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Chinese Aircraft Carrier Liaoning vs INS Vikramaditya

SU-33 is too large to be placed on a 45000 tonne carrier. J-15 is not a problem for the nearly 70,000 tonne Chinese aircraft carrier.

Indian Navy thought better to have 24 Mig-29K than 16 Su-33.

That was an advantage as well, but anyways believe what you want. Ask yourself why mig29k has bigger wings, and why different fighters have different take off distance inspite of similar twr. Or just visit other defence forums and you will find people talking about it. As I said, this is a common knowledge. Only people at PDF are oblivious to it. Cheers.

@UKBengali this might interest you.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnavai/articles/20080404.aspx?
comments=Y#startofcomments


Last paragraph of article says mig 29k can carry over 5 tonnes of weapons. external stores capacity at mtow will be 5.5 tonnes. Judge yourself.
 
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An aircraft carrier in the end of the day is about launching recovering and servicing aircrafts for battle. Both the Liaoning and the Vikramaditya have drawbacks in their design. But despite the flaws of the Liaoning it can do all three things at the same time. Letting aircrafts land, take off and allow aircrafts to come up from the hangar deck below the flight deck all at once. Because of the Vikramaditya's unique deck layout, small size and lacking key equipment like jet blast deflectors it can only do one thing at a time. That makes Liaoning many times more efficient than the Vikramaditya.
 
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SU-33 is too large to be placed on a 45000 tonne carrier. J-15 is not a problem for the nearly 70,000 tonne Chinese aircraft carrier.

Indian Navy thought better to have 24 Mig-29K than 16 Su-33.

Chinese Media Takes Aim at J-15 Fighter | Defense News | defensenews.com
Despite improvements, Kashin wonders why the Chinese bothered with the Su-33 given the fact that Russia gave up on it. Weight problems and other issues forced the Russians to develop the MiG-29K, which has better power-to-weight ratio and can carry more weapons.
 
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Here is some more about j-15 from IDRW website.


Chinese aircraft carrier has major weaknesses: China Youth Daily
Published December 8, 2013 | By admin
SOURCE: CNA



By sending its first aircraft carrier to the South China Sea, Beijing aims at more effective control over disputed islands in the region, but the vessel has five major weaknesses that make it unable to match up against US carriers, according to a Nov. 6 report in a Chinese state-run newspaper.

The China Youth Daily said that training in the South China Sea, where the Liaoning aircraft carrier headed for the first time Nov. 26, will allow it and other vessels to get more familiar with the maritime environment that is expected to become their main area of operation, but it will be some time before the Liaoning is combat-ready due to five major weaknesses, the official newspaper of the Communist Youth League of China said, listing them in order.

First, the Liaoning relies on Russian technology that limits the ship’s range and usefulness in open sea; Secondly, the carrier cannot match the capabilities of US aircraft carriers, which can launch unmanned fighters with a range of up to 200 nautical miles; The electronics and weapons systems of the Liaoning and its J-15 fighter jets are far inferior to American carriers and their F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets, and the US carriers also boast E-2 Hawkeye early warning aircraft with a flying altitude and range that outclasses the Liaoning’s Kamov KA-31 helicopter; Lastly, the paper said that China does not yet have a large-size battle group centered around the Liaoning, and the ability of its warships to take part in coordinated fighting is not yet mature.
 
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That was an advantage as well, but anyways believe what you want. Ask yourself why mig29k has bigger wings, and why different fighters have different take off distance inspite of similar twr. Or just visit other defence forums and you will find people talking about it. As I said, this is a common knowledge. Only people at PDF are oblivious to it. Cheers.

@UKBengali this might interest you.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnavai/articles/20080404.aspx?
comments=Y#startofcomments


Last paragraph of article says mig 29k can carry over 5 tonnes of weapons. external stores capacity at mtow will be 5.5 tonnes. Judge yourself.



It does not say from the aircraft-carrier though. Just that the aircraft can.

I read in another forum that the Mig-29K has a MTOW of 48,000lbs from standard runway and 42,000lbs from a ski-jump, which would mean a STOBAR carrier. This is what I am more inclined to believe.

Anyway, I am sure the Indian Navy will put this question to rest sooner rather than later.
 
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It does not say from the aircraft-carrier though. Just that the aircraft can.

I read in another forum that the Mig-29K has a MTOW of 48,000lbs from standard runway and 42,000lbs from a ski-jump, which would mean a STOBAR carrier. This is what I am more inclined to believe.

Anyway, I am sure the Indian Navy will put this question to rest sooner rather than later.

You won't be getting anything out of the navy. Anyways people believe different things. There is also a video in russian language present on aviationist, and its caption says, mig29k fully armed and loaded. Anyways, from what I know take of mtow capability of mig29k was demonstrated two decades ago itself. Although there are no sources at present to confirm it. Whatever, I am out of this forum. Enjoy your stay.
 
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mig 29k can take off from at mtow from STOBAR carrier. It was already proven two decades ago and was recently proven during the sea trials of Vikramaditya as well. You need to update yourself.

How, when it never was used with full or the heaviest load so far?

Btw, if you post sources, you should at least check it it's a reliable one and what it actually says.

The "expert" in your article is responsible for the delivery of the carrier, not for the fighters, nor has he anything to do with Mikoyan at all. He even states clearly, that a Mig took off from a shore base with wing fuel tanks, anti ship missiles and SR missiles, which is not a fully loaded config (2 x wingstations for BVR missiles and the centerline station with a fuel tank are free), nor even close to the MTOW.
Even if we would say those anti ship missiles would be real once and not just mock ups for test flights and that the external fuel tanks would be fully loaded, that would be a load of roughly 3000Kg only:

2 x wing fuel tank = 1840Kg
2 x K35 = 1040Kg
2 x R73 = 210Kg
=> 3090Kg

The heaviest load on the other side would be:

1 x centerline fuel tank = 1720Kg
2 x wing fuel tank = 1840Kg
2 x K31 = 1220Kg
2 x R77 = 350Kg
2 x R73 = 210Kg
=> 5340Kg (without the weight of the fuel tanks or pylons)


Most importantly though, even he says that they NOW are working to show the same take off capability from the carrier, which means they are qualifying the Mig to take off with that load the roughly 3t load. We have seen videos of those take offs too and afaik only from the long take off position, which also shows that the take off distance will play an important role for higher loads too.

Also even if the Mig could take off with full load, the ski jump take off burns a lot of fuel, which means it would need to be refuelled after take off anyway, to achieve any useful range or endurance, so no matter which fighter we are talking about, they face the same problems on STOBAR carriers and why CATOBAR carriers are prefered by IN for the future.
 
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How come India like to compare with others on everything. For AC, its comparing with China. For LCA, its comparing with Gripen. For its mars mission, its comparing with the US mission. India need to be proud of its own accomplishments by itself instead of just comparing with everyone else.
 
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China Deploys Aircraft Carrier to Disputed South China Sea
点击查看本文中文版
By JAVIER C. HERNÁNDEZDEC. 27, 2016


Photo
28China-master768.jpg


Fighter jets on the deck of China’s Liaoning aircraft carrier during military drills in the Bohai Sea, off China’s northeast coast, this month. Credit Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
BEIJING — The Chinese military, in a move analysts described as a challenge to President-elect Donald J. Trump’s strident criticism of China, has deployed an aircraft carrier to patrol the contested South China Sea, officials said on Tuesday.

The ship, which is known as the Liaoning and is China’s first and only aircraft carrier, was spotted leading five other Chinese warships this week in patrols near the coasts of Taiwan and Japan. China claims the South China Sea as its own despite objections from neighboring countries and the United States.

Chinese military experts called the deployment of the Liaoning a long-overdue challenge to American military dominance in the Pacific. Several said the move appeared aimed at testing Mr. Trump, who has antagonized Beijing with acerbic words and actions on issues like Taiwan, trade and North Korea.

“The message is: ‘If you test our bottom line, we’ll play that game too,’” said Ni Lexiong, a naval expert at Shanghai University of Political Science and Law.

Continue reading the main story


The decision by Beijing to deploy the carrier group seemed likely to complicate an increasingly fractious relationship between China and the United States.

Nowhere are those tensions more on display than in the South China Sea, where American forces have resisted China’s efforts to build artificial islands and military outposts as part of its efforts to assert greater control over the sea, a major commercial waterway.

In the weeks since Mr. Trump’s election, Beijing has increased pressure on the United States, placing weapons on disputed islands and seizing an underwater United States Navy drone from international waters.

Chinese officials appear to be emboldened by Mr. Trump’s pledge to focus on domestic issues and his ambivalence toward the One China principle, an understanding between the United States and China that has underpinned relations for decades.

“The mission is to signal to neighbors that Beijing will set the security table in East Asian waters, and that not even President Donald Trump can reverse that trend,” Patrick M. Cronin, a senior director at the Center for a New American Security, a Washington think tank, said in an email.

Chinese officials played down the significance of the Liaoning’s journey, saying the ships were taking part in annual training exercises.

“The Liaoning aircraft carrier is entitled to the freedom of navigation and overflight under international law,” Hua Chunying, a spokeswoman for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, said at a news conference on Monday. “We hope that all parties will respect this.”

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A Chinese H-6K bomber patrolling the islands and reefs of the South China Sea. Credit Liu Rui/Xinhua, via Associated Press
Officials in Taiwan and Japan said that the warships were spotted patrolling their coasts over the past several days. Taiwanese officials said the Liaoning came within 90 nautical miles of the southern tip of the island before entering the South China Sea. Japanese officials said the ships were seen near the shores of Okinawa, in the Pacific Ocean.

Many people in China cheered the deployment of the Liaoning, a discarded vessel bought from Ukraine in 1998 and refurbished by the Chinese Navy.

While the Liaoning lacks the capabilities of its American counterparts, it is a symbol of national pride for the government, which is in the midst of an effort to vastly upgrade its military capacity to meet its ambition of projecting strength far from Beijing. Officials have announced plans for a second aircraft carrier and other high-tech weapons.

Some commentators in China seized the moment to call on officials to send the Liaoning closer to American shores.

“Aircraft carriers are strategic tools which should be used to show China’s strength to the world and shape the outside world’s attitude toward China,” an editorial in Global Times, a state-run newspaper that often adopts a nationalistic tone, said on Sunday. “As China’s only aircraft carrier fleet now, it should have the ability and courage to sail further.”

The Department of Defense declined to directly address China’s movements in the South China Sea.

“We continue to observe a range of ongoing Chinese military activity in the region,” Cmdr. Gary Ross, a spokesman for the Pentagon, said in a statement on Tuesday. “The United States recognizes the rights, freedoms and lawful uses of the sea and airspace guaranteed to all countries in accordance with international law.”

In Taiwan, officials called for caution. Many residents worry that China is seeking to punish Taiwan for Mr. Trump’s actions. He surprised officials in Beijing when he took a call from President Tsai Ing-wen of Taiwan, breaking from decades of diplomatic practice. More recently, he suggested he might abandon the One China principle, prompting sharp rebukes from Beijing.

In a speech on Tuesday, Taiwan’s defense minister, Feng Shih-kuan, spoke about the dangers facing the island and urged more training for Taiwanese soldiers. “The threat of our enemies is growing day by day,” he said, according to Reuters.

As China looks to expand its power in the South China Sea, some experts argue that it risks antagonizing nearby countries, potentially pushing them to form stronger alliances with the United States.

“As China’s military power grows, the fear is that so, too, will its appetite for regional hegemony,” said Mr. Cronin of the Center for a New American Security. “Thus China’s coercion will impose yet new costs on Beijing.”

Still, others note China’s ability to win allies in the region through its economic might, and they point to the shifting allegiances of countries like the Philippines, an American ally that has warmed up to Beijing in recent months.

Xu Guangyu, a retired major general in the People’s Liberation Army, said China’s decision to deploy aircraft carriers in faraway waters and to expand its military were natural developments for a country of China’s stature.

“People in other countries should rest assured that China will not interfere in other country’s affairs like the U.S.,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/27/world/asia/south-china-sea-trump.html?_r=0


Now it is deployed into the conflict area.
Any comment? :)

Here is some more about j-15 from IDRW website.


Chinese aircraft carrier has major weaknesses: China Youth Daily
Published December 8, 2013 | By admin
SOURCE: CNA



By sending its first aircraft carrier to the South China Sea, Beijing aims at more effective control over disputed islands in the region, but the vessel has five major weaknesses that make it unable to match up against US carriers, according to a Nov. 6 report in a Chinese state-run newspaper.

The China Youth Daily said that training in the South China Sea, where the Liaoning aircraft carrier headed for the first time Nov. 26, will allow it and other vessels to get more familiar with the maritime environment that is expected to become their main area of operation, but it will be some time before the Liaoning is combat-ready due to five major weaknesses, the official newspaper of the Communist Youth League of China said, listing them in order.

First, the Liaoning relies on Russian technology that limits the ship’s range and usefulness in open sea; Secondly, the carrier cannot match the capabilities of US aircraft carriers, which can launch unmanned fighters with a range of up to 200 nautical miles; The electronics and weapons systems of the Liaoning and its J-15 fighter jets are far inferior to American carriers and their F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets, and the US carriers also boast E-2 Hawkeye early warning aircraft with a flying altitude and range that outclasses the Liaoning’s Kamov KA-31 helicopter; Lastly, the paper said that China does not yet have a large-size battle group centered around the Liaoning, and the ability of its warships to take part in coordinated fighting is not yet mature.


Of course Liaoning is no match US supercarrier.

But when compared to INS Vikramaditya, smart people knows the answer :)


According to the analysis of military experts, since the J-15 is newly-developed, its electronic equipment is very likely to be one generation ahead of the J-11, and is definitely far superior to the Su-33, which is equipped with lagging inverse Cassegrain antenna. It is very likely that the J-15 carries electronic equipment that meets the standards of a fifth generation fighter, and reaches the level of the U.S. F/A-18E/F in this respect.

In terms of its performance compared to other carrier-based aircraft in service around the world, Yin Zhuo said that the J-15 capabilities are high. For instance, it reaches a similar level to the U.S. F/A-18C/D "Super Hornet". While overall it is slightly inferior to the F/A-18E/F, it has better performance in air combat. Its ability to attack land and sea-based targets is lower than the F/A-18E/F, but it is at least equal to, and perhaps slightly better than, India's Mig-29K.
http://en.people.cn/90786/8395630.html
 
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Chinese AC liaoning is just a training vessel. It is a great training vessel.
 
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I think that soon Indians will find such a comparison embarrassing to themselves. Liaoning is just a training ship for PLAN. We’ll launch a real carrier next year, and nuclear-powered carriers with EM catapults in 5 years time. Don‘t you guys feel shamed by always mentioning you operated carriers from stone age?You would still operate backward carriers after PLAN inducts 100000ton super carriers in ten years time. You never advance as fast as mouthpiece... feel sorry for you guys!
 
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