China Wants 100,000 Marines To Defend Its Expanding Global Interests

[maximuswarrior]

As overseas ambitions expand, China plans 400 per cent increase to marine corps numbers, sources say
PLA will increase fighting force to 100,000 personnel, allowing for deployment in Djibouti in the Horn of Africa and Gwadar in southwest Pakistan, military insiders say

PUBLISHED : Monday, 13 March, 2017, 8:01am
UPDATED : Monday, 13 March, 2017, 9:00am



China plans to increase the size of its marine corps from about 20,000 to 100,000 personnel to protect the nation’s maritime lifelines and its growing interests overseas, military insiders and experts have said.

Some members would be stationed at ports China operates in Djibouti in the Horn of Africa and Gwadar in southwest Pakistan, they said.

The expanded corps is part of a wider push to refocus the world’s largest army away from winning a land war based on sheer numbers and towards meeting a range of security scenarios using highly specialised units. Towards that end, Chinese President Xi Jinping is reducing the size of the People’s Liberation Army by 300,000, with nearly all of the cuts coming from the land forces.

Chinese military base in Djibouti necessary to protect key trade routes linking Asia, Africa, the Middle East and Europe

Military insiders told the South China Morning Post that two brigades of special combat soldiers had already been moved to the marines, nearly doubling its size to 20,000, and more brigades would be added. “The PLA marines will be increased to 100,000, consisting of six brigades in the coming future to fulfil new missions of our country,” one source said, adding the size of the navy would also grow 15 per cent. Its current size is estimated at 235,000 personnel.




Liu Xiaojiang, a former navy political commissar, said the maritime force would take on an increasingly central role in the military.

“China is a maritime country and as we defend our maritime rights and develop our interests, the status of the navy will be more important,” Liu told reporters on the sidelines of the annual Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference in Beijing on March 5.

Traditionally, marines have mostly operated only in China’s costal areas, as their role was limited by their relatively small numbers and basic equipment, said Beijing-based naval expert Li Jie.

But a bigger corps could be deployed much farther afield as the navy takes on more challenges.

“Besides its original missions of a possible war with Taiwan, maritime defence in the East and South China seas, it’s also forseeable that the PLA Navy’s mission will expand overseas, including protection of China’s national security in the Korean peninsula, the country’s maritime lifelines, as well as offshore supply deports like in Djibouti and Gwadar port in Pakistan,” Li said.

“However, the current size of the marines and its equipment are very limited and not enough to cope with the upcoming new challenges.”


China is constructing a naval base in Djibouti to provide what it calls logistical support in one of the world’s busiest waterways. The defence ministry said in a statement last year that the facility was mostly for resupply purposes for anti-piracy, humanitarian and peacekeeping operations.

Former colonial power France and the United States also maintain sizeable bases in Djibouti, with the latter’s Camp Lemonnier home to more than 4,000 personnel. China has not said how many people its base can accommodate, although some media reports have put the figure as high as 10,000.



Gwadar port is a deep sea port next to the Strait of Hormuz, the key oil route in and out of the Persian gulf, built with Chinese funding and operated by mainland firms. Although the port is not home to any PLA installation, navy ships are expected to dock at the facility in the near future.

China is playing a crucial role in Africa’s future that will benefit all countries involved

Macau-based military observer Antony Wong Dong said an expanded marine corps could help maintain security for China’s “One Belt, One Road” initiative. The plan calls for new trade and investment links stretching from Southeast Asia to eastern Europe, and will likely see Chinese companies as well as their workers operating in high-risk areas such as Pakistan and Afghanistan

The marines were established in the 1950s in the aftermath of the civil war between China’s Communists and Chiang Kai-shek’s Nationalists who fled to Taiwan. For decades, Taiwan had the second-largest marine force in the world, after the United States, but its stature began to decline in the 1990s when Beijing began pursuing claims in the South China Sea.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl...s-ambitions-expand-china-plans-400pc-increase

Pakistan will welcome Chinese marine forces. Pakistan requires Chinese assistance in securing CPEC and Gwadar assets. Together we will secure our assets and make sure the enemy doesn't dare cast an evil eye. Pak and Chinese forces also regularly hold naval exercises to prepare for this inevitable eventuality. China is also Pakistan's primary naval source.

No doubt Chinese naval presence at Gwadar and other strategic ports is only a matter of time. It serves both the security interest of the host nation as well as Chinese investments.

For the largest trading nation in the world with the largest number/tonnage of merchant fleet, this is a welcome, anticipated and, even, belated move.

Besides, this indicates a change of deep-seated mentality of a land power to a land-maritime continental power, which requires force projection capacity via international air and sea routes.

Of course, it is a result of a system-wide improvement/development, which takes time. For instance, China's power projection capacity cannot be thought of independent from, e.g., the development of Baidou navigation system.

Couldn't have said it any better. It is inevitable and a natural process for a major country like China. As its maritime capabilities develop and mature so will its ambitions and power projection. No doubt China is going to adjust and increase the capacity of its naval forces over the years to meet the security challenges.

 

[Beast]

The way he argues his case is childishly simplistic: " It is the 21st century. "

As if somehow being in the 21st century endows one with quasi-magical abilities.

Trying to side track and then misled the readers? If by your theory, indeed it's magic happening. WWII Day still LST landing still needs to read and depend on tide to assault the enemy breach.

Now in 21th century. You can virtually ignore the tides and strike anytime you want with LDP/LHD couple with LCAC and amphibians asset that can land heavy armour. Indeed it's the 21th century.

No modern navy except as a last resort relies to any extent on 'dual-use ships' for warfighting, let alone spearheading amphibious assaults. You are welcome to list what civilian vessels the US Navy relies on.

The US navy has some dual-use shipyards which are configured to rapidly go into warship building mode if needed (and even that is not easy) but the only limited extent of civilian vessels used for naval operations is intelligence gathering when unobtrusiveness is needed and no armed engagement forseen (such as the USS Liberty).

None of the successful amphibious assaults in recent times - Normandy, Incheon, Falklands - have relied on civilian vessels even slightly. To talk about 'probably communication set' as a distinction is so simplistic that one could just as well suggest that a civilian cargo A320 with some ordnance placed in its cargo bay is a bomber.

You shall read falkland war and see how many civilian ships RN requisite that included 2 giant ocean liner that ferries the commando who assaulted falkland and play a critical role in victory of falkland.

 

[yantong1980]

Trying to side track and then misled the readers? If by your theory, indeed it's magic happening. WWII Day still LST landing still needs to read and depend on tide to assault the enemy breach.

Now in 21th century. You can virtually ignore the tides and strike anytime you want with LDP/LHD couple with LCAC and amphibians asset that can land heavy armour. Indeed it's the 21th century.

Bro, why don't leave behind "expert" like Jhungary or Gambit etc. I suggest better we all discussed about how China will create this 100.000 marine forces, to build such a force a lot of thing need to prepared and set up. Any fresh idea more better for this thread.

 

[Beast]

Bro, why don't leave behind "expert" like Jhungary or Gambit etc. I suggest better we all discussed about how China will create this 100.000 marine forces, to build such a force a lot of thing need to prepared and set up. Any fresh idea more better for this thread.

Indeed , these 2 dude are indeed very irritating.

 

[jhungary]

You shall read falkland war and see how many civilian ships RN requisite that included 2 giant ocean liner that ferries the commando who assaulted falkland and play a critical role in victory of falkland.

that is wrong, in falkland, the Royal Marine landed in San Carlos water with 2 LPD, subsequently, the 5 Brigade was unloaded by SS Canberra and RMS Queen Elizabeth 2 after the Marine capture Port San Carlos long after the battle of San Carlos concluded on the 25th May.

Here are the extract of both ship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Canberra#Falklands_War

Canberra anchored in San Carlos Water on 21 May as part of the landings by British forces to retake the islands.[3] Although her size and white colour made her an unmissable target for the Argentine Air Force, Canberra, if sunk, would not have been completely submerged in the shallow waters at San Carlos. However, the liner was not badly hit in the landings as the Argentine pilots tended to attack the Royal Navy frigates and destroyers instead of the supply and troop ships. After the war, Argentine pilots claimed they were told not to hit Canberra, as they mistook her for a hospital ship.[4]

A painting of SS Canberra's return to Southampton from the Falklands
Canberra then sailed to South Georgia, where 3,000 troops were transferred from Queen Elizabeth 2. They were landed at San Carlos on 2 June

RMS Queen Elizabeth 2. 67,140 GRT — equipped with helicopter pad[5] and carried 3,200 men of the 5th Infantry Brigade. At South Georgia, the men of 2nd Battalion Scots Guards, 1st Battalion Welsh Guards and 1/7 Gurkha Rifles were transferred to Canberra, Norland and RFA Stromness on 27 May for transport to San Carlos

Both ship were used as Troop Transport, not Amphibious Transport.

 

[Beast]

that is wrong, in falkland, the Royal Marine landed in San Carlos water with 2 LPD, subsequently, the 5 Brigade was unloaded by SS Canberra and RMS Queen Elizabeth 2 after the Marine capture Port San Carlos long after the battle of san Carlos concluded on the 25th May.

Here are the extract of both ship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Canberra#Falklands_War

Canberra anchored in San Carlos Water on 21 May as part of the landings by British forces to retake the islands.[3] Although her size and white colour made her an unmissable target for the Argentine Air Force, Canberra, if sunk, would not have been completely submerged in the shallow waters at San Carlos. However, the liner was not badly hit in the landings as the Argentine pilots tended to attack the Royal Navy frigates and destroyers instead of the supply and troop ships. After the war, Argentine pilots claimed they were told not to hit Canberra, as they mistook her for a hospital ship.[4]

A painting of SS Canberra's return to Southampton from the Falklands
Canberra then sailed to South Georgia, where 3,000 troops were transferred from Queen Elizabeth 2. They were landed at San Carlos on 2 June

RMS Queen Elizabeth 2. 67,140 GRT — equipped with helicopter pad[5] and carried 3,200 men of the 5th Infantry Brigade. At South Georgia, the men of 2nd Battalion Scots Guards, 1st Battalion Welsh Guards and 1/7 Gurkha Rifles were transferred to Canberra, Norland and RFA Stromness on 27 May for transport to San Carlos

Both ship were used as Troop Transport, not Amphibious Transport.

That is still good enough. Its still an important asset of civilian ship supporting military campaign. Civilian ocean liner has enough roomy spaces, food and logistic to support large number of troops on a week long voyage to operation area. They do the transfer to amphibious ships and launched the assault to secure more enemy land in 24hrs. That will solve large number of logistic problem like food, good sleep for the marines (which amphibious ships might be strained) that keep them in tip top condition before the assault. And that will easily bring one hundred thousands troops.

 

[jhungary]

That is still good enough. Its still an important asset of civilian ship supporting military campaign. Civilian ocean liner has enough roomy spaces, food and logistic to support large number of troops on a week long voyage to operation area. They do the transfer to amphibious ships and launched the assault to secure more enemy land in 24hrs. That will solve large number of logistic problem like food, good sleep for the marines (which amphibious ships might be strained) that keep them in tip top condition before the assault. And that will easily bring one hundred thousands troops.

The point I raise is that civilian ship does not conduct amphibious assault, while they support a given amphibious assault operation by providing anything they can, they are not essential for Amphibious Operation.

In effect, Civilian Ship are there to boost the capability of Amphibious Assault Ship or Assault Squadron. But the thing is, if you do not have a large assault squadron, Civilian Ship cannot boost anything as the Assault Squadron is small.

FOr example. If for any reason, China want to launch an Amphibious Assault on Africa tomorrow. China have 4 Type 071 LPD, which give PLAN about 4,000 troops capacity, if you tag along a Civilian Troop Transport (say you hire P&O MV Acadia and outfitted it to accomdate 9,000 troops) The MV acadia essentially boosted your troop level to 13,000. However, to delieve all 13,000 troop onshore, you will need to make 4 trips because you only have 4 Type 071. Which can put 4,000 men ashore each time.

On the other hand, the if US decided to launch an Amphibious Assault on Africa tomorrow. Let's not bring in the Full US Navy into the equation, let's bring 4 America/Wasp Class ship. Each of them are cacpable to transport ~2,200 men ashore in a single operation. Which bring the Total Troop level at around 9,000. Boosted with a P&O Cruiser, which will boosted up to 18,000 troop. And to delieve these 18,000 troops, the US Navy only needed to make 2 trips.

For a multi-division assault, the trips gap between Chinese made and US made will increase with the same Military Hardware. (at 30,000 troop, which is about 2 divisional strength, China would have to make 8 trips, while the US only need to make 4 trips.) Which mean trip tdouble, but trip times quadruple. And you are talking about a few hours or even days (It takes hours to embark between troop trasnport and assault dock)

Otherwise Troop ship is only ever used after you have secure a dock. But in the end, how do you think you will fare if the initial troop strength is low?

 

[Beast]

The point I raise is that civilian ship does not conduct amphibious assault, while they support a given amphibious assault operation by providing anything they can, they are not essential for Amphibious Operation.

In effect, Civilian Ship are there to boost the capability of Amphibious Assault Ship or Assault Squadron. But the thing is, if you do not have a large assault squadron, Civilian Ship cannot boost anything as the Assault Squadron is small.

FOr example. If for any reason, China want to launch an Amphibious Assault on Africa tomorrow. China have 4 Type 071 LPD, which give PLAN about 4,000 troops capacity, if you tag along a Civilian Troop Transport (say you hire P&O MV Acadia and outfitted it to accomdate 9,000 troops) The MV acadia essentially boosted your troop level to 13,000. However, to delieve all 13,000 troop onshore, you will need to make 4 trips because you only have 4 Type 071. Which can put 4,000 men ashore each time.

On the other hand, the if US decided to launch an Amphibious Assault on Africa tomorrow. Let's not bring in the Full US Navy into the equation, let's bring 4 America/Wasp Class ship. Each of them are cacpable to transport ~2,200 men ashore in a single operation. Which bring the Total Troop level at around 9,000. Boosted with a P&O Cruiser, which will boosted up to 18,000 troop. And to delieve these 18,000 troops, the US Navy only needed to make 2 trips.

For a multi-division assault, the trips gap between Chinese made and US made will increase with the same Military Hardware. (at 30,000 troop, which is about 2 divisional strength, China would have to make 8 trips, while the US only need to make 4 trips.) Which mean trip tdouble, but trip times quadruple. And you are talking about a few hours or even days (It takes hours to embark between troop trasnport and assault dock)

Otherwise Troop ship is only ever used after you have secure a dock. But in the end, how do you think you will fare if the initial troop strength is low?

http://www.popsci.com/china-goes-big-with-one-worlds-largest-support-ships

There is a reason why I mention dual use submersible ship, the LCAC can launch from it and alongside near ocean liner while troops embarked and launched assault and landing on enemy beach.

 

[Arsalan mehmud]

Very good decision... Congrats Chinese bros

 

[jhungary]

http://www.popsci.com/china-goes-big-with-one-worlds-largest-support-ships

There is a reason why I mention dual use submersible ship, the LCAC can launch from it and alongside near ocean liner while troops embarked and launched assault and landing on enemy beach.

Then it goes back to the original question. How the troop disembark from Oceanliner to these platform in the middle of an ocean?? When Oceanliner have different draft, exits, ship height than these submersible.

Also, with only 3 LCAC, it did not do much in war. Again, you get about 500 troops from 3 LCAC. Not to mention the lacking of hanger space and storage space, you cannot launch sorties that support anything other than Infantry.

 

[艹艹艹]

Ask military experts to give us an idea how to protect overseas assets! !
thanks！

 

[Beast]

Then it goes back to the original question. How the troop disembark from Oceanliner to these platform in the middle of an ocean?? When Oceanliner have different draft, exits, ship height than these submersible.

Also, with only 3 LCAC, it did not do much in war. Again, you get about 500 troops from 3 LCAC. Not to mention the lacking of hanger space and storage space, you cannot launch sorties that support anything other than Infantry.

You dont need rocket science to disembark troops from ocean liner to LCAC or LCU. Portable traditional ladders or rope ladder can do the job.

How do you know PLAN has only three LCAC? China currently has more than just one dual use semi-submersible ship. With the newly launched one capable of lifting two Zubr plus 4 LCAC in one go to operation at enemy sea and giant size Zubr which one launch itself can lift 500 troops. Currenly, PLAN has more than 3 Zubr in service with more in building.

The Zubr-class landing craft has a cargo area of 400 square metres (4,300 sq ft) and a fuel capacity of 56 tons.[2] It can carry three main battle tanks (up to 150 tonnes), or ten armoured vehicles with 140 troops (up to 131 tonnes), or 8 armoured personnel carriers of total mass up to 115 tonnes, or 8 amphibious tanks or up to 500 troops (with 360 troops in the cargo compartment).

At full displacement the ship is capable of negotiating up to 5-degree gradients on non-equipped shores and 1.6m-high vertical walls. The Zubr remains seaworthy in conditions up to Sea State 4. The vessel has a cruising speed of 30-40 knots.

 

[jhungary]

You dont need rocket science to disembark troops from ocean liner to LCAC or LCU. Portable traditional ladders or rope ladder can do the job.

How do you know PLAN has only three LCAC? China currently has more than just one dual use semi-submersible ship. With the newly launched one capable of lifting two Zubr plus 4 LCAC in one go to operation at enemy sea and giant size Zubr which one launch itself can lift 500 troops. Currenly, PLAN has more than 3 Zubr in service with more in building.

The Zubr-class landing craft has a cargo area of 400 square metres (4,300 sq ft) and a fuel capacity of 56 tons.[2] It can carry three main battle tanks (up to 150 tonnes), or ten armoured vehicles with 140 troops (up to 131 tonnes), or 8 armoured personnel carriers of total mass up to 115 tonnes, or 8 amphibious tanks or up to 500 troops (with 360 troops in the cargo compartment).

At full displacement the ship is capable of negotiating up to 5-degree gradients on non-equipped shores and 1.6m-high vertical walls. The Zubr remains seaworthy in conditions up to Sea State 4. The vessel has a cruising speed of 30-40 knots.

lol......have you ever been on a cruise ship or troop transport?

you cannot use a ladder to transport passenger from a ship to another ship, especially when you have 100 pounds of gear on your back. You need what we called "Disembark Portal" which is similar to the corridor you use when you board a plane, where you can transfer your passenger without them falling into water by all the heaving and heavy pack.

Infact, ship to ship trasnfer is something you don't generally do unless you are in a bind and that is your last resort (ie bailing out of a sinking ship). In the old way, you use netting. A giant net cast on the side of the ship and troop disembark from it with legs on the horizontal and hands on the verticle. And you cannot bring any supplies and equipment, that mean you can only transfer man, without any supplies to go with.

If you read carefully from the detail of SS Canberra, there is a reason why it dock at south georgia before taking in the 5th Infantry Brigade from QE2.

Also, I don't think these dock can move at a speed of 30 knots. Heavy Lift Ship like MV Blue Marlin or Mighty Serveant can only go about 12-14 knots, They will be leave behind by your Amphibious Assault group.

And finally, I do not mean China only have 4 (Even russian only ever built 9) Zubr, I said these Semi-Submersible can only load 3 LCAC, which is nothing, which give you about 800-1000 Troop capacity.

 

[Beast]

lol......have you ever been on a cruise ship or troop transport?

you cannot use a ladder to transport passenger from a ship to another ship, especially when you have 100 pounds of gear on your back. You need what we called "Disembark Portal" which is similar to the corridor you use when you board a plane, where you can transfer your passenger without them falling into water by all the heaving and heavy pack.

Infact, ship to ship trasnfer is something you don't generally do unless you are in a bind and that is your last resort (ie bailing out of a sinking ship). In the old way, you use netting. A giant net cast on the side of the ship and troop disembark from it with legs on the horizontal and hands on the verticle. And you cannot bring any supplies and equipment, that mean you can only transfer man, without any supplies to go with.

Also, I don't think these dock can move at a speed of 30 knots. Heavy Lift Ship like MV Blue Marlin or Mighty Serveant can only go about 12-14 knots, They will be leave behind by your Amphibious Assault group.

And finally, I do not mean China only have 4 (Even russian only ever built 9) Zubr, I said these Semi-Submersible can only load 3 LCAC, which is nothing, which give you about 800-1000 Troop capacity.

Its truth this submersible are slow but fact is they still can bring in support nearer to enemy beach and act as second wave with amphibious taking the first wave of securing the enemy beach.

 

[gambit]

You dont need rocket science to disembark troops from ocean liner to LCAC or LCU. Portable traditional ladders or rope ladder can do the job.

Not rocket science. Only common sense. My post about you not understanding the difference between 'support' and 'assault' was deleted but it was applicable.

An amphibious landing is like a bottleneck. If your landing craft can only deliver 100 troops at a time, all the ocean liners in the world to support is not going to help you. In the history of warfare, probably no amphibious landing is more famous than D-Day. To deliver fully laden soldiers, tanks, and assorted hardware of war from the sea is a unique specialty that no one in the world is more experienced than the US. It requires pre-knowledge of the landing site, specially designed crafts, uniquely trained technicians, and finally, combatants whose organization and doctrines fully support this specialty. Your China is completely inexperienced in amphibious operations.

http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/jp-doctrine/jp3_02_1(04).pdf

You talk as if drafting civilian ships will solve all the problems associated with an amphibious assault.