China’s Deceptively Weak (and Dangerous) Military

[Sahasranama]

Don't worry, PLA soldier quality is one of the best.

We totally believe you Mr. random poster in pakistani forum.

 

[AgentOrange]

India strong! Much stronger than China! So strong it can't even make tank ammunition and is extorted by Russia...once again. India won in 1962! India Shining supadupapowa!

India Gives In to Russia's Terms For High-Priced Tank Ammunition

NEW DELHI — The Indian Defence Ministry — faced with a shortage of ammunition for its Russian-made T-90 tanks, coupled with an inability to produce ammunition at home — has no choice but to give in to Russian terms and purchase marked-up ammo from Moscow, an MoD source said.

The MoD reluctantly agreed to the deal last month, despite the fact that Russia hiked the price by 20 percent and refused to accept offset obligations.

Russia will receive a $197 million contract for the fin-stabilized armor-piercing discarding sabot. In 2011, the asking price for the same order was $163 million.

Besides jacking up the price, the Russians also refused to transfer technology for making the rounds to the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), a demand India has been making for the past five years, the MoD source added. A diplomat from the Russian Embassy merely said the sale of T-90 ammunition was on agreed-upon terms, and refused to give details.

India was forced to agree to the terms because OFB’s efforts at making the ammunition failed, an Indian Army official said.

“India bought T-90 tanks from Russia without transfer of technology for ammunition, which has resulted in perpetual shortages for the ammunition,” the official said.

“There were reportedly multiple problems in procurement of T-90 tank ammunition,” said Rahul Bhonsle, retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst. “The ammunition produced in India was not compatible with the fire-control system of the tanks, thus these have to be modified. The Defence Research and Development Organisation [DRDO] has not been able to resolve the problem, hence there is a challenge. Meanwhile, there was apparently no fallback plan, thus orders had to be made to the single supplier, which hiked the prices thus compounding the problems.”

A DRDO official said technology for the ammunition actually has been developed and transferred to OFB.

The Indian Army official, however, said the ammunition developed by DRDO is only for the T-72 tanks. The ammunition failed when it was used in the T-90 tanks.

“The OFB has failed to produce ammunition for T-90 tanks because it is far more sophisticated than ammunition for Russian made T-72 tanks,” Bhonsle said. “Because in the case of T-90 ammunition, there are intricate linkages with the fire-control computer.”

“The way out of the ammunition crisis is the need to tie up with overseas original equipment manufactures [OEMs],” said defense analyst Nitin Mehta. The rise in demand for T-90 ammunition as the fleet strength increases will be an attraction for OEMs to come forward to partner with Indian companies in producing the required ammunition, Mehta said.

The Indian Army operates more than 500 T-90 tanks, and plans to increase the strength to more than 1,300 by 2020 through license-production at Indian facilities.

An executive at a domestic private company said OFB has a monopoly on ammunition.

“The private companies [focus on] propellant and explosives, and not in the filling of the shell or rocket motor,” the executive said.

 

[Steakhouse]

If China military in the state of dysfunctional like this author describe then Obama and the US military made a big fuss over China empty threat which made the pivot to Asia policy unnecessary waste of money and energy to contain China military ambition.

 

[Sahasranama]

Obvious troll thread.

But anyways, the proof of China's growing military strength is actually very evident. If China was as weak as the author implied then the United States, with the world's most powerful military, would not feel the need to change decades of deployment policy and now "pivot" to Asia with 60% of its forces.

Read the article again.

An unprofessional army is more likely to go to war than a professional army. Now ask you question again and find the answer.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Our job is to factor in the worst possible scenario. We should proceed with the assumptions that the Chinese propaganda is feeding is 110% true.

 

[AgentOrange]

Read the article again.

An unprofessional army is more likely to go to war than a professional army. Now ask you question again and find the answer.

Hmm, and the Russians have actually gone to war. More than once in the last ten years, in fact. Yet the US maintains its force posture as is - avowedly Asia centric. Is it because of overwhelming improvements in Indian capabilities? Don't make me laugh.

I know this article makes you guys feel better about yourselves as the military and economic gap between China and India actually get bigger in China's favor. That's why it keeps getting re-posted. But please, focus on breaking the top-ten in world economies first and getting a military budget that's at least half of the PLA's. Then you guys can worry about China and maybe even one day do something about the Chinese army's constant border incursions into India, instead of just whining about it diplomatically.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Obvious troll thread.

But anyways, the proof of China's growing military strength is actually very evident. If China was as weak as the author implied then the United States, with the world's most powerful military, would not feel the need to change decades of deployment policy and now "pivot" to Asia with 60% of its forces.

Very well said, all warfare is based on deception...I dont think China has to prove anything to the west or anyone else, what we need to do is when we're strong pretend to be weak and when we're weak we should claim to be strong, prescribed on the 35th chapter of Sun Tzu...in order to confuse these foes

 

[bobsm]

Obvious troll thread.

But anyways, the proof of China's growing military strength is actually very evident. If China was as weak as the author implied then the United States, with the world's most powerful military, would not feel the need to change decades of deployment policy and now "pivot" to Asia with 60% of its forces.

Exactly. This "pivot" obviously meant China is not as weak as this author would want others to believe. Why bring in so much of your force just to contain a "weak" nation?

 

[baajey]

Wrong. We are correctly estimating the chinese capability without their state propaganda BS.

"fear is a state of mind"

putting up a rahul gandhi poster doesnt prove anything my dear fren.
anyhow, @wolfschanzze quoted me and I replied.
cheers for the rahul baba foto....i m sure there are lots tucked under ur mattress.

 

[l'ingénieur]

india is gonna get their *** handed to them if they do anything to china

the truth might hurt your feelings

 

[thesolar65]

Its about tasting blood. Chinese Army saw and tasted blood some 35 or 37 years ago i.e in 1979. Lets assume the youngest soldier at that time would be of 22 years. So the men who had a fight at that time may have retired or on the verge of retirement. So no battle experience for the current soldiers.

While the NATO countries are battle hardened, so do Pakistan, India, Afganistan, Mexico (with drug Gangs), Many Middle East countries, Many African countries, some South American countries like Columbia. See, when in a war, you see your fellow soldier gets his hand or legs or head ripped off by the bombs, gun shot, the inexperienced ones those who have never seen or heard of these things, gets panicky. In this case the Chinese generals may get panicky and press the button (know what I mean) quickly. That makes them Dangerous!!

@OrionHunter @Pulsar @levina @wolfschanzze

 

[Sahasranama]

Hmm, and the Russians have actually gone to war. More than once in the last ten years, in fact. Yet the US maintains its force posture as is - avowedly Asia centric. Is it because of overwhelming improvements in Indian capabilities? Don't make me laugh.

I know this article makes you guys feel better about yourselves as the military and economic gap between China and India actually get bigger in China's favor. That's why it keeps getting re-posted. But please, focus on breaking the top-ten in world economies first and getting a military budget that's at least half of the PLA's. Then you guys can worry about China and maybe even one day do something about the Chinese army's constant border incursions into India, instead of just whining about it diplomatically.

Russia has gone to war and so has the US, but both for good reasons. China is itching for a war without any reason. That is the difference.

This article only reinforces what most professional armies already know. Only now the general public is too becoming aware of this.

As usual you are talking about a larger budget, more gizmos etc. when the flaws are more fundamental in nature. No amount of throwing money is going to change that. As for the border incursions we are doing all that is required for the moment.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Its about tasting blood. Chinese Army saw and tasted blood some 35 or 37 years ago i.e in 1979. Lets assume the youngest soldier at that time would be of 22 years. So the men who had a fight at that time may have retired or on the verge of retirement. So no battle experience for the current soldiers.

While the NATO countries are battle hardened, so do Pakistan, India, Afganistan, Mexico (with drug Gangs), Many Middle East countries, Many African countries, some South American countries like Columbia. See, when in a war, you see your fellow soldier gets his hand or legs or head ripped off by the bombs, gun shot, the inexperienced ones those who have never seen or heard of these things, gets panicky. In this case the Chinese generals may get panicky and press the button (know what I mean) quickly. That makes them Dangerous!!

@OrionHunter @Pulsar @levina @wolfschanzze

We're not panicking as American in Korea when our solders were fought with unsophisticated weapons compare to UN force, still General Douglas MacArthur avocated to nuke China for lost war and lost face..LMAO. And when come to India or Viet, we certainly are not panicking or coward to press the button , we can deal either in hand to hand combat, sword or any weapons you chose in a fair duel.

 

[thesolar65]

We're not panicking as American in Korea when our solders were fought with unsophisticated weapons compare to UN force, still General Douglas MacArthur avocated to nuke China for lost war and lost face..LMAO. And when come to India or Viet, we certainly are not panicking or coward to press the button , we can deal either in hand to hand combat, sword or any weapons you chose in a fair duel.

OK, that I didn't know.

 

[AgentOrange]

Russia has gone to war and so has the US, but both for good reasons. China is itching for a war without any reason. That is the difference.

This article only reinforces what most professional armies already know. Only now the general public is too becoming aware of this.

As usual you are talking about a larger budget, more gizmos etc. when the flaws are more fundamental in nature. No amount of throwing money is going to change that. As for the border incursions we are doing all that is required for the moment.

You basically negate your prior assertion for why the US was pivoting to Asia - i.e. to counteract theoretical aggression from a weak Chinese military- by saying that actual Russian aggression doesn't count because Russia had "a good reason?" As if that factors into the US calculus regarding force deployment.

You're obviously willing to do any number of illogical mental somersaults to cling to your belief regarding the PLA, ignoring obvious and tangible evidence to the contrary (i.e. US pivot to Asia with 60% of its forces to counter a rising PLA). It's clear we're talking past each other.

But, as a parting gift, I'll leave you with this article. So by your reasoning, if the PLA is so weak, I wonder where the Indian army ranks? Doesn't look good.

India far behind China’s combat power
Rahul Singh , Hindustan Times New Delhi, December 12, 2013

First Published: 00:53 IST(12/12/2013) | Last Updated: 08:58 IST(12/12/2013)

India is years behind the Chinese military with the Communist neighbour currently outnumbering the country’s combat power by a 3:1 ratio, a defence ministry document has revealed.

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India hopes to bridge the gap in the next 15 years by improving its fighting capacity with new stealth jets, aircraft carriers, nuclear-powered submarines, warships and land-based strike formations.

The document, accessed by Hindustan Times, predicts the picture will change by the end of the 14th Plan period (2022-27), with India narrowing the gap in combat power with China to a “desirable ratio” of 1.5:1.


The dynamics of combat power encompass elements such as a military’s firepower, mobility, logistic capability, manpower and sustainability — factors that ultimately determine the outcome of a war.

Strategic affairs expert air vice Marshal Kapil Kak (retd) said the “desirable combat ratio” appeared to be achievable.

Steps taken by India to counter China’s military build-up have led to a marginal improvement in the relative-force ratio, the document shows.

The setting up of two new infantry divisions in 2010 in the northeast has lowered China’s combat advantage to a “2.7:1 ratio”. Odds, however, are still stacked against the army.

“In a land battle, an army can only defend against an attacking force three times its strength,” a former chief said.

The raising of a new mountain strike corps — with 85,000 soldiers — to defend Arunachal Pradesh is expected to further reduce the Chinese military advantage to a ratio of 2.1:1 by end of the 13th Plan Period (2022).

The new strike formation will give the army the capability to mount offensive action into the Tibet Autonomous Region.

Experts warn China is expected to step up efforts to transform its military to retain an edge over India. China’s official defence budget for 2013-14 stands at Rs. 5,94,000 crore, compared to India’s Rs. 2,03,672 crore.

However, China’s actual military spending may be higher, with experts suspecting dramatic under reporting of its defence expenditure.