CIA declassified documents Air War 1971 - PAF v IAF

[Falcon26]

1971 was just a political failure .
Militarily we actually outperformed given the way less resources we had in comparison with Indian army.
That's the reason indians always bring this topic of 1971 war when they lost argument or to hide their shame. Their biggest shame is that a 7 times smaller nations gave them a very hard time in 1948,1965,1999 and 2019.
The lessons of us pakistanis is that the real owners of pakistan be it soldiers ,hardworking civilians etc do not compromise when it comes to saving Pakistan . But unfortunately the few ruling elites and corrupt politicians of this country always let us down and embarrassed us.We need to identify and declare them as enemies of the nation and should be treated similarly like we treat indians.
But in recent years the military and civil political leadership is on the same page ,there is no way a thing like 1971 can ever happen again.On top of that the pakistani military is far better trained and battle hardened given we are fighting since the Soviet war in Afghanistan. As far as the conventional warfare goes I will not be surprised in the next complete all out war India losing big chunks of it's land.

Pakistan had to fight the war thousands of miles away in a hostile territory populated by hostile population and separated by a hostile power. There’s no way Pakistan or any other country in the world could have won. 1971 is an anomaly. Pakistan has never lost in its current territory.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Pakistan has never lost in its current territory.

And never will.

 

[Danish saleem]

correct Bhutto was the main prime planners in the 1971 debacle... his refusal to accept Rehman's election victory was the main cause of the mutiny... or more accurately it blew things over to the point no return.




93K soldiers?.. who told you that?... it was 45K , the rest for civilian.

dont spread non sense.





Please name one civilian accountable?..

which civilian sir? General Yahya, General Niazi, and General Jamshed Playing Cards! name one civilian leader who was in Govt and holding any office , Name just one?

1971 was just a political failure .
Militarily we actually outperformed given the way less resources we had in comparison with Indian army.
That's the reason indians always bring this topic of 1971 war when they lost argument or to hide their shame. Their biggest shame is that a 7 times smaller nations gave them a very hard time in 1948,1965,1999 and 2019.
The lessons of us pakistanis is that the real owners of pakistan be it soldiers ,hardworking civilians etc do not compromise when it comes to saving Pakistan . But unfortunately the few ruling elites and corrupt politicians of this country always let us down and embarrassed us.We need to identify and declare them as enemies of the nation and should be treated similarly like we treat indians.
But in recent years the military and civil political leadership is on the same page ,there is no way a thing like 1971 can ever happen again.On top of that the pakistani military is far better trained and battle hardened given we are fighting since the Soviet war in Afghanistan. As far as the conventional warfare goes I will not be surprised in the next complete all out war India losing big chunks of it's land.

it was a Political failure of Military Govt , in which Military govt not even realized who is friend and who is Enemy. having 12 Squadrons of Airforce in west pakistan and 1 in East Pakistan is leadership? having few gun boats placed in East Pakistan, and all four Submarine stationed in West Pakistan is Leadership? after Indian Attack on East Pakistan, not attacking from west Pakistan in indian territory is leadership? and dont forgot to read the names of woman visited Yayha Khan, Niazi, and Jamshed , already published in Hamood ur Rehman report officially published by Musharaaf regime in 2000. The Number of women are in hundreds with their names and their time of visit . on the the Day of Dhaka Fall, Yayha Khan was so drunk that he not even able to walk.

sorry brother, come out of perception and try to learn from Mistakes we made. Dhaka was already falled when Yayha refused to handover Power Mujeeb ur Rehman, because of his 6 Points .

It doesn't matter. After winning the election he was running the show and Yehya was helpless.

A rulling General is so helpless that sitting civilians running the show? did u like to comment whey Yayha was so helpless? Military was on in rule from 1958, and they were helpless in 1971? it that your point.

And never will.

and what happen in siachen?

 

[SABRE]

correct Bhutto was the main prime planners in the 1971 debacle... his refusal to accept Rehman's election victory was the main cause of the mutiny... or more accurately it blew things over to the point no return.

Bhutto's politicking cannot be ruled out but it is just one of the factors. Bangalis/East Pakistanis had been continuously undermined by the West. Three East Pakistani prime ministers were sent home packing (but to be fair so were West Pakistan prime ministers). The One Unit designed to undermine East Pakistan's majority was also not of Bhutto's doing. He wasn't even part of the government back then. But lest we forget, Bhutto was military's poster child. He was more acceptable than Mujib.

According to one senior government official of the time, it was Yahya who was absolutely unwilling to transfer powers to Mujib. He speculated - rather anticipated - East Pakistan's breakup even if West Pakistan accepted Mujib's mandate. Yahya feared that Mujib would transfer important assets to the East and declare independence. Thus he did three things

1. Delayed the acceptance of Mujib's mandate
2. Arrested Mujib
3. Ordered clampdown on East Pakistan political wings

In an interview to The New York Times, Mujib later recalled that Yahya was actually planning to kill him in prison but Bhutto arranged for secretly releasing him and smuggle him out of the country. The quote from TNYT is below:
“Sheik Mujibur Rahman has disclosed that an order for his execution in the final hours of the India‐Pakistan war was thwarted by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, who arranged to have him smuggled out of a prison where he had been in solitary confinement for nine months. At the time, Mr Bhutto had not yet replaced Gen Agha Mohammad Yahya Khan as Pakistan’s President.”
https://www.nytimes.com/1972/01/17/...hutto-foiled-an-execution-order-by-yahya.html

In East Pakistan, Sahab Zada Yaqub received orders from the military and not Bhutto to commence a military operation, which he refused and tendered his resignation.

It is rumoured that Ayub once frustration with East Pakistani political elites asked them to breakaway (he may not have meant it though). To this, the East Pakistani political elites replied that they are in majority its the West Pakistan that should break away.

The conclusion, however, is that "it takes two hands to clap." Bhutto was not the instigator of the 1971 crisis but he did take political advantage of it and by doing so hastened the inevitability.

 

[KhanBaba2]

Pakistan has never lost in its current territory.

Nobody has ever lost its current territory. That is why it is their current territory. If they had lost it, it would have been their previous territory.

 

[Falcon26]

Nobody has ever lost its current territory. That is why it is their current territory. If they had lost it, it would have been their previous territory.

Actually.

What I meant to say is that Pakistan has never lost in the Eastern Wing, modern Pakistan. 1971 was an anomaly which speaks to the courage and competency of Pakistan armed forces in thwarting a conniving enemy 10x bigger without any outside help. And yes, countries do lose on “their current territory” look at the 1962 India-China war lol

which civilian sir? General Yahya, General Niazi, and General Jamshed Playing Cards! name one civilian leader who was in Govt and holding any office , Name just one?




it was a Political failure of Military Govt , in which Military govt not even realized who is friend and who is Enemy. having 12 Squadrons of Airforce in west pakistan and 1 in East Pakistan is leadership? having few gun boats placed in East Pakistan, and all four Submarine stationed in West Pakistan is Leadership? after Indian Attack on East Pakistan, not attacking from west Pakistan in indian territory is leadership? and dont forgot to read the names of woman visited Yayha Khan, Niazi, and Jamshed , already published in Hamood ur Rehman report officially published by Musharaaf regime in 2000. The Number of women are in hundreds with their names and their time of visit . on the the Day of Dhaka Fall, Yayha Khan was so drunk that he not even able to walk.

sorry brother, come out of perception and try to learn from Mistakes we made. Dhaka was already falled when Yayha refused to handover Power Mujeeb ur Rehman, because of his 6 Points .



A rulling General is so helpless that sitting civilians running the show? did u like to comment whey Yayha was so helpless? Military was on in rule from 1958, and they were helpless in 1971? it that your point.



and what happen in siachen?

Good points. The “defense of the East lies in the West” was a dodgy doctrine that contributed to the outcome of the war. The current reliance on PAF to provide cover to the navy and the Army while taking on the 3x bigger Indian Air Force seems to fit this same mentality. Ideally, the navy should have a squadron or two of its own and the army needs to invest in more armed helicopters and ground attack aircrafts so that PAF could focus on IAF.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

What people should also realize, that in the PAF losses exist 2 squadrons (more like 1.5) that were in the East Pakistan sector. They were eventually destroyed by PAF before the eastern sector surrender. So the true kill to loss ratios as it relates to active kinetic and A2A combat was even better for Pakistan. Having said that it is established that any attacking entity is likely to incur greater losses.

 

[Cuirassier]

What people should also realize, that in the PAF losses exist 2 squadrons (more like 1.5) that were in the East Pakistan sector. They were eventually destroyed by PAF before the eastern sector surrender. So the true kill to loss ratios as it relates to active kinetic and A2A combat was even better for Pakistan. Having said that it is established that any attacking entity is likely to incur greater losses.

Yeah. In en action losses were 57 & 24 for IAF & PAF respectively.

 

[PradoTLC]

What people should also realize, that in the PAF losses exist 2 squadrons (more like 1.5) that were in the East Pakistan sector. They were eventually destroyed by PAF before the eastern sector surrender. So the true kill to loss ratios as it relates to active kinetic and A2A combat was even better for Pakistan. Having said that it is established that any attacking entity is likely to incur greater losses.

True ... but that was not the point of this thread...

the point was Indians were caught lying again....

they always claim they inflicted far more losses on us .... and most laymen tended to agree given the fact we “lost” the war...

 

[Baghial]

True ... but that was not the point of this thread...

the point was Indians were caught lying again....

they always claim they inflicted far more losses on us .... and most laymen tended to agree given the fact we “lost” the war...

https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FCombatFootage%252Fcomments%252Fgywde4%252F

 

[PanzerKiel]

https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FCombatFootage%252Fcomments%252Fgywde4%252F

SU-7s lame pull-up capability after a pass was notorious in 1971, this weakness was duly exploited by our AAA regiments.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

SU-7s lame pull-up capability after a pass was notorious in 1971, this weakness was duly exploited by our AAA regiments.

according to Indians Su-7 was really bad aircraft and PAF F-86 was state of the art.

 

[PanzerKiel]

according to Indians Su-7 was really bad aircraft and PAF F-86 was state of the art.

There was something with their doctrine as well...

Soviet doctrine required Su-7s to do only one attack pass, coming from multiple directions singly and depart...

IAF always came from one direction, in neat formations, and did multiple passes...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

There was something with their doctrine as well...

Soviet doctrine required Su-7s to do only one attack pass, coming from multiple directions singly and depart...

IAF always came from one direction, in neat formations, and did multiple passes...

just curious, why do you have german soldier DP and do you have any military background?
thanks

 

[PanzerKiel]

just curious, why do you have german soldier DP and do you have any military background?
thanks

He is Field Marshal Erich von Manstein, hailed as probably the greatest strategist of German Army in WW2.

Yeah, i do have a little bit of military background.