China's Front Line Fighters

[LCA Tejas]

Let me say this.. 1 tehcnological advanced fighter against 5 PLAAF 4.5generation fighter.. su30-mki will fall from the sky man..

this technological advantage is nothing...

4.5 gen chinese aircrafts??? which one??? Buddy, the best aircraft in chinese inventory is sukhoi 30 MKK for your kind Information....

 

[JonAsad]

4.5 gen chinese aircrafts??? which one??? Buddy, the best aircraft in chinese inventory is sukhoi 30 MKK for your kind Information....

i got caried away.. indeed 4 gen fighter. so re run the equation again and tell me.

 

[LCA Tejas]

i got caried away.. indeed 4 gen fighter. so re run the equation again and tell me.

U never told me an equation, all u said is to comparer theres with us, you compare, If you say J-10's are better than Sukhoi 30,Mig 29's then I cant change your opinion, You are refusing in a manner to accept the fact...

 

[JonAsad]

U never told me an equation, all u said is to comparer theres with us, you compare, If you say J-10's are better than Sukhoi 30,Mig 29's then I cant change your opinion, You are refusing in a manner to accept the fact...

when you are bothering to reply to a post which was not directed to you then you should also read whats written in it.. i didnt gave you an equation u shud adopt it from the post u have replied too.

1:5 ring ny bells??

and i am not comparing your 98 mki with j-10.. china has 120+ J-11B/Su-30MKK/2 and 172+ J-11/Su27
compare these with you 98 mki's (remeber china also have some 700+ other fighterjets that does not fall into this category)
and this time please bring forth the technological advancement and its advantage ur 98 mki's will bring and how it gives u an overall advantage over PLAAF which has 1300+ fighters in its inventory

 

[Jazzbot]

what exactly are the capabilities of J10, J10B, J11 etc can they compete indian's SU30 MKI's..?? What are exact differences between these aircrafts and what advantages these air crafts have over each other..

Can someone technically elaborate it plz..

 

[Guest]

you are assuming that the IAF will be on the offence.

against china india has little hope of winning an offensive war. the IAF only needs to bomb the supply lines of the forces attacking india. this can be achieved with much greater ease compared to crossing tibet and bombing major chinese centres.

as i said before, ACs will take off far away from india, it's almost improssible to cut their supply route.

also cruise missiles are costly and the way you suggest them to be used, PLAAF will run out of them pretty quickly. if they intend to mantain pressure on india, they will have to fight in indian airspace or very close to it

on the contrary, compare to the potential ACs ,pilots lost and it's target, a CM's cost worth nothing.

that's why India is so eager to build their own GPS system to guide the CMs

 

[lhuang]

None of us here are military strategists, let's not get carried away.

 

[Speeder 2]

I was just thinking whether china has any fighter in service which can compete USA in today's war scenario or not..

Then i quoted China vs India, coz i wasn't expecting china to compete USA in today's war.. So at least i wanted to see what China can offer against India..

The thing is, my question is still there, though china is producing lots of things including J-XX, radars, missles which will be in service in next decade or so, but do china has any Plane in service right now, which can dominate Indian Air Force if the war starts today..?

I am not a millitary pro, but to answer your question according to what I've read:

I think China's frontline fihgters got to be J-10 A/B and J-11B for the moment. No other choices.

On a 1-to-1 basis, I do not think there's a clearcut advantage of J-10B, or more propriately J-11B against Su-MKI, and vice versus. They are more or less at the same level technologically. There're many other factors more important in a real fight such as tactics, pilot experiecnes, etc.

I wasn't talking at all about number game. China ofc has bigger number in all fields of military hardware.. i was talking is there any fighter in chinese line up which can simply dominate Indian air force and from which indian AF can feel fear..? i think there isn't any such plane right now.

I am afraid that this question itself is bit ambiguous.

See? One probabaly can argue that no a sinlge advanced 4th gen fighter could hold absolute advantage over the other: say F-15 eagle vs Rafeal vs EF vs MKI vs F16 block 60 , even vs J-11B or J-10B.

There is only 1 fighter could dominate any air force, that is F-22A.

So can a current Chinese fighter dominant India AF? No.

Although you don't want to know numerical game, that is an inseperate part of the equation, like it or not.

With that factor in mind, can China AF dominant Indian one? Depending on some other factors, the answer is likely to be yes.

... Perhaps we don't know what's the current status of J-XX, are there any other 5th Gen projects going on..? what other planes are exactly going through the process of up-gradations and what kind of up-gradations they are..


So in short, i can smell something lot more bigger from china in near future then its looking today..

2 clear and absolutely reliable sources/indicators can completely clear your doubt on the existence of JXX project:

1. China has not participated in Russia's 5th project for a clear reason. Since China can not use variants of J-10 or J-11 to fight USA's 5 th gen F-22/F-35 or Russia's T-50, China must have beeing working on the equivalent herself because China's national defence is at stake (this is no joke) , since T-50 will be stationed at North border of CHina while F-22A is already stationed at Okinawa - East China Sea.

2. Unlike Indian counterparts, it's widely acknowldged from the past experiences that PLA senior leaders have almost never openly admited anything if it's not there already; or 100% sure it'll be there very soon(very rarely) . The risk for a PLA leader to act otherwise is extremely high , it's not court martial but severe, they aren't fools.

Under this context, in a shocking rare occation, the deputy chief of PLAAF openly admitted JXX project and "the maiden flight will be very soon", " will be inducted within the next 8-10 years" in China's official national TV channel LIVE interview recently.


Even though he backtracked a bit what he said to make it sound ambiguous days after, it's preditable though as he must have been deemed as imprudent by higher ranking leaders for talking something that hasn't been successfuly completely yet - against PLA doctrine.

Nonetheless, that speech was not a joke since he wasn't drunk in a live TV interview, and most importantly his position/reputation/honor in the army was on the stake. The clip is in youtube. For anyone who understands Chinese, the Deputy Chief of PLAAF clearly meant what he said.



Furthermore, one can almost tell what China is up to by just looking at how many J10A/B / J-11B China has inducted up to now. One intersting obervation is that there are totally about 300 or so. It intuitively begs the question that how could this pathetic numbers of 4th gen be sufficient, both quantitatively and qualitatively, to defend China's long borders in a long run? It ought to have been more, much more, about 500 at least logically speaking...? And China will sit on its *** calmly waiting for others to induct 5th gen around her borders, even India will get PAKFA, a dumbed down version of T-50...?

The ONLY answer reasonablely lies in the fact of the incoming 5th gen : when or how good it would be compared with F-22A is another question, but it's almost certain it would come with two J-XX variants (a pretty logical step given such a huge R&D investment- some sources say > $ 35 billion), with less top line model 5th gen, plus mass-produced less expansive ones (still 5th gen).

Only this seems to complete the full picture, doesn't it?

 

[Guest]

to RAHUL INDIAN,

if you said MKI is superior than MKK, i second that. but if you said IAF is superior than PLAAF, sorry, i just can not agree with you.

please take a look on the equation below, it shows that missiles are the most important part. however, IAF knows so little about SD-10 while PLAAF knows R-XXs extremely well.

since you are going to find a better plane, then i suppose we have to konw how to define it first. this is a 1973 german equation, really old but clearly singled out some critical features

combat capability= (engine power* specific excess power* maneuverability * operational radius * wing span^2* avionic^3* weapon power^4) / (witght^3* specific features(RCS?)* frangibility)

amnog these crucial factors, except for WS and RCS, avionic could be improved by AWACS, weapon power coule be improved by better missiles, weight could be decresed by less fuel and less ammo. so if you are going to find something superior, you'd better go for some ACs which are stealth and with large wing span. furthermore, maybe you have noticed that this equation obviously miss two critical factors: tactics and quantity.

 

[Moorkh]

as i said before, ACs will take off far away from india, it's almost improssible to cut their supply route.


on the contrary, compare to the potential ACs ,pilots lost and it's target, a CM's cost worth nothing.

that's why India is so eager to build their own GPS system to guide the CMs

sorry if i didnt state myself correctly.

what i wanted to say was that the objective of the IAF is not to destroy PLAAF. the objective is to strike the supply lines of the PLA. that can be done without crossing tibet

a cruise missile costs almost $1 mil per unit. how many such missiles do you think the PLAAF will have in store? how many targets can you think of which are worth more than the missile? how do you propose to hit the supply lines of the indian army using only cruise missiles?

compare the payload of a cruise missile with that of an aircraft.

unless it is a very high threat environment, an aircraft is any day preferable to a cruise missile to strike targets.

 

[LCA Tejas]

when you are bothering to reply to a post which was not directed to you then you should also read whats written in it.. i didnt gave you an equation u shud adopt it from the post u have replied too.

Well, A false conspiracy dosent need to be heard buddy...

1:5 ring ny bells??

1:5 in what way, we have more than 130 Sukhoi 30 MKI's ,and 70 mig 29's... Soatotal of 200 4+gen aircrafts, and other than that we have Mirage, Mig 27's,Jaguar and Including the Mig 21's and the Bisons if You have to include the aircrafts on the verge of retirement.ring ny bells??

and i am not comparing your 98 mki with j-10.. china has 120+ J-11B/Su-30MKK/2 and 172+ J-11/Su27
compare these with you 98 mki's (remeber china also have some 700+ other fighterjets that does not fall into this category)
and this time please bring forth the technological advancement and its advantage ur 98 mki's will bring and how it gives u an overall advantage over PLAAF which has 1300+ fighters in its inventory

Might be In Your dreams, Indian Airforce is the 4th largest airforce in the world, and China only have numerical superiority, Now may I know what are those ultra modern 1300 aircrafts in chinese Inventory which are 4th gen?? J-10? J-11?? which one?? And Now tell, Me you have been speaking of technological superiority for a long time, which one are you talking about???? We have numbers aswell, and We have an Offensive airforce aswell

 

[Guest]

sorry if i didnt state myself correctly.

what i wanted to say was that the objective of the IAF is not to destroy PLAAF. the objective is to strike the supply lines of the PLA. that can be done without crossing tibet

a cruise missile costs almost $1 mil per unit. how many such missiles do you think the PLAAF will have in store? how many targets can you think of which are worth more than the missile? how do you propose to hit the supply lines of the indian army using only cruise missiles?

compare the payload of a cruise missile with that of an aircraft.

unless it is a very high threat environment, an aircraft is any day preferable to a cruise missile to strike targets.

oh you meant PLA army, why them, they are not your primary targets. unless IAF is complete destoried or neutralized, the army won't take any actions. otherwise, they would be easy targets for IAF.

as to the strategic tragets, command and contral centers, communication centers would be the primary targets. then comes the military, political and economical ones. such as airports, radar stations, power plants, fuel soloes, factories, bridges etc.

finally, money. well, this won't be a problem if a country was decided to go to war. besides that, even if a CM cost 1 million each in peaceful time, during the war time however, that will be decreased to the extent that more than you can imagine.

 

[Moorkh]

oh you meant PLA army, why them, they are not your primary targets. unless IAF is complete destoried or neutralized, the army won't take any actions. otherwise, they would be easy targets for IAF.

military action doesnt work that way. the PLA cant just sit around waiting for the PLAAF to clear the skies of indian fighters. the world will have put enough pressure by then on both the countries to stop the war.

india as i have mentioned cant go on the offensive. it will be more than happy if its only the PLAAF attacking. this way it has time to beef up the defences before the PLA moves in, if it ever gets the chance to move.

as to the strategic tragets, command and contral centers, communication centers would be the primary targets. then comes the military, political and economical ones. such as airports, radar stations, power plants, fuel soloes, factories, bridges etc.

seems like a good listing of possible targets.

finally, money. well, this won't be a problem if a country was decided to go to war. besides that, even if a CM cost 1 million each in peaceful time, during the war time however, that will be decreased to the extent that more than you can imagine.

you are most probably wrong here because of two reasons.
1) people hoard, so prices of almost everything goes up in war time. its not just hoarding, the resources are more difficult to transport due to enemy military action, increasing the cost of the items.
2) the time available to produce the missile or whatever is huge compared to how quickly it will be used up. this creates additional pressures and will stay a problem.
2)

 

[mDumb]

<This also was once a copy of Mig21.>

You're confused with J-8I. I am talking about J-8II.

<Although it has gone numerous upgrades, but the latest upgrades just BVRAAM support and better radar. The Bison that we have also supports these features. Actually Bison is way better than J7 and J8 because of powerful Israeli Jammers, and R77 AAM. At best these are just 3rd gen planes.>

Here is the list of what PLAAF has done to J-8II:
J-8IID (J-8D)
First flew on 21 November 1990, modified J-8B with fixed refuelling probe and updated avionics such as TACAN navigation system.
F-8IIM
Unveiled in Zhuhai Air Show 1996, export version of J-8B with Russian Phazotron Zhuk-8II PD radar (75 km range, and able to track up to ten airborne targets and attack two of them simultaneously), R-27R1 (AA-10) AAM and Kh-31P anti-radiation missile. The F-88IIM was to be powered by two, more powerful WP-13B turbojet engines. This aircraft is often mistakenly referred to as the "J-8IIM" with Kh-31A anti-ship missile (ASM) capability, but its radar lacked sea search mode for anti-shipping role. The F-8IIM Failed to attract any export customers and no domestic orders.[4] Conversion from older airframe was reportedly much fewer than the 100 units of Zhuk-8II radar delivered, and the conversion might have only been an experimental program with none entering service.
The twin-engined Jian-8IIM is claimed to be better equipped to survive engine damage than single-engined fighters. By using the new, powerful WP-13B engines, the Jian-8IIM fighter boasts greatly improved low-altitude maneuverability. The Jian-8IIM fighter will probably be equipped with Russia's or China's helmet sight and advanced PL-9 and P-73 missiles.[1][2][3][4]
J-8III (J-8C)
Upgraded J-8II with FBW system and 2 x WP-14 powerplants. Compared to the J-8II, the J-8C had a number of improvements including a new multi-mode pulse Doppler radar which was reportedly based on the Israeli Elta EL/M 2035 radar technology. The aircraft was also equipped with a digital fire-control system and a new &#8216;glass&#8217; cockpit with multifunctional displays (MFD). The J-8C programme entered full scale development around 1991 and the aircraft first flew successfully in 1993. Development halted in favor of other version described below, but was used to test new radars such as Type 1471 (KLJ-1) and other avionics associated with FBW system. From this version on, electronic warfare pods such as BM/KG300G and KZ900, as well as navigational / targeting pods including Blue Sky navigation pod and FILAT become operational on J-8II.
J-8IIH (J-8H)
First flew in December 1998, upgraded J-8II with new glass cockpit, WP-13B power plant, Type 1471 (KLJ-1) PD radar (75 km range) with look-down, shoot-down capability. Can use medium-range R-27 (AA-10), PL-11 AAMs, and YJ-91 anti-radiation ASMs.
J-8IIF (J-8F)
First flew in 2000, J-8H with WP-13BII powerplant, in-flight refueling probe, and Type 1492 PD radar. Successfully test-fired PL-12/SD-10 AAM in 2004.[5]
J-8G
An advanced modified variant of the J-8II tasked with the suppression of enemy air defence (SEAD) mission was said to have been developed by the SAC in 2000s. The aircraft, reportedly designated J-8G, was said to be capable of carrying two indigenous YJ-91 anti-radiation missile and electronic warfare suite to attack enemy radar stations.[5]
J-8IIM (2006)
At Zhuhai Air Show 2006, a new variant "J-8IIM" was put on display with upgraded systems similar to the J-8H. [6] The most significant improvement is the radar upgrade with a new Type 1471 domestic radar used by the J-8H. In comparison to F-8IIM's Russian Zhuk-8II radar, the Type 1471 radar has a number of performance enhancements:[citation needed]
Type 1471 radar has 75 km maximum range for targets with 3 square meters RCS, in comparison to Zhuk-8II's 70 km maximum range against target of 5 square meters RCS.
Additional ability to handle sea-borne targets that Zhuk-8II does not have. For sea targets with 50 square meters RCS, the max range is greater than 100/80 km for sea state 1/2.
Simultaneously tracking 10 targets and display 8 most threatening ones out of the 10 on displays, engaging 2 out the 8.
Air-to-Air modes: VS (Velocity Search), RWS (Recon./Search while Scan), TWS (Track While Scan), STT (Single Target Tracking), Air Combat Mode (ACM). AMTI, (aerial moving target indication) mode which is used to discover hovering helicopters can be added upon customer request, though this does not come as standard feature.
Air-to-Ground modes: Mapping (Real Beam Mapping RBM), Mapping Expansion/Freezing (EXP/FRZ), Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS), Ground Moving Target Indication (GMTI), Sea Single Target Tracking (SSTT), Air-to-Ground Ranging (AGR).
An improved beacon navigation (BCN) and weather (WX) capability.

 

[mDumb]

<Might be In Your dreams, Indian Airforce is the 4th largest airforce in the world, and China only have numerical superiority>

- Today, China boasts the world's third-largest air force, with about 400,000 personnel and some 2,000 combat aircraft. That compares to more than 2,300 for the United States, and around 400 for Taiwan.

- Along with the development of its aeronautics industry, China has developed a more formidable design capacity.

- Last year's Oct. 1 parade marking the 60th anniversary of the People's Republic of China featured bombers, unmanned aircraft, reconnaissance and rescue helicopters.

- Modernisation has included developing an inflight refuelling capacity, to give its fighters a greater reach, and early warning aircraft.

According to Sinodefence it currently consists of approximately 400,000 personnel and about 2,024 combat aircraft,[1]making the PLAAF the largest air force in Asia, and the third largest in the world behind the United States Air Force and the Russian Air Force.