupying three hard points,given short range coupled with small payload,it will not be leaving own borders.
Addition of a dorsel spine in A model like B is need of hour.That will increase on station time and will free three vital hard points.
No doubt in any conflict it will be our work horse carrying out bulk of our work.

Everybody is right in there opinion be it's @MastanKhan or sir @Bilal Khan 777.
PAF needs money to buy Aircraft obviously they can't do it on themselves,Every craftman desires to have best tools so that he can show his skills but not everyone has luxury to buy latest tools.
All defence procurement is done by Armed forces themselves because our politicians don't have any interest in Defence matters,do you think any politician will be reading that all,a big no once our sitting Defence Minister said F-16 is incapable of shooting down drones,with such qualified person as DM you don't need enemies.PAF is in dire need of a new platform but who will finance,Political Government,Defence is not in there any priority list because a new bought fighter will not be carrying name of any politician on it's body.
Behind all doubts we are poor nation,many people's will talk about corruption and blah blah in PAF but if even all of PAF personal start serving without pay,still you will not be able to procure anything substantial.
The bottom line is that PAF has to manage what little bheek it's given.Our Army is our nation's posture figure in Armed forces,they are getting huge chunk of budget and to be frank PAF isn't capable of doing any miracle with funds.
And last Air Chief not doing this on media bahi apna peet kon nanga karey kai dekhata hai,and to whom ACM should complain through media Government andhi hai kia,dekh nahi sakti and awam,wo log jonho nai is Government ko chuna
Last there is nothing like sabotage and incompetence at PAF's end give them money and they will buy,it's even miracle that PAF is in that condition that's too only due to outstanding management or else who likes to fly Mirages in active duty.
Our priorities are Metros and buses and roads not fighters,Orange line is lahore is exceeding 3 billion USD today,you can easily guess our priorities.

Hi,

Here is a concern and issue with the post---.

You are again justifying the negligence of the Paf---.

Let me give you an example---of real life---. A major new car dealership---at a very large automall in southern california---.

It exchanged ownership 3 months ago---. Prior to the new owner---the dlrship was doing 100-125 new and used cars a month---year after year for at least 15 years.

In the 2nd month of new ownership---the dlrship did 189 vehicles---in the 3rd month---it is tracking 250 vehicles.

What changed---the owner---and the management---previous management was lazy---they could have done 200 cars easy---but then they would have to work a little harder.

So---this dlrship under performed for 15 years due to bad managers---and everyone was up with their excuses---it can't be done---it is not possible---this is the limit---.

The poor owner is crying now---now he realizes and now he believes that his dlrship could have done much better---and he is crying because he realizes---a better performing dlrship---doing 200 vehicles a month would have brought him another 5 million dollars---.

You people will be surprised at how often that happens---old owner and their steady employees run the dlrships to the ground or keep it under performiong---.

Most new and pro active dealer principals don't care for management loyalty---they keep changing managers after a certain minimum time to keep up with the increasing performance---.

But most of the pakistanis will not understand that concept---where they live with ' all is good mentality '---.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hi,

Here is a concern and issue with the post---.

You are again justifying the negligence of the Paf---.

Let me give you an example---of real life---. A major new car dealership---at a very large automall in southern california---.

It exchanged ownership 3 months ago---. Prior to the new owner---the dlrship was doing 100-125 new and used cars a month---year after year for at least 15 years.

In the 2nd month of new ownership---the dlrship did 189 vehicles---in the 3rd month---it is tracking 250 vehicles.

What changed---the owner---and the management---previous management was lazy---they could have done 200 cars easy---but then they would have to work a little harder.

So---this dlrship under performed for 15 years due to bad managers---and everyone was up with their excuses---it can't be done---it is not possible---this is the limit---.

The poor owner is crying now---now he realizes and now he believes that his dlrship could have done much better---and he is crying because he realizes---a better performing dlrship---doing 200 vehicles a month would have brought him another 5 million dollars---.

You people will be surprised at how often that happens---old owner and their steady employees run the dlrships to the ground or keep it under performiong---.

Most new and pro active dealer principals don't care for management loyalty---they keep changing managers after a certain minimum time to keep up with the increasing performance---.

But most of the pakistanis will not understand that concept---where they live with ' all is good mentality '---.

Hey MK, should I send you my resume? Maybe you can hire me Chotoo.

 

[Sine Nomine]

You are again justifying the negligence of the Paf---.

Sir please tell me what PAF has to do with unavailability of funds,what's there negligence in that?
PAF is running after F16 due to the fact that we have already logistics created for that,what money we have in hands is not enough for creation of infrastructure for new fighter and at same time acquisition,if even procurement is done then still numbers would be so low that it will not make any difference.

 

[BetterPakistan]

15 billion as total budget is chicken feed today let alone 2022

You have to find billions of dollars in wages and pensions
billions more to maintain combat planes ships tanks training base repair and uniforms food social activities.

Pakistan hides its real defense budget but intentionally leaving out wages pensions . This adds another four billion dollars a year.

Thie defense budget is around 5% of the GDP which is huge burden on the economy

This defence budget is a livelihood for more than 1.5 million people in Pakistan too.

 

[Trango Towers]

Hey MK, should I send you my resume? Maybe you can hire me Chotoo.

Don't worry Bhai. Empty vessels make the most noise.
Having underachieved all their lives they feel the compulsion to preach to others.
Here no one will listening to their frustrations. just smile and say PAF zindabad

 

[Windjammer]

I seldom get involved in such personal opinion articles or debates, however MK seems to overlook a couple of realities.
The post 9/11 situation was nothing like the period when Soviets invaded Afghanistan in the late 80s, when Pakistan became first line of defense for the West, the US and others needed Pakistan's support and stand to counter the Soviet threat. After 9/11, US was behaving like a raging Elephant ready to trample anyone and everyone that stood in it's path.
When a superpower gives you the ultimatum, either you are with us or against us, it leaves little room to bargain or has the OP forgotten the threat of being bombed back to stone age....I guess Pakistan really had the option to bargain for a few squadrons. !!!

Was the Paf worried that if they procured the right aircraft---the army would start a war with india---?

Was the Paf scared of engaging the indian air force if the army got into a war---?

What can i say MK Sahib, isn't that like you starving yourself to look weak and vulnerable so your brother doesn't pick a fight with the neighbor.... good safety measure but what if your rowdy neighbor starts the fight, what will you do then.....I'm sure you have heard of the glass half empty story... had you bothered keeping up with news of some latest confrontations on the LOC between the two air forces, you would certainly see the glass hald full.....but it all boils down to the intention.

 

[MastanKhan]

I seldom get involved in such personal opinion articles or debates, however MK seems to overlook a couple of realities.
The post 9/11 situation was nothing like the period when Soviets invaded Afghanistan in the late 80s, when Pakistan became first line of defense for the West, the US and others needed Pakistan's support and stand to counter the Soviet threat. After 9/11, US was behaving like a raging Elephant ready to trample anyone and everyone that stood in it's path.
When a superpower gives you the ultimatum, either you are with us or against us, it leaves little room to bargain or has the OP forgotten the threat of being bombed back to stone age....I guess Pakistan really had the option to bargain for a few squadrons. !!!



What can i say MK Sahib, isn't that like you starving yourself to look weak and vulnerable so your brother doesn't pick a fight with the neighbor.... good safety measure but what if your rowdy neighbor starts the fight, what will you do then.....I'm sure you have heard of the glass half empty story... had you bothered keeping up with news of some latest confrontations on the LOC between the two air forces, you would certainly see the glass hald full.....but it all boils down to the intention.

Hi,

Just because the superpower gave the ultimatum---does not mean that you cannot ask for the desired deal.

After the agreement---that was the time for the generals to show that they had steel ballz---.

These dumb fckers could not comprehend the deal---the americans gave each Afghani Warlord Pallets load Dollars---.

The bargain was open after agreement---. Gen Collin Powell is ON RECORD stating that they were surprised at Pakistan's weak demands---.

I don't know what kind of B S are you pulling out of the hat---the world knew of Pakistan's weak demands---the Indians knew of Pakistan's weak demands---and there was talk world over---" what the fck did pakistan do just now "---" it got the cash cow delivered to its house and it fckd up ".

How fckd up you are as a nation---the billion dollars was supposedly payment for posting the millitary to the frontline---it was a SERVICE CHARGE---the service pak military provided to the US---and you guys could not name it right---you guys could not even justify that expense---.

And how stupid your generals were---the morons---instead of CHARGING THE U S UPFRONT---gave it as a free floating loan to the U S for one whole year + the time it took to get the money back---.

And then you got pakistan bashed over its head for this aid---made it a laughing stock of the world---and still did not justify that this was a payment for services provided.

Gen Collin Powell is also on record stating " Pakistan military don't know what they want---they ask for one thing---the next day they change it to another thing---".

You guys are busy hiding the stupidity of the pakistani generals and treachery of the pakistani air force generals against pakistan---.

The U S president can declare a war without getting the approval of congress if he wants to---.

Just like they airlifted supplies to israel during the 1973 war as an urgent need---in a similar manner---Paf could have asked for and received the F16's at that time as an urgent need---.

That was the first thing the americans were expecting from Paf---a delivery of 36 +++ F16's right away from existing stock---.

Their jaws dropped to the floor---when they did not receive this demand---.

That is why I keep saying---you kids have NO CLUE how to deal with the americans---and neither do your generals---.

 

[IceCold]

Hi,

That is not a very intelligent post from you---.

Just because the superpower gave the ultimatum---does not mean that you cannot ask for the desired deal.

After the agreement---that was the time for the generals to show that they had steel ballz---.

These dumb fckers could not comprehend the deal---the americans gave each Afghani Warlord Pallets load Dollars---.

The bargain was open after agreement---. Gen Collin Powell is ON RECORD stating that they were surprised at Pakistan's weak demands---.

I don't know what kind of B S are you pulling out of the hat---the world knew of Pakistan's weak demands---the Indians knew of Pakistan's weak demands---and there was talk world over---" what the fck did pakistan do just now "---" it got the cash cow delivered to its house and it fckd up ".

How fckd up you are as a nation---the billion dollars was supposedly payment for posting the millitary to the frontline---it was a SERVICE CHARGE---the service pak military provided to the US---and you guys could not name it right---you guys could not even justify that expense---.

And how stupid your generals were---the morons---instead of CHARGING THE U S UPFRONT---gave it as a free floating loan to the U S for one whole year + the time it took to get the money back---.

And then you got pakistan bashed over its head for this aid---made it a laughing stock of the world---and still did not justify that this was a payment for services provided.

Gen Collin Powell is also on record stating " Pakistan military don't know what they want---they ask for one thing---the next day they change it to another thing---".

You guys are busy hiding the stupidity of the pakistani generals and treachery of the pakistani air force generals against pakistan---.

The U S president can declare a war without getting the approval of congress if he wants to---.

Just like they airlifted supplies to israel during the 1973 war as an urgent need---in a similar manner---Paf could have asked for and received the F16's at that time as an urgent need---.

That was the first thing the americans were expecting from Paf---a delivery of 36 +++ F16's right away from existing stock---.

Their jaws dropped to the floor---when they did not receive this demand---.

That is why I keep saying---you kids have NO CLUE how to deal with the americans---and neither do your generals---.

I believe part of the problem also lies with incompetent bunch of A holes we have for civilian leadership. Had civilian leadership up to the task, military would had remained in their domain and not get involved in politics but unfortunately since that never happened so military became the holy cow. It created such an image that it is the only saviour of Pakistan (To some extent they are) and hence whatever they do they can do with impunity and are above criticism and oversight. Today its no different. With the incompetence of Nawaz led government at every juncture do you believe military will even bother with a PM like him yet alone take him or his government into confidence over important military acquisitions? Neither will nawaz be interested in it. His only priority now is to somehow get a clean chit in Panama.
So the fault does not lie with the generals alone, it lies with the political elite as well. Had we have a proper democratic setup and not this sham of a democracy, politicians could have handled the americans on the political front while generals dealt on the ground. Sadly no politician was up to the task so military had to step in and while they managed to some extent but overall they screwed on both fronts until Raheel Sharif took over and situation start changing on the ground. Politically however we cannot say the same.

 

[MastanKhan]

I believe part of the problem also lies with incompetent bunch of A holes we have for civilian leadership. Had civilian leadership up to the task, military would had remained in their domain and not get involved in politics but unfortunately since that never happened so military became the holy cow. It created such an image that it is the only saviour of Pakistan (To some extent they are) and hence whatever they do they can do with impunity and are above criticism and oversight. Today its no different. With the incompetence of Nawaz led government at every juncture do you believe military will even bother with a PM like him yet alone take him or his government into confidence over important military acquisitions? Neither will nawaz be interested in it. His only priority now is to somehow get a clean chit in Panama.
So the fault does not lie with the generals alone, it lies with the political elite as well. Had we have a proper democratic setup and not this sham of a democracy, politicians could have handled the americans on the political front while generals dealt on the ground. Sadly no politician was up to the task so military had to step in and while they managed to some extent but overall they screwed on both fronts until Raheel Sharif took over and situation start changing on the ground. Politically however we cannot say the same.

Hi,

You hit the nail right on the head---if the politicians were capable---we would not be seeing this day.

Other than the American and British---the generals from all other countries are 'muts' when it come to 'deal making'---. It is not a part of their training---it is not a part of their psyche---it is not a part of their programming.

Our politicians failed us from day two onwards after the death of Jinnah---. Liaquat Ali Khan---got into a sarcastic match with the U S---after the U S asked for its assistance with Iran about oil---he bluntly refused and insulted the U S---and that was not the time for that.

Liaquat Ali could have nicely forwarded the request to Mussadiq for oil favors---if he had agreed---pakistan would have bourne the fruit---and there would have been no overthrow of Mussadiq govt---and pakistani would come out of it smelling like roses---but if Mussadiq disagreed---Liaquat Ali had done his job---.

But no---he decided to retort back to the U S---. Did not bode well for him and for pakistan.

It has been the failure of the politicians that the military has come to power---over 40 years of military rule in pakistan---ie---over 2/3rds the time it ruled the state---.

And then when the state needs it the most---the military decide---we don't want any say in the matters of state---and let the politicians have a " free for all " during the Zardari regime and Nawaz regime---.

Instead of keeping a watch on the politicians---they started collaborating with the same criminals who were ordered in the past by the courts that they could not stand for any public office---.

What I want to say is---that instead of doing it half-ars-ed---why not make peace with india---if you don't have the money for weapons--then sell the nucs---build an industry---build schools colleges and walk away from war.

But if war is that is wanted---then justice needs to be done with procuring the war machinery in the right and appropriate and a timely manner---.

This crying game of NO FUNDS need to stop.

If you look at the F16 purchase---or trying to make the deal on the M2K's---the Rafale---The thompson EW suite---the recent F16 fiasco---there is no larceny---no connivance---no shystery---no DEAL MAKING behind all these---.

There is no setting up of the seller to make the deal happen---.

The basic 101 in car buying is---never tell the dealer that you desperately want that car---. Never tell the dealer that you even want the car---always show that you are not in need---Never tell them that their product is the best---because then they got you by the ballz---.

When you tell them that the F16 is ther best---we have the setup for it---we are not going anywhere else---what does it tell you of the mindset of the person wanting to buy the F16.

What kind of deal making power do you think this person has---what kind of negotiation do you think that this person can make---none---nothing---zilch---nada---.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

This post is dead, and has turned into personal insults, lame and repetitive arguments, and historical brouhaha. Moderators, please close this thread.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Moderators?

 

[Jammer]

This post is dead, and has turned into personal insults, lame and repetitive arguments, and historical brouhaha. Moderators, please close this thread.

Check Sir! This is ridiculous! Moderators?

 

[SQ8]

Moderators?

Agreed. Its outlived its intellectual discussion stage and into ego thumping

Please use the report button as that is the only way to truly alert the moderatorion team