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China's 5th Gen. Carrier-based Fighter

Because the JSF sacrifices its agility for payload and a conventional platform that can be used for 3 services. By the way NASA and Germany did test a FSW design.

Which?

If you mean X-29, Germany had nothing to do with it. MBB (a German company, now merged with EADS) did work on the X-31 though, the one with TVC nozzle.

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x-31_vector_estol_research_aircraft.jpg


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@ topic: imho nothing will come out of forward swept winged carrier J-20. CGI artist did a great job, with a slight error, ie no tailhook. That detail alone should put to an end speculation if it's official picture or not. :)
 
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Hmm I remember seeing this picture pop up before and was decided that it was just someone having fun making CGIs. Looking at the language used in the paper also suggests that this is just a prank.
 
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I think China again has copied design from Sukhoi Su-47

i like how indians immediate claim chinese products are a copy of this and that despite zero evidence, in fact they even look nothing alike except for some basic design simularities(oh look its got two wings)


for the record, this isnt a copy of anything, its not even a real project, it a cgi made for fun.
 
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@gambit @Oscar @Death.By.Chocolate @Chogy

What are the pros & cons of Forward Swept Wings in regards to flight performance?
Aaahh...A real touchy subject.

First...

Dutch roll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dutch roll is a type of aircraft motion, consisting of an out-of-phase combination of "tail-wagging" and rocking from side to side.

...sweepback (swept wings) and dihedral wings tend to increase the roll restoring force, and therefore increase the Dutch roll tendencies;...

As a swept-wing aircraft yaws (to the right, for instance), the left wing becomes less-swept than the right wing in reference to the relative wind. Because of this, the left wing develops more lift than the right wing causing the aircraft to roll to the right. This motion continues until the yaw angle of the aircraft reaches the point where the vertical stabilizer effectively becomes a wind vane and reverses the yawing motion. As the aircraft yaws back to the left, the right wing then becomes less swept than the left resulting in the right wing developing more lift than the left. The aircraft then rolls to the left as the yaw angle again reaches the point where the aircraft wind-vanes back the other direction and the whole process repeats itself. The average duration of a Dutch roll half-cycle is 2 to 3 seconds.
...All swept wings have an increased tendency to enter the Dutch roll as highlighted and the motion is explained in the larger paragraph above. So keep in mind...All aircrafts can enter the Dutch roll but the swept wings design have the greater tendency for it.

The forward swept wings design is even greater.

Am no aerodynamicist. Flight controls avionics in particular is more my thing. But my FLCC have to deal with whatever the aerodynamicist dreamed up. So some basic knowledge of aerodynamics is required. Not enough to make me like him, but just enough to understand the jargon and the principles.

In a straight wings design, aerodynamics on both wings are relatively even and equal. Even means across the wing. Equal means the forces are the same on both wings. This is for lift and drag. The pilot would have to actively work the rudder and the stick to create and sustain enough ASYMMETRIC aerodynamic forces in order to pretty much force the aircraft to enter the Dutch roll.

For the straight wings design, it was explained to me this way and I will attempt to recreate from memory...

If there is asymmetric lift and drag, be it from a violent cross wind or pilot induced, if the right wing is slightly forward one degree, the left wing will be slightly aft one degree. The straight wings would be the same in airfoil and size and when profiled into the airstream, like in level flight, the straight wings tends to keep the aircraft in that level flight and that is why it will require either a conscious effort by the pilot or some really violent air disturbances to put the aircraft into any uncontrollable and unrecoverable motion.

Not so for the swept wings. If the right LE is forward one degree, even though the left LE may be aft only one degree, precisely because of the wing sweep angle, the disparity or asymmetry of lift and drag will be greater than what one degree produces compared to the straight wings design. The greater the sweep angle, the higher the tendency to enter the Dutch roll, and if the sweep angle is high enough, the asymmetry can be magnitudinal between the wings. It all depends on the sweep angle and each wing's profile into the airstream.

Not only that, since direction of airflow over the wings are affected by wing sweep angle, the straight wings will direct airflow in a fairly uniform direction with minimal effects on the fuselage, but the swept wings in an asymmetric lift/drag condition can create unpredictable turbulence against the fuselage, further making the aircraft itself more difficult to recover and a higher tendency to enter the Dutch roll.

Post 14 have a reasonably good illustration of airflow in an aft swept wings design versus a forward swept wings design. If the forward swept wings aircraft somehow entered the Dutch roll, it will be more difficult to recover because of the higher quantity of airflow and turbulence against the fuselage.

For the aft swept wings design, in an asymmetric profile condition, if the right wing is forward, its LE will have a more straight profile into the airstream and the right wing will have more lift than the left wing.

It is the opposite for the forward swept wings design. If the right wing is forward, the left wing's LE will have a more straight profile into the airstream and the left wing will have the higher lift. So not only is there asymmetry in profiles, lift, and drag, they are in opposite of each other, producing even higher unpredictability in turbulence against the fuselage and in this case, if the vertical stabilator is not adequately sized, the aircraft will enter uncontrolled flight.

All of this came from the aerodynamicist and my FLCC have to deal with it to prevent this from happening.

In the F-16, the pitch, roll, and yaw gyros are physically identical. Only their mounted orientation in the aircraft made a gyro: pitch, roll, or yaw.

For a forward swept wings design with its inherent higher tendency to enter the Dutch roll and other assorted sideslip motions, the yaw rate gyro and lateral accelerometer may have to be distinctively designed to have increased sensitivity. Flight controls laws will have to be written to take into account of this increased sensitivity. Or if I want to keep the same mounting flexibility and interchangeability with the gyros and accelerometers, they will have to be designed and manufactured to be of higher sensitivity.

This aircraft will be pitch unstable and a 3-axes FBW FLCS is a given. But because the design is for a fighter aircraft intends to maneuver at really high AOA, all other FLCS components such as hydraulic actuators will have to be of higher response time and rate.

NASA and the USAF found the X-29's design to be not financially worthwhile back then despite results that promised a really potent ACM fighter.

China can enter this area but the Chinese had better be prepared for a lot of surprises, technical and else. And if we want to include low radar observabilty as well, those forward swept wings profiles will not help towards that goal when there will be edge diffracted signals from the wings interacting with the fuselage.
 
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Wait and see what is the real one. I think both J-20 and J-31 will have a carrier borne version.

But I have a doubt that J-31 is some how a JV between SAC and PAC!!!
 
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Wait and see what is the real one. I think both J-20 and J-31 will have a carrier borne version.

But I have a doubt that J-31 is some how a JV between SAC and PAC!!!

Doubt it's a joint venture, but I have no doubt that the first costumer will probably be Pakistan. There are rumors that Pakistan and China are working on another fighter together, but it's just rumors with little to no substance.
 
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Guys it is obvious this is not real... just read the paper itself..
 
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It was asked that if the Su-47 Berkut with its forward swept wings is more agile and maneuverable than the F-16.

The answer is: Not necessarily. The reality is that little is known about the -47's flight characteristics and its enabler: flight controls avionics.

Here is why...

People uses the word 'aerodynamics' pretty casually. Even aerodynamicists are guilty of it. The word 'aerodynamics' is about the study of air flow over structures, whether that structure is a brick or an arrow, it does not matter. As long as the structure is experiencing airflow over its body, whether it is moving or simply standing still and the wind blowing across it, we want to understand the behaviors of that flow. When we commented 'more aerodynamic' or 'improved aerodynamics', we really mean that air flow over an arrow is MORE EFFICIENT than air flow over the brick. The word 'efficient' implies a sort of balance between many competing and even conflicting factors with conflicts the worst and most problematic to meet a goal of a certain measure of 'efficiency' in doing some things. Lift conflicts with weight, for example, so then in aviation, weight is a penalty. Profiles (drag) conflicts with speed so sailboats wants hulls to present as small the profiles as possible, even down to the millimeters when a lot of money and national pride are at stake in international competitions.

Can the brick be as agile and maneuverable as the arrow? Absolutely. Provided that is has an overwhelming potential power in propulsion and flight control capabilities to compensate for its far far less efficient aerodynamics. So to be 'efficient' in aerodynamics and in flight is to have the least of anything to achieve a certain flight condition and maneuvers are conditions. We want the smallest frontal profile against the air flow, be it in the fuselage or wing leading edge (LE). We want the best combination of wing surface area to provide lift and at the same time, minimize drag. We want maximum control of the aircraft when we transition from one flight condition/state to another, aka 'maneuvers', but we want the least quantity of flight control surfaces/elements to make those transitions. So if we have to skew so terribly propulsion and flight controls for the brick so that it can perform as well as the arrow, we can make the brick airborne but it would not be a very efficient aircraft compared to the arrow.

Look at the P-47 (Thunderbolt) , P-51 (Mustang) , F-86 (Sabre), and the F-16 (Falcon). Yes, I know about the MIG-15/17 who were technical peers to the Sabre.

The T-bolt and the 'Stang represents the 'old school' of aerodynamics and flight controls with the 'Stang pretty much the end of the evolution of that 'old school'. Both aircrafts were designed to be stable in flight, hence the straight wings and quite conventional flight controls elements layout. With the Sabre and its swept wings, we began to move into the 'unstable' flight regimes but there is a catch: flight controls.

We had nothing revolutionary in terms of flight controls for the Sabre. Yes, we added hydraulic power but essentially it was just mechanical muscles for the pilot. The entire flight control system came from the 'old school' of the WW II era fighters and the truth is that this system severely limited what the Sabre could have done. Yes, there were structural and human limitations. The Sabre could not have reach the Falcon's 9gs capability or have the same turn rates. But within those limitations, the Sabre could have done better as a fighter, as in more efficient, than what we know of it today. Back in WW II, when pilots put the T-bolt and the 'Stang into dives, aerodynamic forces put so much of a 'clamping' force on the aircraft that it took all of a pilot's physical strength to pull aft on the stick to get out of that dive. And sometimes some pilots did not have the necessary physical strength. The Sabre's hydraulics remedied that one danger and provided additional power to actuate the flight controls surfaces at high speed, but conceptually no more.

The F-16 radically altered the aviation arena and still to this day, aviation enthusiasts, military and civilian, still have no idea or at best underestimate that radical change. The Falcon's 'inherent instability' phrasing is casually thrown about but the reality is much more profound than that: Inherent instability opened up the RANGE of maneuvers an aircraft can do.

To appreciate what the Falcon did, we must accept a basic understand of aerodynamics and flight controls relationship: Aerodynamics is about the study of air flow over a structure and is not the same as flight controls stability, which is about maintaining controlled flight through transitions of conditions/states.

The more aerodynamic, or more efficient air flow, an aircraft, the better it will transition from state to state. Flight controls is about the EXPLOITATION of that efficiency to maintain controllability through those transitions. That is why for the arrow, it requires three or four flight control elements to maintain stable flight while with the brick, we would have to install dozens of little fins on all sides.

But the problem is still the same for the Falcon as the Sabre: Flight controls limitations.

Inherent instability often induces oscillations. Oscillations occurs when a body under aerodynamic forces tries to return to a controlled/stable state, failed, tried again, and failed again, and so on. We already know, since the WW II era German aerodynamicists with their aft swept wings design, that swept wings tends to produce oscillations. But we are not designing a stable aircraft. We want a maneuverable aircraft and a tendency to change conditions/states is favorable to maneuvers. The oscillation problem arises when we force the aircraft to return to its previous stable condition, we failed by overcompensation, and repeat the failure one cycle after another. Improved FLCS fixed this problem and therein lies the clue to maneuverability, or rather clue to the limiting factor to greater maneuverability and controllability through state transitions: Flight controls.

Coupled flight controls system (FLCS) means all flight controls surfaces works in concert to execute a stable and controlled transition. The 'coordinated turn' interconnect is an excellent example of a C-FLCS in state transition. In the early days of aviation, that interconnect is the pilot, and those early days went from WW I to the Korean War era. Every pilot is trained on how to use the stick and rudder pedals appropiately to make a nice smooth maneuver. Take-offs and landings are necessary but if a candidate cannot make a coordinated turn, his IP would dismiss him from flight training immediately. Then from the Korean War era to the Vietnam War era, we introduced mechanical interconnects, then computer assisted mechanical interconnects, like in the F-111 and F-15, to the point where coordinated turns remains in training while the aircraft does the work in real life.

Inherent instability threw all of what we know of flight control systems engineering out the window. Now we have an aircraft -- the basic layout of fuselage, wings, and stabilators -- that has such a high tendency to change conditions/states that we simply cannot fly it. It is aerodynamics, as in efficient more to the arrow than the brick, to be sure, so aerodynamics is not an issue. So when the aerodynamicist turned the aircraft over to the FLCS engineers, the problem for those engineers is how to make this aircraft go from A to B destinations without crashing in between. When we installed rate gyros, accelerometers, computers, large stabilators, static fins, and so on, this is a clue -- that the limits on what an inherently unstable aircraft can do is: Flight Controls.

In manned flight, the flat turn is a bad thing. No pilot wants to be in those rapid transitions of conditions/states. But the pilot of the F-16/CCV (Controlled Configured Vehicle) did. The F-16/CCV aircraft had two vertical canards that is NOT coupled to the rest of the FLCS. The pilot would actuate these canards, entered the aircraft into that dreaded flat turn, thereby radically altering air flow over the aircraft, increasing the tendency to uncontrolled flight, but then the other flight control surfaces which remained coupled together, would work in concert to prevent oscillations, and the result is the aircraft able to make a CONTROLLED flat turn. Another clue that the limits on what an inherently unstable can do is: Flight Controls.

Another clue is the F-18's air/speed brake system. Most aircraft have dedicated speed brake structures. The F-16 has split rear strakes. The F-15 has a canted structure topside.

But not the F-18...

Flying the F/A-18F Super Hornet
2.2 The Virtual Speedbrake
The next handling demonstration involved involved the speedbrake and some high alpha low speed handling, an area in which many fighters experience problems in maintaining direction and avoiding a departure into uncontrolled flight.

The first demonstration involved the virtual speedbrake effectiveness and handling in this configuration. The F/A-18A-D, like the F-15 series, employs an upper fuselage hydraulically deployed speedbrake. The Super Hornet has no such device, yet achieves the same effect through what can only be described as digital magic. The speedbrake function is produced by a balanced deployment of opposing flight control surfaces, generating drag without loss of flight control authority or change in aircraft pitch attitude.

...the rudders are splayed out, and the ailerons, spoilers and flaps are generating balanced opposing pitching moments.
For the -18, obviously it has a C-FLCS, but it also has programming to work in concert in a unique situation to play the role of a structure that is necessary on other C-FLCS aircrafts. If the FLCS can work together to play the role of a speedbrake, it can also limit, for whatever reasons/justifications, the performance of an aircraft as well.

So the answer to the question on how maneuver is the Su-47 Berkut must be the unpopular: We do not know.

Absent hard data, or even reasonably educated data, on its FLCS, there is simply no way to make any declaration. From WW I to the Korean War, FLCS engineering have been able to keep up with whatever the aerodynamicists can create. From the F-16 on, we have not since. The Berkut is not as revolutionary as the F-16, but it has all the potentials that an inherently unstable aircraft can do.

The limits that FLCS engineering put on an inherently unstable aircraft is technological. Fly-by-wire FLCS extended those limits. We need more sensitive and responsive gyros and accelerometers. We need faster computers. We need more powerful hydraulics. We need more reactive actuators so may be hydraulics may not last much longer. We need better conductor, purer wires or change to light, to transmit commands and receives feedbacks. We need better materials. Believe it or not, it is materials that limits the F-16 to 9gs, discounting the pilot. Materials affects structures and with better materials, the F-16 as it is designed can fly 9gs fully loaded, instead of having limiters, which also is a clue that FLCS is the limiting factor.

It is a long post but I really cannot 'dumb' it down any further, no offense intended for any interested layman, about FLCS engineering and its relationship to aerodynamics and its priests.
 
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Doubt it's a joint venture, but I have no doubt that the first costumer will probably be Pakistan. There are rumors that Pakistan and China are working on another fighter together, but it's just rumors with little to no substance.

But the substance is present in J-31 as it uses the already commissioned RD-93 which indicates 300 JF-17 and some J-31s in future...
 
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AESA radars for J-10B、J-16 and J-20:

210814yg1umg1muvusu2bq.jpg.thumb.jpg


It should be noted that the AESA radar for J-20 represented the state of affairs in 2009.:azn:
 
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But the substance is present in J-31 as it uses the already commissioned RD-93 which indicates 300 JF-17 and some J-31s in future...

The RD-93 is a temporary engine for the J-31 and is being used as a test engine. China is developing it's own next gen engine for the J-20 and J-31 fighters.

Anyways, if Pakistan was really involved in the J-31, we would have heard at least something about it.
 
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The RD-93 is a temporary engine for the J-31 and is being used as a test engine. China is developing it's own next gen engine for the J-20 and J-31 fighters.

Anyways, if Pakistan was really involved in the J-31, we would have heard at least something about it.

I know that WS-13 is the engine which we will going to see in JF-17 Block-II and even on J-31. I think due to some National and other issues PAF/PAC might though as it won't be a good time to disclose everything... :pakistan:
 
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I know that WS-13 is the engine which we will going to see in JF-17 Block-II and even on J-31. I think due to some National and other issues PAF/PAC might though as it won't be a good time to disclose everything... :pakistan:

Who knows? At this point, we know that Pakistan may also have armed drones (which it got from China and may have used at least once) and isn't saying anything.
 
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I think only a GG pictures, only J-20 is country program, Chengdu won the bill, J-31 is only a corporate self-financing program,if Shenyang doesn't reach J-31, it may fail in future and behind Chengdu a generation tech, if J-31 work well, PLAAF will accept it, just as JH-7, L-15
 
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