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Chumik Operation 1989

I dont know why people want PAF support when army aviation corps has armed uacv that alone can be used to hit Indian supply lines without much trouble all we need is better armed drones which can fly high and cause havoc and some really good artillery cover the uavs can play double role designate target for artillery and do precision strikes if we can hit Indian army posts with uavs there would be nothing India could do about it if they call their airforce we call our airforce the main point is we have to be swift and well prepared in numbers that's how offensives are done nowadays use uavs to target well managed defensive lines use artillery to cause more havoc then use uavs to target supply lines hit aerial transport with manpads capture destroyed positions quickly if you allow the enemy to assess the situation and counter attack you have literally wasted all your effort
 
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Nowadays armed drones are used for hitting mountain tops the Indians dont even have much experience with armed drones whilst we do everything is in our favour except the number off troops nowadays if we sit idle for too long siachen is as good as getting occupied Kashmir back
... Just to add..

The last time someone thought of a serious assault against well defended positions A BIT BELOW Siachen, the attack ratios were calculated at 16:1.
 
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3 x Inf brigades of FCNA.
1 x Brigade sized GB scouts force which is spread all over.

This is a defending force which can defend against an IA attack but to launch an attack and carry on that attack towards any axis, lets suppose the axis is Leh, a bigger force with stretched logistics line, flanks and peaks covered on all roads and intersections plus full PAF participation is required. Continuous sorties from PAF which not only strike enemy targets on the ground but also gain air superiority so if any progress is made, it doesnt get hampered by IAF strikes. PA will need motorized transport to carry on the offensive, where as most of the areas inside AJK are mule tracks. More PA forces brought in as reinforcements means more logistics and supply required. If the roads get blocked through any cause, the delay will cost dearly. Heli is the fastest transport option that PA has got to insert troops whether on peaks/intersections or re-supply. If there are bridges and enemy blows them up, that will leave vehicles stranded on the road unable to move ahead till engineers find an alternative or modify terrain for vehicles to cross over.

In any case, without PAF air cover there is hardly a chance for PA ground forces to make any breakthrough or continue offensively. See the amount of tonnes expended by IAF in Kargil war, pounding peak after peak to dislodge PA forces. IAF will try to take out Skardu AFB as priority.

I would bring in PA units to take over defensive duties and use Gilgit Scouts and FCNA as well as special PA units for offensive operations. I agree about this being an airborne affair with heavy heli usage.

I think by major artillery and airstrikes, triggering multiple avalanches, you'd have a very good situation for heliborne assault. But the issue should not just be numbers - it can be more. Like the turret idea you used - by using remote turrets and UGVs, dropped onto mountain strategic locations, you can robotize the war and reduce your logistics foot print. Let them be electric run turrets, stationary or mobile and charging can be from solar power.

Airstrikes will completely change the equation and a major disruptor for India.

Another out of the box solution could be use of jetpacks. This technology has advanced and perhaps can be trialed at altitude to see if they can be useful.

Stretched logistics can only be sustained with a better air transport fleet than Pak currently has. This is why I was suggesting that Pak get the C-27J Spartans which are sitting in the Boneyard with little airframe use. Even if a Chinese platform is acquired, these will help. Z-20s would be enormously useful as well, and again could be a major disrupting influence.

Last but not the least - perhaps the most - drones. Drones in numbers not seen before.

PA aim should be to use Siachen as bait - snatch it, and let the Indian ego try to take it back, as they shift forces, perhaps PA could attack other sectors as well, kind of a prelude to a Kashmir war.

... Just to add..

The last time someone thought of a serious assault against well defended positions A BIT BELOW Siachen, the attack ratios were calculated at 16:1.

Airstrikes in Siachen with precision munition will severely impact the Indians. This will reduce their numbers, and inability to reinforce would also help. Airborne assaults would allow rapid force concentration.
 
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I would bring in PA units to take over defensive duties and use Gilgit Scouts and FCNA as well as special PA units for offensive operations. I agree about this being an airborne affair with heavy heli usage.

I think by major artillery and airstrikes, triggering multiple avalanches, you'd have a very good situation for heliborne assault. But the issue should not just be numbers - it can be more. Like the turret idea you used - by using remote turrets and UGVs, dropped onto mountain strategic locations, you can robotize the war and reduce your logistics foot print. Let them be electric run turrets, stationary or mobile and charging can be from solar power.

Airstrikes will completely change the equation and a major disruptor for India.

Another out of the box solution could be use of jetpacks. This technology has advanced and perhaps can be trialed at altitude to see if they can be useful.

Stretched logistics can only be sustained with a better air transport fleet than Pak currently has. This is why I was suggesting that Pak get the C-27J Spartans which are sitting in the Boneyard with little airframe use. Even if a Chinese platform is acquired, these will help. Z-20s would be enormously useful as well, and again could be a major disrupting influence.

Last but not the least - perhaps the most - drones. Drones in numbers not seen before.

PA aim should be to use Siachen as bait - snatch it, and let the Indian ego try to take it back, as they shift forces, perhaps PA could attack other sectors as well, kind of a prelude to a Kashmir war.



Airstrikes in Siachen with precision munition will severely impact the Indians. This will reduce their numbers, and inability to reinforce would also help. Airborne assaults would allow rapid force concentration.

If you’re going to throw in the Air Force, why not simply pull back and let them wreck havoc on the Indian position. Let them deal with the avalanche and all the problems of supply and maintenance. Just let it be known that you won’t allow anyone to take up posts in that region. Remain in your defensive positions on LOC and let the air force root them out and deal with IAF as well.
 
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I would bring in PA units to take over defensive duties and use Gilgit Scouts and FCNA as well as special PA units for offensive operations. I agree about this being an airborne affair with heavy heli usage.

I think by major artillery and airstrikes, triggering multiple avalanches, you'd have a very good situation for heliborne assault. But the issue should not just be numbers - it can be more. Like the turret idea you used - by using remote turrets and UGVs, dropped onto mountain strategic locations, you can robotize the war and reduce your logistics foot print. Let them be electric run turrets, stationary or mobile and charging can be from solar power.

Airstrikes will completely change the equation and a major disruptor for India.

Another out of the box solution could be use of jetpacks. This technology has advanced and perhaps can be trialed at altitude to see if they can be useful.

Stretched logistics can only be sustained with a better air transport fleet than Pak currently has. This is why I was suggesting that Pak get the C-27J Spartans which are sitting in the Boneyard with little airframe use. Even if a Chinese platform is acquired, these will help. Z-20s would be enormously useful as well, and again could be a major disrupting influence.

Last but not the least - perhaps the most - drones. Drones in numbers not seen before.

PA aim should be to use Siachen as bait - snatch it, and let the Indian ego try to take it back, as they shift forces, perhaps PA could attack other sectors as well, kind of a prelude to a Kashmir war.



Airstrikes in Siachen with precision munition will severely impact the Indians. This will reduce their numbers, and inability to reinforce would also help. Airborne assaults would allow rapid force concentration.

If there is any offensive, it has to be in months of summer due to adverse weather. Its easy to defend in snow conditions than attack. So its better to attack when snow has melted, gain some ground and defend it when snow fall starts again. Snow affects man and machinery -both.

FNCA and GB scouts just make 4 brigades in total, that is still a very small force to start an offensive. Its not the roads or intersections that need to be taken, peaks need to be taken too to secure flanks as well as guard the captured area. India consistently used Artillery and Air force to strike PA positions in Kargil war which brought results, so these are tested weapons in that terrain. PA would need other heavy weapons like RRs, rocket launchers, ATGMs, mortars etc. These would require rounds to be carried and then re-supplied. Only G-3, Sniper rifles and MG-3 will not do the job.

Air strikes are of many types - CAS by Mirages/JF-17 as PA Infantry initially starts its attack on CFL, Interdiction missions to destroy enemy reinforcements and supplies en route to CFL, SEAD/DEAD Ops to shut down enemy AD for helis to operate, Strategic bombing to take out enemy supply/ammo/POL depots, Barracks/HQs and artillery positions, "Broken arrow" bombing missions if own position gets over run etc.

PAA is poised to use its gunships for Anti-tank Ops against IA armor, so its doubtful if any gunships will be used in this sector. Two engined options for gunships could be better in J&K sector. AH-1F are single engined. AH-1Z seems a viable option, if PAA gets WZ-10 or T-129 its doubtful that they will be spared to deploy in this sector. PAA will need to create an air bridge of transport helis from a base like Skardu to forward lines. Supply through mules and motor transport will take days to reach front lines. Med evac is also necessary.

Jet packs are a costly solution, plus the power/thrust at high altitude and snowy weather conditions will need to be tested.I did start an amateur topic on robots to be used in Siachen war when i joined the forum back in 2015. Battery issues could exist and enemy EW warfare has to be ascertained. Siachen is a resource draining sector with minimal gains. I would circumvent Siachen and try to capture area/road behind it to completely cut enemy supply line.

Drones deployed in high altitude mountain warfare might need some modifications. They can be shot down by radar controlled AAA or even manual HMGs, once detected. For day and night surveillance, there is no better option than drones.

I dont know why people want PAF support when army aviation corps has armed uacv that alone can be used to hit Indian supply lines without much trouble all we need is better armed drones which can fly high and cause havoc and some really good artillery cover the uavs can play double role designate target for artillery and do precision strikes if we can hit Indian army posts with uavs there would be nothing India could do about it if they call their airforce we call our airforce the main point is we have to be swift and well prepared in numbers that's how offensives are done nowadays use uavs to target well managed defensive lines use artillery to cause more havoc then use uavs to target supply lines hit aerial transport with manpads capture destroyed positions quickly if you allow the enemy to assess the situation and counter attack you have literally wasted all your effort

UCAV carries limited payload and has limited weapon options. Burraq carries Barq missile, thats all and two at max i think. Aircrafts can carry rockets, missiles, bombs etc and more than 6-8 ordnance. UCAV will need air cover to operate, so PAF will have to go in to enemy airspace in any case either for DEAD strikes or air superiority missions for drones to operate in enemy territory.

UCAVs do not carry A2A weaponry as yet, and UAV cannot transport troops though it can carry very limited cargo like medicines, so PAF will need to go in to provide air cover to transport helis.

If you’re going to throw in the Air Force, why not simply pull back and let them wreck havoc on the Indian position. Let them deal with the avalanche and all the problems of supply and maintenance. Just let it be known that you won’t allow anyone to take up posts in that region. Remain in your defensive positions on LOC and let the air force root them out and deal with IAF as well.

The plan is to capture J&K, not start an attrition war. India can keep throwing in men and material at PA, there will be no end to it. And even if enemy positions are sabotaged by avalanches, PA will still need to clear all those areas up to advance into J&K. It will become a double task and will take away lots of precious time especially months of summer.
... Just to add..

The last time someone thought of a serious assault against well defended positions A BIT BELOW Siachen, the attack ratios were calculated at 16:1.

This is a numbers game after all. 16:1 is almost impossible to achieve for PA in terms of infantry. Other factors like Aircraft or gunship or cruise/ballistic missile strikes could bring it down.
 
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If there is any offensive, it has to be in months of summer due to adverse weather. Its easy to defend in snow conditions than attack

If we keep the attack dominantly airborne, we may be able to attack in early Spring, before Indian resupply. Thus, we would catch the Indians stretched to their limits. Also, there would be an element of surprise.

We don't need to attack every post, just think like Rommel and cut a path to their flanks. Meaning, attacking the rear is fine but we have to cut a path to that rear.
Battery issues could exist a
Solar charging - Siachen has little atmosphere between it and the sun. Solar charging could reduce charging issues. Even if the robotic turrets didn't stay charged the entire day, they could shut down at certain times and still be able to give functionality - perhaps a portion of the day / night. Recent breakthroughs in solar and lithium ion batteries have revolutionized this sector - something Pakistan hasn't been able to take advantage of.

Jet packs are a costly solution, plus the power/thrust at high altitude and snowy weather conditions

I don't know maybe they are costly for civilian market but are they costly for a one off military operation? Would need cost benefit analysis.

Drones deployed in high altitude mountain warfare might need some modifications. They can be shot down by radar controlled AAA or even manual HMGs, once detected. For day and night surveillance, there is no better option than drones.

All we need to do is replicate the successful Turkish employment.

The plan is to capture J&K, not start an attrition war.

Sometimes an indirect method works better than a direct method. This is what India did in 1971 - it created chaos that gave them the advantage. I'm basically not proposing to invade Kashmir per se, but to bait India into reacting - like Kargil. Once they put their reserves in this sector, other sectors open up for the real attack.

FNCA and GB scouts just make 4 brigades in total, that is still a very small force to start an offensive.

I was meaning that they could still form the core of the attacking forces as they are more acclimatized.

The style of warfare I'm choosing is like island hopping on helicopters mainly, with airstrikes and artillery. This doesn't need that many men. There can be some additional support by ground routed forces and para-borne forces, but the main element would be heliborne assault.

Punch through, get to the flanks, take the mountain tops at the flank before summer resupply is possible. Game over for India. Massive death toll and loss of territory will shame them. Instead of playing it down, play it up, put it in social media, get them riled up. They will order the Army to retake - putting giant resources and reserves out of southern JK front.
 
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Nowadays armed drones are used for hitting mountain tops the Indians dont even have much experience with armed drones whilst we do everything is in our favour except the number off troops nowadays if we sit idle for too long siachen is as good as getting occupied Kashmir back
please name a drone in Pakistani inventory or for that matter in any regional military inventory which can drop ordanance from altitude of atleast 25000 feet ????

I would bring in PA units to take over defensive duties and use Gilgit Scouts and FCNA as well as special PA units for offensive operations. I agree about this being an airborne affair with heavy heli usage.

I think by major artillery and airstrikes, triggering multiple avalanches, you'd have a very good situation for heliborne assault. But the issue should not just be numbers - it can be more. Like the turret idea you used - by using remote turrets and UGVs, dropped onto mountain strategic locations, you can robotize the war and reduce your logistics foot print. Let them be electric run turrets, stationary or mobile and charging can be from solar power.

Airstrikes will completely change the equation and a major disruptor for India.

Another out of the box solution could be use of jetpacks. This technology has advanced and perhaps can be trialed at altitude to see if they can be useful.

Stretched logistics can only be sustained with a better air transport fleet than Pak currently has. This is why I was suggesting that Pak get the C-27J Spartans which are sitting in the Boneyard with little airframe use. Even if a Chinese platform is acquired, these will help. Z-20s would be enormously useful as well, and again could be a major disrupting influence.

Last but not the least - perhaps the most - drones. Drones in numbers not seen before.

PA aim should be to use Siachen as bait - snatch it, and let the Indian ego try to take it back, as they shift forces, perhaps PA could attack other sectors as well, kind of a prelude to a Kashmir war.



Airstrikes in Siachen with precision munition will severely impact the Indians. This will reduce their numbers, and inability to reinforce would also help. Airborne assaults would allow rapid force concentration.
KK Scouts lost heights in Kargil and gunderman and chuluchang areas, also in tortuk sector, irregulars are no match for regular forces in frontal conflict. i say frontal because there is no way around the occupied peaks on LOC and LOAC
 
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The plan is to capture J&K, not start an attrition war. India can keep throwing in men and material at PA, there will be no end to it. And even if enemy positions are sabotaged by avalanches, PA will still need to clear all those areas up to advance into J&K. It will become a double task and will take away lots of precious time especially months of summer.

TBH, with each passing day a lot of these plans look like fantasies to me.
 
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If we keep the attack dominantly airborne, we may be able to attack in early Spring, before Indian resupply. Thus, we would catch the Indians stretched to their limits. Also, there would be an element of surprise.

We don't need to attack every post, just think like Rommel and cut a path to their flanks. Meaning, attacking the rear is fine but we have to cut a path to that rear.

Solar charging - Siachen has little atmosphere between it and the sun. Solar charging could reduce charging issues. Even if the robotic turrets didn't stay charged the entire day, they could shut down at certain times and still be able to give functionality - perhaps a portion of the day / night. Recent breakthroughs in solar and lithium ion batteries have revolutionized this sector - something Pakistan hasn't been able to take advantage of.



I don't know maybe they are costly for civilian market but are they costly for a one off military operation? Would need cost benefit analysis.



All we need to do is replicate the successful Turkish employment.



Sometimes an indirect method works better than a direct method. This is what India did in 1971 - it created chaos that gave them the advantage. I'm basically not proposing to invade Kashmir per se, but to bait India into reacting - like Kargil. Once they put their reserves in this sector, other sectors open up for the real attack.



I was meaning that they could still form the core of the attacking forces as they are more acclimatized.

The style of warfare I'm choosing is like island hopping on helicopters mainly, with airstrikes and artillery. This doesn't need that many men. There can be some additional support by ground routed forces and para-borne forces, but the main element would be heliborne assault.

Punch through, get to the flanks, take the mountain tops at the flank before summer resupply is possible. Game over for India. Massive death toll and loss of territory will shame them. Instead of playing it down, play it up, put it in social media, get them riled up. They will order the Army to retake - putting giant resources and reserves out of southern JK front.
Cmon man....
 
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If we keep the attack dominantly airborne, we may be able to attack in early Spring, before Indian resupply. Thus, we would catch the Indians stretched to their limits. Also, there would be an element of surprise.

You know, airborne elements are not like PGMs which can drop exactly within a given area.....if you drop a body of troops in this area, they will be dispersed....God knows on what will they land....crevice, cutting......because this area is not like plains where you may find a football field like level and hard area....no one can manage to land troops on a mountain peak where already 10 troops are sitting with no space for more....

then you must have seen in videos how soldiers walk here....you take one step, then breathe, then next step....you can imagine how much time it will take for airborne troops to assemble...if they survive the jump.....this area is simply NO-GO for airborne ops.

We don't need to attack every post, just think like Rommel and cut a path to their flanks. Meaning, attacking the rear is fine but we have to cut a path to that rear.

Cutting through the flanks, which you are thinking of, is not possible here, there are flanks, but they are not exploitable due to lack of all kind of mobility, difficulty to achieve surprise and snail pace of attacking troops.

Solar charging - Siachen has little atmosphere between it and the sun. Solar charging could reduce charging issues. Even if the robotic turrets didn't stay charged the entire day, they could shut down at certain times and still be able to give functionality - perhaps a portion of the day / night. Recent breakthroughs in solar and lithium ion batteries have revolutionized this sector - something Pakistan hasn't been able to take advantage of.

You may like to explore ....sun is not available the whole day......the weather closes really fast, with very limited time windows for clear sun...and then with winds and blizzards a normal, solar charging equipment will be swept away or buried under snow.

Sometimes an indirect method works better than a direct method. This is what India did in 1971 - it created chaos that gave them the advantage. I'm basically not proposing to invade Kashmir per se, but to bait India into reacting - like Kargil. Once they put their reserves in this sector, other sectors open up for the real attack.

Indirect method does not dictate that we forego the harsh terrain realities......there is a reason that the front has remained static here...it doesnt mean that both armies havent tried to change the status quo....its near to impossible now.....

The style of warfare I'm choosing is like island hopping on helicopters mainly, with airstrikes and artillery. This doesn't need that many men. There can be some additional support by ground routed forces and para-borne forces, but the main element would be heliborne assault.

Punch through, get to the flanks, take the mountain tops at the flank before summer resupply is possible. Game over for India. Massive death toll and loss of territory will shame them. Instead of playing it down, play it up, put it in social media, get them riled up. They will order the Army to retake - putting giant resources and reserves out of southern JK front.

Island hopping is exactly island hopping... entirey different from mountain hopping in glaciated terrain....

Islands are level pieces of lands while siachen is not.....

water around islands ensure speedy mobility which help in speed of operations and follow-on logistics...however, the deep snow, crevices, unexplored routes....they donot allow any such thing....try thinking about the follow on logistics for the attacking troops as welll...you may heli lift an artillery gun, but where will you place it, you cant place it anywhere, you may place on a snowy patch, which may suddenly collapse and present itself as a crevice.....and then the ammo for each artillery gun....

Again, weather is really good around around islands where you can operate day and night.....while in Siachen, this window is really small....
 
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You know, airborne elements are not like PGMs which can drop exactly within a given area.....if you drop a body of troops in this area, they will be dispersed....God knows on what will they land....crevice, cutting......because this area is not like plains where you may find a football field like level and hard area....no one can manage to land troops on a mountain peak where already 10 troops are sitting with no space for more...

I meant heliborne troops by airborne. Drone, artillery > heliborne assault. Troops from transport aircraft are possible if they can use some kind of jet pack to retain landing accuracy.
Island hopping is exactly island hopping...

In the event of avalanches and otherwise generally, it will be hard for the Indians to reinforce their positions (depending on time of assault, etc). This means that heliborne troops would be able to concentrate and with UAV / artillery support, take each position in isolation. Just like Island hopping.
its near to impossible now.....

Well, if its impossible its impossible, can never be possible until we explore the possibility of it... Pakistan believed it was impossible for India to take Siachen in the first place but the Indians were open minded enough to explore this possibility. The rest was history. How quickly do we determine the impossibility of something often dictates how successful we can be.

Drones that fly to 20,000 ft aren't an impossibility. Artillery and UAVs dropping PGMs can be possible even at extreme altitudes. Helicopter assault is possible.Why go at snail pace when you can do better. Airstrikes by PAF could have a similar decisive effect as IAF airstrikes in Kargil. Had IAF imagined it is impossible then they would have potentially lost... but they explored the possibility despite initial failures with the MiG-29.

I thought many things were impossible until I worked for some Americans who would go gliding. They would jump off a hill and sometimes fly 100 - 200 kms away in unpowered gliders. To succeed sometimes you have to think of the impossible as possible so that you can actually get the job done.
 
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