Christian couple charged with blasphemy in Gojra

[HRK]

defamation is dealt in libel laws, I cant defame the imam of east london mosque, let alone queen. I will have to pay if my words were proved wrong.
Insult is a tricky subject, queen has been called old witch, old hag who does not die etc on tv by stand up comedians. Check out ali g show(quite popular british comedy) in which he describes a hostage situation in which a terrorist put a bomb in queen's you-know-where.

Similarly attacking mosque or doing anything that stops you from practicing your faith is illegal.
However not hurting your belief is a tricky thing, people get insulted for minutest of thing, the range literally starts from zero tolerance level.

I hold the right to criticize your religious practice, so do you, criticizing an idea does not have any victim.

Dear discussion allow to understand the POV of participants......an academic discussion does not involve defaming or insulting things.....there is a fine line to be maintain.....between the understanding others POV or to impose once POV over others.....

 

[livingdead]

Dear discussion allow to understand the POV of participants......an academic discussion does not involve defaming or insulting things.....there is a fine line to be maintain.....between the understanding others POV or to impose once POV over others.....

I am only against treating religion with kids gloves, our society is mature, we should be openly able to discuss,criticize, support, oppose the ideas. Religion should be treated same as say communism, or democracy or millions of other ideas that human beings deal with.

Now some might try to insult karl marx or lenin which might be very distressing to a communist, but really not such a absurd idea when you discuss it. Most people wont do it that way, but some might, imposing an arbitrary 'no insult to lenin, only respectful criticism' can hinder robust discussion.

Thankfully internet allows one to criticize ideas including religion, which is why its brilliant.

 

[HRK]

I am only against treating religion with kids gloves, our society is mature, we should be openly able to discuss,criticize, support, oppose the ideas. Religion should be treated same as say communism, or democracy or millions of other ideas that human beings deal with.

Now some might try to insult karl marx or lenin which might be very distressing to a communist, but really not such a absurd idea when you discuss it. Most people wont do it that way, but some might, imposing an arbitrary 'no insult to lenin, only respectful criticism' can hinder robust discussion.

Thankfully internet allows one to criticize ideas including religion, which is why its brilliant.

So discuss ideas, logic, and philosophical basis.......is it necessary bring Personalities, or Object hold sacred positions.....BTW there is a difference b/w political, philosophical leaders and religious leaders....

 

[livingdead]

So discuss ideas, logic, and philosophical basis.......is it necessary bring Personalities, or Object hold sacred positions.....BTW there is a difference b/w political, philosophical leaders and religious leaders....

of course they are currently, but in a mature society, there should not be special idea or person beyond criticism.

 

[HRK]

of course they are currently, but in a mature society, there should not be special idea or person beyond criticism.

Maturity come by discussing idea, philosophy, logic and knowledge......you discuss, criticize, object, you accept or reject but dear how could you criticize God and divine instruction and Instructors......???

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Read your own post this figures are not posted by me......its what you posted

*The National Commission for Justice and Peace says that in the last 25 years, 1,058 cases of blasphemy were registered. Of the accused, 456 were Ahmadis, 449 were Muslims, 132 were Christians and 21 were Hindus" You omitted the figure of ahamadis, that's what I noticed as an inaccuracy when you quoted the figure.

* Again going by your logic who is suffering more.....??? *

Obviously the minorities because the data clearly shows that 50% of offenders are *from a community of 4% of population, a clear case of targeting the religious minorities.news reports from Pakistan suggests that it's not a mere co incident.

So you want Quota system in implementation of Law....????? ....first u were shy to post absolute figures.....now you are arguing that minorities are 4% *of population why are they constructing 50% of charged list......first thing first ........ y they committed the crime.....???

I was not shy in posting the numbers, it makes no difference whether it's number or percentage, they are in sharp contrast with the population percentage of each communities. when read along with the news even a school going kid can understand that minorities are being targeted with the help of blasphemy law sections other than 295,295-A, which is introduced by zia with stringent clauses and stricter punishments. minorities are not spared even when they are spared by judiciary.

If you take your glasses of communal and religious hatred down *you will observe this law is implemented in indiscriminate manner......

IF you put on the reading glasses you will see that all additional sections of law later introduced are Islam specific and are against equal treatment.my larger point is not just about minorities, it's about the issue misuse of this law which affects progressive Muslims as well.

* So what's your point......unless you are supporting the cause of rigorously implementation of law....so these event could be prevented..... *

Point is minorities(even liberal Muslims and atheists ) are targeted by *discriminatory laws and mob violence.

* Central Government Act Section 295 in The Indian Penal Code * 295. Injuring or defiling place of worship, with intent to insult the religion of any class.-- Whoever destroys, damages or defiles any place of worship, or any object held sacred by any class of persons with the intention of thereby insulting the religion of any class of persons or with the knowledge that any class of persons is likely to consider such destruction, damage or defilement as an insult to their religion, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both. * 295 Pakistan Panel Cod * Injuring or defiling place of worship, with Intent to insult the religion of any class: Whoever destroys, damages or defiles any place of worship, or any object held sacred by any class of persons with the intention of thereby insulting the religion of any class of persons or with the knowledge that any class of persons is likely to consider such destruction damage or defilement as an insult to their religion. shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine,or with both. * 295- A. Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by * insulting Its religion or religious beliefs: * Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the 'religious feelings of any class of the citizens of Pakistan, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations insults the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to ten years, or with fine, or with both. * Now who is lying dear...........???

it's you(by saying nothing wrong in the law), me saying " only 295-A is shared by Indian Pakistan was not a lie but a mistake of thinking 295 and 295-A are the same, my point was to make it clear that the later inclusion 295-B, 295-C etc were later addedd only in the name of special protection for Islam and is widely being misused to target minorities.

BTW technically no law could be term us secular or religious......law is law.....

A law which protects hate crimes against all the religions equally *is *secular in nature. A law which talks about protection of a single religion is non secular in nature.

what is your or people like you have problem with 295-B, 295-C....and BTW 298-B and 298-C *was not added by Zia a factual position.....

because there is a law which protects every religion equally from hate crimes(295, 295-A) then what is the need for special protection for Islam ? Why different set clauses and punishment when it comes to Islam ? If 298's were not from zia then from whom ?

 

[livingdead]

Maturity come by discussing idea, philosophy, logic and knowledge......you discuss, criticize, object, you accept or reject but dear how could you criticize God and divine instruction and Instructors......???

and why exactly I cant ctiticize god, divine instruction and instructor? You do realize there are multiple claims for this. What if an african tribal religion claims the same and says all our practices (some of which might be barbaric) is no-go area, because it deals with god, divine instruction and instructor.

Are you going to give him the same credit.

 

[indusporus]

Imagine a few hypothetical situations:
A muslim goes to a christian and asks him:
M: What's your religion?
C: Christianity
M: So, you believe that Jesus is the God?
C: Yes
M: That's blasphemy. Quran says that no human can ever be the God.

Muslim goes to a Ahmadiyya:
M: What's your religion?
A: Ahmadiyya
M: So, you don't believe that Mohammed is the last prophet of God and the words of Quran are final?
A:Well..hmm...yes.
M: That's blasphemy and insulting Islam

Muslim goes to a Hindu:
M: What's your religion?
H: Hinduism
M: What God do you believe in, then?
H: Well, I believe in 3 million gods sometimes, that every human being is a god at other times and that the universe itself is a god at some times
M: That's blasphemy, Allah is the only God and there are no other Gods except for him

It's as simple as that to frame someone with blasphemy charges. A dialogue of 4 lines. The mere existence of more than one religion is blasphemous to each other as they contradict atleast in one belief or other.

 

[SHAMK9]

This stupid sh*t again?

hopefully they get hanged

Hopefully this law is abolished as it brings nothing positive to the society and the country.

 

[HRK]

Obviously the minorities because the data clearly shows that 50% of offenders are *from a community of 4% of population, a clear case of targeting the religious minorities.news reports from Pakistan suggests that it's not a mere co incident.
I was not shy in posting the numbers, it makes no difference whether it's number or percentage, they are in sharp contrast with the population percentage of each communities. when read along with the news even a school going kid can understand that minorities are being targeted with the help of blasphemy law sections other than 295,295-A, which is introduced by zia with stringent clauses and stricter punishments. minorities are not spared even when they are spared by judiciary.

Dear if you read your figures, it could also be translated as 4% of the population showed more tendency of committing a particular crime.......y....any logical explanation .....???

If you are into statistic or social research you will come to know only figures don’t portray accurate pictures, you have to add “facts” with them to reach to a “certain conclusion”......Y are u ignoring other 50%.....???

My dear even if I go with your logic then I should also raise queries about the high percentage of Muslim prisoners in Indian jails for your kind information I am quoting some “figures” below

In Maharashtra, the percentage of Muslim jail inmates in all categories is way above their share in the population Muslim share in population is 10.6%, share in the total prison inmates is 32.4%.

When it comes to those in prison for less than a year, Muslims contribute 40.6% of all prisoners in Maharashtra.

In Gujarat, the percentage of Muslims in the state is just 9.06% but they make up over a quarter of all jail inmates.

In Karnataka 17.5% of its jail inmates are Muslim as compared with 12.23% of its population.

In Delhi, where Muslims make up 11.7% of the population, they constitute 29.1% of those in jail for less than a year.

Too many Muslims in prison, Sachar edits this out - Indian Express

Can you explain this trend my dear .......or is it just a coincidence in your word.......????

Pakistani Society as a whole has never target any minority.....whatever may be the perception fact is straight this law is implemented in indiscriminate manner that other 50% shows it

And as for your comment about judiciary I would like to know your “facts and figures” on the basis of which you came to this conclusion......can you post the figure of “CONVICTED or EXECUTED” by judiciary belongs to minority of Pakistan.

IF you put on the reading glasses you will see that all additional sections of law later introduced are Islam specific and are against equal treatment.my larger point is not just about minorities, it's about the issue misuse of this law which affects progressive Muslims as well.

My dear You have problem with Islam or with Law or with both.....??

And my dear who are you to decide who is progressive and who is not a progressive Muslim.....Islam ki thake dari aap ne lay rakhi hai.....???

BTW I would like to know your definition of “Progressive Muslim”

Point is minorities(even liberal Muslims and atheists ) are targeted by *discriminatory laws and mob violence.

How my dear how......would you care to explain yourself.....y are you ignoring other 50%......as far as mob violence is concern plz quote number of incidents so that I could compare with Mob Violence/Justice incidents of India.....

it's you,

& How is this my dear???.

It was you who quoted selected the section of law rather that complete law....it was you who ignored the absolute figures......it is you who is twisting fact to base your arguments without facts and figures.....

Khud aap hi apni adoo per ghoore kare
Ham arz karain gat u shikayet ho gi......

me saying " only 295-A is shared by Indian Pakistan was not a lie but a mistake of thinking 295 and 295-A are the same, my point was to make it clear that the later inclusion 295-B, 295-C etc were later addedd only in the name of special protection for Islam and is widely being misused to target minorities.

If it is misused as you said then y the number of cases is so low....??? only around 1000 cases in 25 years......???

because there is a law which protects every religion equally from hate crimes(295, 295-A) then what is the need for special protection for Islam ? Why different set clauses and punishment when it comes to Islam ? If 298's were not from zia then from whom ?

I may raise query regarding the logic behind the demand to remove these specific clauses.....???
If one is a law abiding citizen then Why he or she need raise demand to change the law....???

 

[HRK]

Imagine a few hypothetical situations:
A muslim goes to a christian and asks him:
M: What's your religion?
C: Christianity
M: So, you believe that Jesus is the God?
C: Yes
M: That's blasphemy. Quran says that no human can ever be the God.

Muslim goes to a Ahmadiyya:
M: What's your religion?
A: Ahmadiyya
M: So, you don't believe that Mohammed is the last prophet of God and the words of Quran are final?
A:Well..hmm...yes.
M: That's blasphemy and insulting Islam

Muslim goes to a Hindu:
M: What's your religion?
H: Hinduism
M: What God do you believe in, then?
H: Well, I believe in 3 million gods sometimes, that every human being is a god at other times and that the universe itself is a god at some times
M: That's blasphemy, Allah is the only God and there are no other Gods except for him

It's as simple as that to frame someone with blasphemy charges. A dialogue of 4 lines. The mere existence of more than one religion is blasphemous to each other as they contradict atleast in one belief or other.

This called selected religious propaganda......you just propagate your hatred and blame other to be non-tolerant....

 

[CrownPrince]

This called selected religious propaganda......you just propagate your hatred and blame other to be non-tolerant....

Thats actually what the blasphemy law is. You cannot claim anything to be true which is against what is written in the Quran. ALl the situations mentioned by the poster you quoted are how the Pakistani people and Govt trap non-Muslims and punish them for having different beliefs...

 

[HRK]

Thats actually what the blasphemy law is. You cannot claim anything to be true which is against what is written in the Quran. ALl the situations mentioned by the poster you quoted are how the Pakistani people and Govt trap non-Muslims and punish them for having different beliefs...

have you read law.....???

 

[indusporus]

This called selected religious propaganda......you just propagate your hatred and blame other to be non-tolerant....

Your post makes no sense. How am I in anyway propagating hatred??
read my post again:

Imagine a few hypothetical situations:

a lot more situations can be formed and the same situations can be reversed. The accuser is a muslim in these situations because of the context of this thread. All blasphemy laws are stupid and should be repealed because:

The mere existence of more than one religion is blasphemous to each other as they contradict atleast in one belief or other.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Seeing what they do with Muslims in their Christian Countries, If the christians r treated roughly in Muslim Countries makes perfect sense as we dont own anything to them in Muslim Countries.