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Chinese Aero Engine information thread

Something related to the CNC software for the WS-15 on the public tender ... from November 2019
Screen Shot 2020-06-26 at 6.42.25 PM.png

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/eF0OQXbQBcKTI8n0B4ec2w
 
In the case of the J-20 pictured below, the engine is the WS-10C variant, a non-thrust vectoring model. This came as a surprise to some observers who expected a TVC-capable WS-10 to be installed on the aircraft, but it may be that full TVC integration with the aircraft flight controls just isn't ready yet. Alternately, the long postulated "stealth interceptor" aka "AWACS killer" role of the J-20 may not need TVC.
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Excellent article but incorrect to suggest that WS-10B will be put in J-35 fighter - it is likely to be the WS-19 in development.
A very stupid article ...
 
Word on the street on CD is that WS-10 has finally met its design goals in terms of performance and service life.
 
Word on the street on CD is that WS-10 has finally met its design goals in terms of performance and service life.
Do you have a link to the specific thread?
 
An interesting read with a lot of quotes from our very own @Deino from last year
Analysis
ANALYSIS: The secret world of Chinese fighter engines
By Greg Waldron
16 July 2019

“A riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma,” is how Winston Churchill famously described Russia in 1939. The adage applies well, perhaps better, to Beijing’s secretive efforts to develop military engines for its future fleet of advanced fighters. While there can be no dispute that engines of all types are a major priority for Beijing, concrete news on progress is painfully hard to come by.

Engine capability and reliability are – and always have been – perhaps the single most important technical element in the success or failure of a combat aircraft. Advanced radars, missiles, an ability to network with other platforms, and low-observable technology count for little if a pilot cannot, owing to a lack of a capable engine, bring these capabilities to bear in combat. More broadly, shorter times between an engine’s major overhauls have a profound impact on the flight hours available for pilots to hone skills.

It has become somewhat of a cliché in defence circles that China struggles with engines. In chat rooms about the topic – where concrete evidence can be thin at best – commentators who propagate this contention are regularly set upon by those who argue, also without evidence, that China is making tremendous strides. In its annual report about Chinese military developments in May 2019, the US Department of Defence stated that China continues to struggle in two areas – radars and engines. It gave no indication about how it arrived at this view.

The need for better fighter engines, however, is abundantly clear. In recent years much has been made of the Chengdu J-20, touted as China’s first “fifth generation” fighter. Four examples appeared in the flying display at Airshow China in November 2018, greeted with rapture by air show crowds. The type is often compared to the Lockheed Martin F-22 or F-35, both of which have been mass produced and which feature mature engines.

What is consistently downplayed is that most of the small number of J-20s produced are probably powered by a Russian power plant, an upgraded version of the Saturn AL-31 that powers the Sukhoi Su-35. The status of the type’s ultimate engine, the developmental Xian Aero Engine WS-15 Emei, is far from clear. Estimates suggest that the WS-15’s maximum thrust will be 18.4t (180kN), potentially giving the J-20 genuine “fifth generation” performance, including supercruise – the ability to travel at supersonic speeds without engaging the afterburner. The lack of positive news – or any news whatsoever – could be interpreted as an admission by Beijing that it is still struggling with this engine. Complicating things is that occasionally Chinese aircraft experts take to state media to claim things are going well.

As the future powerplant of Beijing’s flagship fighter, the WS-15 is the centrepiece of a family of engines, developed by a universe of companies grouped under the Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC). The family includes the Shenyang WS-10 Taihang that powers Beijing’s fleet of J-11Bs (early versions of the J-11, a local copy of the Su-27, are powered by a version of the AL-31). The WS-10 will also eventually power the J-15 naval fighter, some examples of the J-20 and future J-10Cs. In addition, there is the WS-13 that will, hopefully, one day power locally produced UCAVs such as the AVIC Dark Sword, and the WS-19 that could one day power the FC-31. The WS-13 is also seen as potential interim powerplant for the developmental AVIC FC-31 Gyrfalcon, now powered by a pair of Klimov RD-93s.

Andreas Rupprecht is the author of Modern Chinese Warplanes, an authoritative guide to mainland air power, and a keen observer of Chinese military engine developments. He notes that stricter Internet security rules in China mean that far less news about Chinese engines leaks out. This leaves observers with a narrow, sanitised window provided by state media.

Rupprecht believes that while Beijing is definitely behind the West in engine technology, the industry has made great strides in recent years owing to large investment flows. He points to the relative success of the WS-10 Taihang family, which powers the majority of the Chinese Sukhoi Su-27-derived fleet, namely the J-11B and J-16. From a testing perspective, the engine has also been found on several J-10Bs and J-20As. He views the powerplant as emblematic of China’s aerospace sector.

“AVIC has invested a lot and initiated tremendous effort to improve quality control throughout the engine’s production chain since 2011,” he says. “To claim the WS-10 engine today is still unreliable is, in my view, unjustified, maybe even ridiculous. The number of operational Taihangs alone says a lot and one must consider that for years no Chinese-built [Su-27 derivative], with the exception of the J-15s, uses a Russian engine anymore.”

Some sense of Beijing’s confidence in the programme came at Zhuhai in 2018, where a surprise flying display was put on by a WS-10-powered J-10B equipped with thrust vectoring control (TVC) engine. TVC added a whole new dimension to the aircraft’s manoeuvrability. The short display was reminiscent of flying displays performed by other fighters with TVC, such as the Su-35 and F-22. Trailing pink smoke, the J-10B TVC’s routine included tight vertical loops, a slow high angle of attack roll, a cobra manoeuvre and the falling leaf. It was an iconic moment in the history of indigenous Chinese fighter engines.

Rupprecht’s view on the secrecy shrouding Chinese engine development in recent years is shared by Douglas Royce, analyst of aircraft and aviation gas turbines at Forecast International. “The Chinese government isn't transparent, and as far as I can tell, the regional media outlets don't know much more than anyone else,” he says.

He adds, however, that it is of paramount importance for Beijing to master not just engine technology, but the means of production.

“As long as they have to depend on Russian or stolen American/European technology to power fighter aircraft, their ability to build and maintain their fighters in operational status is under threat,” he says. “So if they are to become the military equals of outside forces, they have to be able to create engines. And engines are the real limiting factor in indigenous fighter development. There are only a few companies worldwide who have the ability to design and build an all-new, state-of-the-art engine.”

Several fighter programmes illustrate the theme of indigenous fighters with foreign engines. The Saab Gripen, Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) T-50, Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas, are all powered by a General Electric engine. KAI’s planned KFX will also be powered by the F414, as will New Delhi’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Beijing is pouring great resources into its own development work, but is not above stealing technology. It is understood that the core of the WS-10 is based on CFM International CFM56 technology that China obtained in the 1980s. In October 2018, an alleged Chinese intelligence officer was extradited to the USA to face criminal charges related to a scheme to steal trade secrets from leading US aviation companies, including GE Aviation. Court documents suggested the alleged theft targeted technology related to engine fan blades and "containment structures".

The requirement for Beijing to steal technology was highlighted as early as 2011 in a report from the Washington DC-based Institute for National Strategic Studies entitled Buy, Build, or Steal: China's Quest for Advanced Military Aviation Technologies. The report concluded that China would find it increasingly difficult to develop highly advanced aerospace technologies, and its traditional partner Russia is ever more wary of sharing technology owing to fear of intellectual property theft. This will force China to rely increasingly on espionage to obtain advanced capabilities.

Observers will also be watching Chinese firm Skyrizon’s effort to buy a majority stake in Ukrainian engine manufacturer Motor Sich, which produces turbofans and turboshafts. The potential deal is reportedly under review by the Ukrainian government, and is opposed by Washington DC. In May, the Washington Post reported that the company, which formerly relied on Russian aerospace work, sees few opportunities for its future outside of China.

Rupprecht adds that Beijing’s ultimate goal is to be completely “self-reliant in every aspect” of engine development and manufacturing.

“A good number of J-10s and J-11As, as well as their Xian Y-20s and H-6Ks, depend on Russian engines,” he says. “This is unacceptable for the longer term, especially if the political climate with Moscow were to change. Therefore they are placing great effort to develop new engines in different classes and establish a broad industrial base.”

Tokyo, New Delhi power up

The Asia-Pacific region's other great powers, Japan and India, also see the importance of advanced engine capabilities.

Tokyo was developing jet engines as long ago as the Second World War. A locally developed high-bypass-ratio turbofan, the IHI F7, powers the Kawasaki P-1 maritime patrol aircraft.

In June 2018, IHI delivered the experimental XF9-1 engine, which can produce 33,000lb-thrust (147kN) with afterburner, for laboratory research work. If Tokyo decides to advance its Future Fighter programme to replace the Mitsubishi F-2, the new twin-engined stealth fighter could be powered by descendants of the XF9-1.

Another Japanese engine, the IHI XF5-1, powered Tokyo's X-2 technology demonstrator.

New Delhi's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) developed the GTX-35VS Kaveri engine for the Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas fighter.

The Kaveri programme suffered numerous cost and technical issues, and was never installed on a Tejas, which instead uses the GE Aviation F404.

The Kaveri programme was abandoned for a period, but received a second chance in 2016 as the possible powerplant for New Delhi's planned Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft. Under offset agreements related to India's acquisition of 36 Dassault Rafale fighters, France's Snecma is helping to revive the programme.

Still, great uncertainty remains over Indian jet engine technology. A recent media report quoted T Mohan Rao, a former head of GTRE, as saying the nation's efforts in propulsion will fall behind, owing to bureaucratic indifference and a lack of funding. Moreover, the Indian Air Force is understood to be highly dubious about the Kaveri.

Source: FlightGlobal.com
 
Excerpt #1:

“As long as they have to depend on Russian or STOLEN American/European technology to power fighter aircraft, their ability to build and maintain their fighters in operational status is under threat,” Douglas Royce, analyst of aircraft and aviation gas turbines at Forecast International says.


Excerpt #2:

In October 2018, an alleged Chinese intelligence officer was extradited to the USA to face criminal charges related to a scheme to steal trade secrets from leading US aviation companies, including GE Aviation. Court documents suggested the alleged theft targeted technology related to engine fan blades and "containment structures".

Excerpt #3:

The REQUIREMENT for Beijing to STEAL technology was highlighted as early as 2011 in a report from the Washington DC-based Institute for National Strategic Studies entitled Buy, Build, or Steal: China's Quest for Advanced Military Aviation Technologies. The report concluded that China would find it increasingly difficult to develop highly advanced aerospace technologies, and its traditional partner Russia is ever more wary of sharing technology owing to fear of intellectual property theft. This will force China to rely increasingly on espionage to obtain advanced capabilities.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I will focus on those excerpts.
What is the remarkable substance from this article, basically the "cream" of this writing, is its heavy accusation on China stealing the Engine technologies from the West.

WHAT are these institution/organization? Funding? Owner, controller? … WHY did their words carry some weight!?

- Institute for National Strategic Studies
- Forecast International

So, what is the verdict of the litigation case mentioned in Excerpt #2?

Basically the author fired many heavy accusations on China, but only this one came with the "hard proof" -- so how was the case at the end???

Logically one needs to be very critical, what was, and how did the said legal case develop in the USA.

Does any one have the following up story of this bold, heavy accusation, typical of the many US publications with ease on accusations on other countries, as reflecting the state of that nation, in fabricating the many landmark cases in the history. I will start from the few landmark cases as they are still vivid in my memories, as well as affecting the fate of nations, the livelihoods of many tens of millions of people -- although the worldwide cases involved the US false flag operations are indeed very long:

• Saddam Hussein's WMD;
• Muammar Gaddafi genocided Libyan people;
• Bashar al-Assad smashed the Syrian baby in incubators as well as launched chemical warfare against the "Syrian rebels" incl. the report manipulations by the OPCW; or
• the USA invaded Afghanistan to free the people of Afghanistan from "whatever" but after more than a decade what do we witness in Afghanistan??? Better life for the people there?? Improved prosperity under the US occupation? Really?? Or are we witnessing the surge of Opium growing there after the US removed the Taliban rulers??? :D:P

How many more lies and deceptions do we need to convince ourselves of their integrity, trustworthiness and infallibility?

An interesting read with a lot of quotes from our very own @Deino from last year
Analysis
ANALYSIS: The secret world of Chinese fighter engines
By Greg Waldron
16 July 2019

“A riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma,” is how Winston Churchill famously described Russia in 1939. The adage applies well, perhaps better, to Beijing’s secretive efforts to develop military engines for its future fleet of advanced fighters. While there can be no dispute that engines of all types are a major priority for Beijing, concrete news on progress is painfully hard to come by.

Engine capability and reliability are – and always have been – perhaps the single most important technical element in the success or failure of a combat aircraft. Advanced radars, missiles, an ability to network with other platforms, and low-observable technology count for little if a pilot cannot, owing to a lack of a capable engine, bring these capabilities to bear in combat. More broadly, shorter times between an engine’s major overhauls have a profound impact on the flight hours available for pilots to hone skills.

It has become somewhat of a cliché in defence circles that China struggles with engines. In chat rooms about the topic – where concrete evidence can be thin at best – commentators who propagate this contention are regularly set upon by those who argue, also without evidence, that China is making tremendous strides. In its annual report about Chinese military developments in May 2019, the US Department of Defence stated that China continues to struggle in two areas – radars and engines. It gave no indication about how it arrived at this view.

The need for better fighter engines, however, is abundantly clear. In recent years much has been made of the Chengdu J-20, touted as China’s first “fifth generation” fighter. Four examples appeared in the flying display at Airshow China in November 2018, greeted with rapture by air show crowds. The type is often compared to the Lockheed Martin F-22 or F-35, both of which have been mass produced and which feature mature engines.

What is consistently downplayed is that most of the small number of J-20s produced are probably powered by a Russian power plant, an upgraded version of the Saturn AL-31 that powers the Sukhoi Su-35. The status of the type’s ultimate engine, the developmental Xian Aero Engine WS-15 Emei, is far from clear. Estimates suggest that the WS-15’s maximum thrust will be 18.4t (180kN), potentially giving the J-20 genuine “fifth generation” performance, including supercruise – the ability to travel at supersonic speeds without engaging the afterburner. The lack of positive news – or any news whatsoever – could be interpreted as an admission by Beijing that it is still struggling with this engine. Complicating things is that occasionally Chinese aircraft experts take to state media to claim things are going well.

As the future powerplant of Beijing’s flagship fighter, the WS-15 is the centrepiece of a family of engines, developed by a universe of companies grouped under the Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC). The family includes the Shenyang WS-10 Taihang that powers Beijing’s fleet of J-11Bs (early versions of the J-11, a local copy of the Su-27, are powered by a version of the AL-31). The WS-10 will also eventually power the J-15 naval fighter, some examples of the J-20 and future J-10Cs. In addition, there is the WS-13 that will, hopefully, one day power locally produced UCAVs such as the AVIC Dark Sword, and the WS-19 that could one day power the FC-31. The WS-13 is also seen as potential interim powerplant for the developmental AVIC FC-31 Gyrfalcon, now powered by a pair of Klimov RD-93s.

Andreas Rupprecht is the author of Modern Chinese Warplanes, an authoritative guide to mainland air power, and a keen observer of Chinese military engine developments. He notes that stricter Internet security rules in China mean that far less news about Chinese engines leaks out. This leaves observers with a narrow, sanitised window provided by state media.

Rupprecht believes that while Beijing is definitely behind the West in engine technology, the industry has made great strides in recent years owing to large investment flows. He points to the relative success of the WS-10 Taihang family, which powers the majority of the Chinese Sukhoi Su-27-derived fleet, namely the J-11B and J-16. From a testing perspective, the engine has also been found on several J-10Bs and J-20As. He views the powerplant as emblematic of China’s aerospace sector.

“AVIC has invested a lot and initiated tremendous effort to improve quality control throughout the engine’s production chain since 2011,” he says. “To claim the WS-10 engine today is still unreliable is, in my view, unjustified, maybe even ridiculous. The number of operational Taihangs alone says a lot and one must consider that for years no Chinese-built [Su-27 derivative], with the exception of the J-15s, uses a Russian engine anymore.”

Some sense of Beijing’s confidence in the programme came at Zhuhai in 2018, where a surprise flying display was put on by a WS-10-powered J-10B equipped with thrust vectoring control (TVC) engine. TVC added a whole new dimension to the aircraft’s manoeuvrability. The short display was reminiscent of flying displays performed by other fighters with TVC, such as the Su-35 and F-22. Trailing pink smoke, the J-10B TVC’s routine included tight vertical loops, a slow high angle of attack roll, a cobra manoeuvre and the falling leaf. It was an iconic moment in the history of indigenous Chinese fighter engines.

Rupprecht’s view on the secrecy shrouding Chinese engine development in recent years is shared by Douglas Royce, analyst of aircraft and aviation gas turbines at Forecast International. “The Chinese government isn't transparent, and as far as I can tell, the regional media outlets don't know much more than anyone else,” he says.

He adds, however, that it is of paramount importance for Beijing to master not just engine technology, but the means of production.

“As long as they have to depend on Russian or stolen American/European technology to power fighter aircraft, their ability to build and maintain their fighters in operational status is under threat,” he says. “So if they are to become the military equals of outside forces, they have to be able to create engines. And engines are the real limiting factor in indigenous fighter development. There are only a few companies worldwide who have the ability to design and build an all-new, state-of-the-art engine.”

Several fighter programmes illustrate the theme of indigenous fighters with foreign engines. The Saab Gripen, Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) T-50, Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas, are all powered by a General Electric engine. KAI’s planned KFX will also be powered by the F414, as will New Delhi’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Beijing is pouring great resources into its own development work, but is not above stealing technology. It is understood that the core of the WS-10 is based on CFM International CFM56 technology that China obtained in the 1980s. In October 2018, an alleged Chinese intelligence officer was extradited to the USA to face criminal charges related to a scheme to steal trade secrets from leading US aviation companies, including GE Aviation. Court documents suggested the alleged theft targeted technology related to engine fan blades and "containment structures".

The requirement for Beijing to steal technology was highlighted as early as 2011 in a report from the Washington DC-based Institute for National Strategic Studies entitled Buy, Build, or Steal: China's Quest for Advanced Military Aviation Technologies. The report concluded that China would find it increasingly difficult to develop highly advanced aerospace technologies, and its traditional partner Russia is ever more wary of sharing technology owing to fear of intellectual property theft. This will force China to rely increasingly on espionage to obtain advanced capabilities.

Observers will also be watching Chinese firm Skyrizon’s effort to buy a majority stake in Ukrainian engine manufacturer Motor Sich, which produces turbofans and turboshafts. The potential deal is reportedly under review by the Ukrainian government, and is opposed by Washington DC. In May, the Washington Post reported that the company, which formerly relied on Russian aerospace work, sees few opportunities for its future outside of China.

Rupprecht adds that Beijing’s ultimate goal is to be completely “self-reliant in every aspect” of engine development and manufacturing.

“A good number of J-10s and J-11As, as well as their Xian Y-20s and H-6Ks, depend on Russian engines,” he says. “This is unacceptable for the longer term, especially if the political climate with Moscow were to change. Therefore they are placing great effort to develop new engines in different classes and establish a broad industrial base.”

Tokyo, New Delhi power up

The Asia-Pacific region's other great powers, Japan and India, also see the importance of advanced engine capabilities.

Tokyo was developing jet engines as long ago as the Second World War. A locally developed high-bypass-ratio turbofan, the IHI F7, powers the Kawasaki P-1 maritime patrol aircraft.

In June 2018, IHI delivered the experimental XF9-1 engine, which can produce 33,000lb-thrust (147kN) with afterburner, for laboratory research work. If Tokyo decides to advance its Future Fighter programme to replace the Mitsubishi F-2, the new twin-engined stealth fighter could be powered by descendants of the XF9-1.

Another Japanese engine, the IHI XF5-1, powered Tokyo's X-2 technology demonstrator.

New Delhi's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) developed the GTX-35VS Kaveri engine for the Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas fighter.

The Kaveri programme suffered numerous cost and technical issues, and was never installed on a Tejas, which instead uses the GE Aviation F404.

The Kaveri programme was abandoned for a period, but received a second chance in 2016 as the possible powerplant for New Delhi's planned Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft. Under offset agreements related to India's acquisition of 36 Dassault Rafale fighters, France's Snecma is helping to revive the programme.

Still, great uncertainty remains over Indian jet engine technology. A recent media report quoted T Mohan Rao, a former head of GTRE, as saying the nation's efforts in propulsion will fall behind, owing to bureaucratic indifference and a lack of funding. Moreover, the Indian Air Force is understood to be highly dubious about the Kaveri.

Source: FlightGlobal.com
 
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The basic parameters of the WS-15, back in 2004. The chief designer of the WS-15 verification machine was 624's Jiang Hefu (江和甫).

The most important takeaway is that the maximum afterburner thrust of the WS-15 was set at 175 kN while the maximum dry thrust was set at 110 kN. Note the WS-15's core is YWH-30-27. The large bypass ratio engine derived from this core can achieve 200 kN of thrust. Also, note this paper was published in 2004 and it was said that the specifications were revised up after entering testing, so the final specs may look different. But it still gives a baseline of the WS-15s performance and what we should expect.

On the second graph, the Y-axis is the thrust in deca-newtons (daN) and the X-axis shows the bypass ratio. Block I represents the WS-15, indicating a thrust of around 170 to 180 kN.
Screen Shot 2020-07-09 at 11.30.18 PM.png

Screen Shot 2020-07-09 at 11.30.05 PM.png

Full paper : https://wenku.baidu.com/view/24bae11eb7360b4c2e3f6455.html
 
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We need a beautiful picture like that of the WS-15 ... we've been seeing the Taihang for ages now at this point.
How long does it need from the maiden flight of WS-10 engine to showing such a beautiful picture?
 
How long does it need from the maiden flight of WS-10 engine to showing such a beautiful picture?
WS10 IIRC was flight tested in a J-11 back in 2001 and there were really good pictures of it a couple years later. So far, we just have one picture of the WS-15 verification machine, dating back to 2009 (probably earlier than that). I heard it already entered flight testing last year on a J-11 but there aren't any pictures yet :( ... hopefully we can get one soon. Once we get that picture, we will see the full engine shortly.
 

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