China’s Submarine Fleet, Evolution & news

[ChineseTiger1986]

I suppose this is the model that is supposed to be as quiet as the improved Los Angeles class but with better sonar and electronics.

Type-95 SSN should be better but unlikely to be comparable to the Virginia class.

The Type 095 is huge, most likely about 12000 tons submerged, so it is more likely aimed at the Seawolf class.

While the Type 093G is also reported being bigger than both regular Type 093 and LA class.

And Russia Today is also praising the Type 093G and calling it advanced, so it is definitely China's peer against the Virginia class.

China reportedly completes 3 advanced nuclear attack subs — RT News

 

[Manticore]

Acoustic Quietness of Chinese Submarines

Figure 1 and Figure 2, which are taken from the August 2009 ONI report, show the acoustic
quietness of Chinese nuclear- and non-nuclear-powered submarines, respectively, relative to that
of Russian nuclear- and non-nuclear-powered submarines. The downward slope of the arrow in
each figure indicates the increasingly lower noise levels (i.e., increasing acoustic quietness) of the
submarine designs shown. In general, quieter submarines are more difficult for opposing forces to
detect and counter. The green-yellow-red color spectrum on the arrow in each figure might be
interpreted as a rough indication of the relative difficulty that a navy with capable antisubmarine
warfare forces (such as the U.S. Navy) might have in detecting and countering these submarines:
Green might indicate submarines that would be relatively easy for such a navy to detect and
counter, yellow might indicate submarines that would be less easy for such a navy to detect and
counter, and red might indicate submarines that would be more difficult for such a navy to detect
and counter.


Figure 1:

Figure 2:

For detailed information, please refer to the following article:
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33153.pdf

Chinese Submarines - are they noisy? | Page 2

 

[UKBengali]

The Type 095 is huge, most likely about 12000 tons submerged, so it is more likely aimed at the Seawolf class.

While the Type 093G is also reported being bigger than both regular Type 093 and LA class.

And Russia Today is also praising the Type 093G and calling it advanced, so it is definitely China's peer against the Virginia class.

China reportedly completes 3 advanced nuclear attack subs — RT News

Do you think Type-95 can actually match the best from US/Russia yet?

I think that Type-95 will be in between Los Angeles and Seawolf in quietness but comparable in sonar and electronics though.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Do you think Type-95 can actually match the best from US/Russia yet?

I think that Type-95 will be in between Los Angeles and Seawolf in quietness but comparable in sonar and electronics though.

Why not? To reduce the noise level all you need to have an advanced nuclear reactor.

China is currently ahead in this domain.

China building nuclear power plant with 4th-generation features - China.org.cn

 

[Manticore]

@Manticore is there a standard of research requirement? Or are we just passing off speculation as fact? It's an interesting discussion, but ultimately with systems like submarines, we actually don't know enough to make a comparison. At what point do we stop the speculation and only accept fact?

I dont think there is a researcher or TT / professional tag holder in this thread which you can criticize. Other members speculate and their point of views are to be taken as of an enthusiast but with mutual respect.
We dont know most of the details of any military hardware.Going by this token, there is no use of all the defence forums.. yet members do join in

 

[Manticore]

@SvenSvensonov
Chinese Submarines - are they noisy? | Page 2
you are welcome here as well

 

[Martian2]

No proof Chinese submarines are noisier than US or Russian submarines

The claim of China having noisy submarines is pure speculation.

I have asked repeatedly: name the design flaw that you are claiming leads to noisy Chinese submarines.

I always hear silence.

Same asymmetric seven-bladed propeller. Same single shaft. Same double-hull design. Same tear-drop shape. Same super-computer modeling. Same anechoic tiles. Same CNC five-axis machine tool construction.

In conclusion, the claim of noisy Chinese submarines is nonsense. It's a lie.
----------

Let me give you an analogy. Years ago, I claimed the Chinese Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter was stealthier than the Russian T-50/Pak Fa.

I pointed to two obvious stealth flaws on the Russian T-50/Pak Fa.

1. Russian T-50/Pak Fa lacked "S" ducts.
2. Russian T-50/Pak Fa has exposed metallic engine pods that reflect radar.

This is how you make a claim. You must point to an important design flaw.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Do you think Type-95 can actually match the best from US/Russia yet?

I think that Type-95 will be in between Los Angeles and Seawolf in quietness but comparable in sonar and electronics though.

I think the Type 095 belongs to the same category with the Seawolf/Yasen class, since they all belong to the heavy class SSN that displaces over 10000 tons.

While the Type 093G belongs the same category with the Virginia/Astute class, since they all belong to the medium class SSN that displaces between 7000-8000 tons.

Being bigger, you would have the advantage of carrying a bigger weapon bay and more endurance during the undergoing mission.

Same asymmetric seven-bladed propeller. Same single shaft. Same double-hull design. Same tear-drop shape. Same super-computer modeling. Same anechoic tiles. Same CNC five-axis machine tool construction.

China's new subs are all using the mixture of the single-hull and double-hull.

The part of the nuclear reactor will be covered by the double-hull which is more efficient to reduce the noise of the reactor.

The part of the weapon bay will be covered by the single-hull which could leave bigger room to store more weapons.

 

[Martian2]

We have a problem. No one can identify a serious Chinese submarine design flaw.

I've been asking the same question for years.

Name a serious Chinese submarine design flaw.

Always nothing!

Stop claiming Chinese submarines are more noisy than American or Russian subs. There is no rational basis for this untrue claim.

No one claims Chinese ICBMs are inferior to American ICBMs. Their performance is similar.

No one claims to be able to prove the F-35 is superior to the Shenyang J-31. In fact, the Shenyang J-31 is a clean design. The F-35 has non-stealthy thick wing-roots and a bulging underside.

Looking at other Chinese state-of-the-art weapons, we see either the same performance or superior design in the case of the Shenyang J-31 vs. the F-35.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Without proper sonar, or proper underwater acoustic equipment a lot of experts (forget armchair generals / admirals) would be at a loss to explain which is better or quieter. Unfortunately bias and superiority complex sometimes gets the better of them.

 

[Indus Falcon]

China's new submarines could create problems for the US Navy

• Jeremy Bender
• Apr. 7, 2015

Beijing is commissioning an upgraded version of a nuclear attack submarine that would be capable of carrying supersonic missiles designed to take down enemy aircraft carriers, The Diplomat reported citing China Daily.

China is commissioning three upgraded Type-093 Shang-class nuclear-powered attack submarines. The new Type-093G "is reported to be an upgraded version of Type-093 … With a teardrop hull, the submarine is longer than its predecessor and has a vertical launching system," the China Daily reported.

The redesign of the submarine would allow it to move faster and more quietly than its previous iteration, the Chinese media reported. Crucially, the 093G model would also be outfitted with vertical launch tubes that would allow the submarine to be outfitted with the YJ-18 supersonic anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM).

The YJ-18 is designed to target enemy ships and battle groups with increased lethality and range. According to the Taiwan-based Want China Times, the YJ-18, when combined with aerial spotting and targeting from Chinese aircraft operating from an aircraft carrier, could hypothetically hit enemy ships almost 250 miles away.

China has only one aircraft carrier, a nearly 30-year-old Soviet-built vessel that has had its share of mechanical problems.

The YJ-18 is designed to carry a 660-pound warhead that would be capable of sinking a destroyer-sized ship, military aviation site Deagel reported. The missile is thought to be able to maneuver after being launched in order to attempt to avoid missile interceptors.

War On The Rocks noted that a missile with a range as wide as 250 miles could pose serious problems for the US Navy's Aegis Combat System. That distance is beyond the "engagement range" of aircraft carrier strike groups, leaving the vessels vulnerable to weapons operating at that distance.

This proliferation of long-range ASCMs is perhaps the single greatest military threat the US faces from China.

Expansion and deployment of ASCMs systems would allow China to build an aerial maritime strike force that could effectively control all of the maritime territory surrounding China. The Chinese military could quickly move against enemy vessels and Beijing would be able to counter the US's naval presence in the region if the two powers ever came in conflict.

However, these missiles would still do little or nothing to counter the US submarine fleet or overcome the US underwater superiority.

China's new submarines can carry the greatest threat to the US Navy - Business Insider

 

[xuxu1457]

网曝093型核潜艇稀有纪念章 透露98年已开工(图)|核潜艇|纪念币_凤凰军事
First 093 nuke submarine start building medals， we can know that first 093 nuke sub of China started to build at Dec 1998

 

[Indus Falcon]

PLA Developing Lithium-ion Powered Submarines
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Monday, June 1, 2015

China is developing submarines powered by a lithium-ion battery propulsion system as they offer higher energy density and longer dive times than old diesel submarines.

Chinese researchers see them as the "wave of the future," Andrew Erickson, a professor at the Naval War College in Newport, Rhode Island was quoted as saying by Diplomat, Tokyo-based news magazine on May 28.

The PLA Navy is discussing putting lithium-ion batteries "on a new generation of conventional subs sometime between now and 2020, but there is no indicator as yet of the type of submarine that might be," Erickson added.

China is struggling to advance its submarine technology as it is lagging behind, when compared to west. The PLA's Type 095 nuclear submarine’s major structural weaknesses is the lack of propulsion engineering because most engines used in Chinese submarines are either based on imported foreign technology or built domestically under license.

The PLA needs submarines with reactors that are "efficient, long-lasting, reliable and quiet enough," Erickson said. He also added that it is the reason for China to equip them in their Song- and Yuan-class attack submarines.

Diesel submarines are stealthier than nuclear submarines because the former are specifically designed to minimize vibration and noise in order to evade sonar detection. However, China finds longer-lasting lithium-ion batteries could be the solution as it does not require submarines to come to the surface for recharging batteries.

The PLA Navy currently has five nuclear attack submarines, four nuclear ballistic missile submarines and 53 diesel attack submarines, the Pentagon's Office of Naval Intelligence said.



PLA Developing Lithium-ion Powered Submarines

 

[Akasa]

What could be under the blue roof? Thoughts? The blue roof is approximately 185 meters long.

This GE photo is that of Huludao, the construction site of Chinese nuclear submarines.

As shown in the following photos, the space is used as a submarine dry dock.

December 13, 2014

February 1, 2015

 

[cirr]

What could be under the blue roof? Thoughts? The blue roof is approximately 185 meters long.

This GE photo is that of Huludao, the construction site of Chinese nuclear submarines.

View attachment 237635

As shown in the following photos, the space is used as a submarine dry dock.

December 13, 2014
View attachment 237637

February 1, 2015
View attachment 237638

093B or 095.