Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

[chauism]

The patriot system has yet to shoot down any ballistic missile that is NON SCUD.

I have never claimed impossibility, just that as of now there is no defense against ballistic missiles currently other than SCUD

Forget about PAC. There are THAAD and SM-3.

 

[DesiGuy]

US is stronger than china for now.

 

[gambit]

Any long range modern SAMs use SARH configuration, so what is so special about PAC? Who argued that radar is not being able to track the missile? Chinaowns was talking about the boosting phase of the missile which radar of PAC is not able to track anyways since maximum range of AN/MPQ-65 Radar for RCS of 3 m^2 is only 100km.

That is why I do not take your guys' arguments seriously when you cannot even get the facts straight. The Patriot is for terminal defense. It cannot detect any boost phase. Its radar may be able to detect the mid course phase of the flight, but not the boost phase. The bi-static configuration is for when the warhead is on the descent, not when the missile itself just left the launch pad. You guys are totally out in the proverbial left field.

 

[chauism]

That is why I do not take your guys' arguments seriously when you cannot even get the facts straight. The Patriot is for terminal defense. It cannot detect any boost phase. Its radar may be able to detect the mid course phase of the flight, but not the boost phase. The bi-static configuration is for when the warhead is on the descent, not when the missile itself just left the launch pad. You guys are totally out in the proverbial left field.

You are the one who is trying to use the irrelevant bi-static configuration which every long range SAM has to confuse others and counter Chinaowns arguement of "The patriot can only begin tracking the ballistic missile after it has entered into the range of the radar."

detection and tracking is done by using the doppler effect and by recording the drop in strength of the radar wave. Henceforth a radar cannot detect beyond a certain range because the returning radiation will be too weak.

The patriot can only begin tracking the ballistic missile after it has entered into the range of the radar.

The interceptor and the platform launch radar form a bi-static configuration. The platform radar has superior effective radar power and therefore will produce target resolutions for the interceptor. If you do not understand this 'bi-static' configuration then you are out of your league here.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

That is why I do not take your guys' arguments seriously when you cannot even get the facts straight. The Patriot is for terminal defense. It cannot detect any boost phase. Its radar may be able to detect the mid course phase of the flight, but not the boost phase. The bi-static configuration is for when the warhead is on the descent, not when the missile itself just left the launch pad. You guys are totally out in the proverbial left field.

From this video it is clear at 2.47 that the ICBM was tracked during the BOOSTING PHASE

It will not work against a missile like the dong feng that launches from a far distance

 

[Thomas]

From this video it is clear at 2.47 that the ICBM was tracked during the BOOSTING PHASE

It will not work against a missile like the dong feng that launches from a far distance

YouTube - ‪Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense - FTM 04-1‬‎

Don't confuse the SM-3 with the SM-2. They both have different capabilities.

Also There is much more to an Aegis system then meets the eye. Especially in it's ability to network missile tracking data from, aircraft, satellites, ground sensors, and ship radar. It can track any missile from it's launch till it comes into range of the SM-2/3. In other words the launch could be 2000 miles away and the Aegis BMD will be able to see it and start calculating a firing solution.



Demonstrations Show Satellites Extend Range of DoD Sensor Network Technology

Demonstrations Show Satellites Extend Range of DoD Sensor Network Technology

"The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory (APL) in Laurel, Md., successfully concluded the last of three proof-of-concept demonstrations showing that satellites extend the U.S. Navy's Cooperative Engagement Capability system's range for anti-aircraft warfare and ballistic missile defense applications. The tests were conducted jointly by APL and Lockheed Martin Space Systems Company, Sunnyvale, Calif., under the CEC space applications project funded by the Missile Defense Agency and managed by Naval Sea Systems Command.

The APL-conceived CEC system enhances a battle group's war-fighting capability by fusing measurements from a network of ship-, aircraft- and land-based sensor systems into a highly accurate and continuous air picture available to all ships and aircraft within the group. CEC significantly extends the range of countering air and missile threats, thus providing more time to engage difficult threat aircraft and cruise missiles."

 

[Thomas]

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL33745.pdf

 

[below_freezing]

Don't confuse the SM-3 with the SM-2. They both have different capabilities.

Also There is much more to an Aegis system then meets the eye. Especially in it's ability to network missile tracking data from, aircraft, satellites, ground sensors, and ship radar. It can track any missile from it's launch till it comes into range of the SM-2/3. In other words the launch could be 2000 miles away and the Aegis BMD will be able to see it and start calculating a firing solution.



Demonstrations Show Satellites Extend Range of DoD Sensor Network Technology

Demonstrations Show Satellites Extend Range of DoD Sensor Network Technology

"The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory (APL) in Laurel, Md., successfully concluded the last of three proof-of-concept demonstrations showing that satellites extend the U.S. Navy's Cooperative Engagement Capability system's range for anti-aircraft warfare and ballistic missile defense applications. The tests were conducted jointly by APL and Lockheed Martin Space Systems Company, Sunnyvale, Calif., under the CEC space applications project funded by the Missile Defense Agency and managed by Naval Sea Systems Command.

The APL-conceived CEC system enhances a battle group's war-fighting capability by fusing measurements from a network of ship-, aircraft- and land-based sensor systems into a highly accurate and continuous air picture available to all ships and aircraft within the group. CEC significantly extends the range of countering air and missile threats, thus providing more time to engage difficult threat aircraft and cruise missiles."

Great plan, except that the sattelite (though i doubt that sattelite IR can provide a sufficiently high resolution for a sufficient amount of time, and sattelite radar is out of question due to low resolution) has to be able to actually see the missile being launched, so it has to be over the horizon, and that data links are secure, and that it even matters when the missile begins randomly moving due to a tiny bump on the warhead surface exposed during reentry or a rolling internal weight.

In fact I think that you can have a US soldier ride with the missile, with a cell phone, and the missile will still not be shot down.

 

[Thomas]

Great plan, except that the sattelite (though i doubt that sattelite IR can provide a sufficiently high resolution for a sufficient amount of time, and sattelite radar is out of question due to low resolution) has to be able to actually see the missile being launched, so it has to be over the horizon, and that data links are secure, and that it even matters when the missile begins randomly moving due to a tiny bump on the warhead surface exposed during reentry or a rolling internal weight.

In fact I think that you can have a US soldier ride with the missile, with a cell phone, and the missile will still not be shot down.

Think whatever is most convenient for you. It still doesn't nullify the fact that As a result of the cold war the U.S. has excelled in the area of Early Warning satellite/radars. I suggest you study more on the U.S. capability in this area. Including it's ability to incorporate data fusion.

Missile Defense Infrared Sensors

http://www.marshall.org/pdf/materials/259.pdf

http://www.mda.mil/global/documents/pdf/bmds_briefing10b.pdf

http://www.darpa.mil/tto/programs/falcon/files/BMDS_Fact_Sheet.pdf

PAVE PAWS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


AEGIS BMD Weapon System Tracks Advanced Separating Ballistic Missiles

"The MDA and the U.S. Navy are jointly developing Aegis BMD as part of the Ballistic Missile Defense System. Ultimately 15 Aegis destroyers and three Aegis cruisers will be outfitted with the capability to conduct Long Range Surveillance and Tracking (LRS&T) and engagement of short and medium range ballistic missile threats using the Aegis BMD Weapon System and the Standard Missile-3 (SM-3). To date, 10 Aegis destroyers have been upgraded with the LRS&T capability and are certified for tactical deployment."

 

[gambit]

You are the one who is trying to use the irrelevant bi-static configuration which every long range SAM has to confuse others and counter Chinaowns arguement of "The patriot can only begin tracking the ballistic missile after it has entered into the range of the radar."

That was an explanation of how terminal defense works as far as sensor goes. The guy consistently criticizes terminal defense by dragging in boost phase detection. He did not exercise 'due diligence' at basic research BEFORE he make assertions and criticizes something in an area he has no experience and righteously called himself a 'real' engineer.

 

[gambit]

Great plan, except that the sattelite (though i doubt that sattelite IR can provide a sufficiently high resolution for a sufficient amount of time, and sattelite radar is out of question due to low resolution) has to be able to actually see the missile being launched, so it has to be over the horizon, and that data links are secure, and that it even matters when the missile begins randomly moving due to a tiny bump on the warhead surface exposed during reentry or a rolling internal weight.

In fact I think that you can have a US soldier ride with the missile, with a cell phone, and the missile will still not be shot down.

Immersed bolometers...

Optics InfoBase - Miniature Optically Immersed Thermistor Bolometer Arrays

Immersed thermistor bolometers have been in use since 1958 as sensors for ir horizon scanners employed in attitude control of earth-orbiting vehicles.1 These detectors usually use a single small thermistor flake optically immersed in an antireflection coated pure germanium or silicon hemisphere or hyperhemisphere.2 Studies of the earth’s atmospheric horizon from orbiting vehicles indicate that the most useful radiant power lies in the carbon dioxide spectrum near 15 µ and in the rotational water bands of atmospheric moisture in the spectrum beyond 20 µ.3 These atmospheric constituents produce high ir optical density and hence provide small angle horizon resolution. Carbon dioxide has the additional advantage, by being uniformly distributed in the atmosphere, of providing a stable horizon. The purpose of this paper is to describe briefly two types of five-element linear arrays of thermistor flakes optically immersed in germanium and silicon lenses (Fig. 1). These detecrs were designed for an advanced horizon definition study program at NASA—Langley Research Center.4 Germanium immersion is employed for best detectivity in the carbon dioxide spectrum from 14 µ to 16 µ and silicon for the spectrum beyond 20 µ.

...Are sensitive enough to detect IR contrasts in horizon focus to provide REAL TIME satellite attitude controls for decades. But here you are telling the world that a flame plume from an ascending missile cannot provide sufficient IR contrasts for detection and tracking.

 

[chauism]

That was an explanation of how terminal defense works as far as sensor goes. The guy consistently criticizes terminal defense by dragging in boost phase detection. He did not exercise 'due diligence' at basic research BEFORE he make assertions and criticizes something in an area he has no experience and righteously called himself a 'real' engineer.

It is not hard to be able to track a ballistic missile after it has been launched. The problem is that you can not determine the trajectory of the missiles to the destination before it finishes the boosting phase.

A lot of long range radars such as OTH radar are capable of track ballistic missile from range in the magnitude of thousands of kilometers. However you need a lock on from the fire-control radar which emit a high pulse-repetition frequency, a very narrow pulse- narrow, circular beam width, and a very narrow beamwidth radio waves to provide a firing solution for the intercept missile to engage the incoming target. Due to the nature of fire-control radar, its operation range is normal much shorter.

PAR is to address this concern, but still the rang is very limited.

 

[gambit]

It is not hard to be able to track a ballistic missile after it has been launched. The problem is that you can not determine the trajectory of the missiles to the destination before it finishes the boosting phase.

Utter BS...As usual...May be China cannot but certainly we can. In ballistic mechanics, there is something called the 'gravity turn'...

Gravity turn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The pitch over maneuver consists of the rocket gimbaling its engine slightly to direct some of its thrust to one side. This force creates a net torque on the ship, turning it so that it no longer points vertically. The pitch over angle varies with the launch vehicle and is included in the rocket's initial guidance system,[1] for some vehicles it is only a few degrees while other vehicles use relatively large angles (a few tens of degrees). After the pitch over is complete the engines are reset to point straight down the axis of the rocket again. This small steering maneuver is the only time during an ideal gravity turn ascent that thrust must be used for purposes of steering. This pitch over maneuver serves two purposes. First, it turns the rocket slightly so that its flight path is no longer vertical, and second, it places the rocket on the correct heading for its ascent to orbit. After the pitch over the rocket's angle of attack is adjusted to zero for the remainder of its climb to orbit. This zeroing of the angle of attack reduces lateral aerodynamic loads and produces negligible lift force during the ascent.

The moment the vehicle is in a gravity turn, it cannot maneuver for course correction, or it should not maneuver if it is to retain structural integrity. The boost phase include this gravity turn maneuver. Once the missile is detected and tracked while in this turn, its flight path can be estimated straight up to orbit.

A lot of long range radars such as OTH radar are capable of track ballistic missile from range in the magnitude of thousands of kilometers. However you need a lock on from the fire-control radar which emit a narrow, intense beam of radio waves to provide a firing solution for the intercept missile to engage the incoming target. Due to the nature of fire-control radar, its operation range is normal much shorter.

PAR is to address this concern, but still the rang is very limited.

That is why we have layers and multiplicity of sensors.

 

[chauism]

Utter BS...As usual...May be China cannot but certainly we can. In ballistic mechanics, there is something called the 'gravity turn'...

Gravity turn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Great, you might want to check your wiki source to see what gravity turn is mainly used for.

A gravity turn or zero-lift turn is a maneuver (see trajectory optimization) used in launching a spacecraft into, or descending from, an orbit around a celestial body such as a planet or a moon.

From your own quote:

After the pitch over is complete the engines are reset to point straight down the axis of the rocket again. This small steering maneuver is the only time during an ideal gravity turn ascent that thrust must be used for purposes of steering.

Meaning thrust still can be used for steering the missile, just not for the maximum range.

Even if the missile enters the gravity turn and stay with its course, the trajectory of the missile still need to be determined after the rocket burns out(end of the boost phase), because only after the rocket burns out, the missile enters its mid-course phase coasting through space before reentering the atmosphere in a predictable parabola manner. Here again from your own wiki source.

After the pitch over, the rocket's flight path is no longer completely vertical so gravity acts to turn the flight path back towards the ground. If the rocket were not producing thrust the flight path would be a simple parabola like a thrown ball, leveling off and then falling back to the ground. The rocket is producing thrust though, and rather than leveling off and then descending again, by the time the rocket levels off it has gained sufficient altitude and velocity to place it in a stable orbit.

If the rocket is a multi-stage system where stages fire sequentially, the rocket's ascent burn may not be continuous. Obviously some time must be allowed for stage separation and engine ignition between each successive stage, but some rocket designs call for extra free-flight time between stages. This is particularly useful in very high thrust rockets where if the engines were fired continuously the rocket would run out of fuel before leveling off and reaching a stable orbit above the atmosphere.[2] The technique is also useful when launching from a planet with a thick atmosphere, such as the Earth. Since gravity turns the flight path during free flight the rocket can use a smaller initial pitch over angle, giving it higher vertical velocity, and taking it out of the atmosphere more quickly. This reduces both aerodynamic drag as well as aerodynamic stress during launch. Then later during the flight the rocket coasts between stage firings allowing it to level off above the atmosphere so when the engine fires again, at zero angle of attack, the thrust accelerates the ship horizontally, inserting it into orbit.

With multi-stage missiles which most ballistic missiles are, the matter is more complicated.

Also there is something called maneuverable reentry vehicle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuverable_reentry_vehicle

The moment the vehicle is in a gravity turn, it cannot maneuver for course correction, or it should not maneuver if it is to retain structural integrity. The boost phase include this gravity turn maneuver. Once the missile is detected and tracked while in this turn, its flight path can be estimated straight up to orbit.

That is derived from your "Vietnamese rocket science"???

You really shouldn't be throwing something you don't fully understand to pretend that you are more experienced in this field.

 

[mike05]

That is derived from your "Vietnamese rocket science"???

You really shouldn't be throwing something you don't fully understand to pretend that you are more experienced in this field.

Mate I don't why you want to entertain a guy who refers back to your analysis time and again as "utter bs". Mutual respect is definitely lacking here from my point of view, hats off for being so patient though.