China to export Type 052D destroyers, signalling more advanced ships in the pipeline: analyst

[FuturePAF]

I can't believe people are discussing purchasing this ship... are you oblivious to the state of your economy right now?

If anything perhaps we should be looking to hire an advisory Chinese team to suggest reforms to the retards sitting in government.

I understand the concern, but if we get through the 2020s with our economy restructuring and on an even keel, we can focus on maintain the regional balance with India they way we need to do to prevent their hegemony.

It maybe a carrier is not need for the PN, but that’s what this forum is for; to discuss it. We have to see where it fits in our anti-blockade strategy, if at all. Also, as an amphibious assault ship, it may have other uses other than a carrier, depending on what Pakistan’s foreign policy may be. Its use could be in UN peacekeeping missions or disaster relief.

We debated the J-10 for a decade before we bought it, when the need became evident with the IAF’s acquisition of the Rafale.

You guys need to borrow money more wisely.

More widely and sustainably. We need a plan to pay it off the debt through more exports.

That's the sole purpose, you can play with those fancy toys when you are strategically bundled altogether with China.



Pakistan's senior naval officers are inspecting the Type 052DL Nanning.

https://k.sina.com.cn/article_6189120710_m170e67cc6033015f72.html?from=mil#/

The Type 076 can launch manned aircraft as well as the EMALS of the Type 003 can launch the aircraft up to 50 tonnes.

Although the EMALS of the Type 076 can only launch 30 tonnes aircraft, but it is sufficient to launch the J-35.

The Type 052DL with some modifications such adding an integrated mast and removing the aft radar position to allow an increase in the number of VLS count to 96 (to make it “future-proof”) would probably fit well with the PN aspiration for proper area air defense as well as heavy offensive capability with a large number of lobs range hypersonic YJ-21E; considering the threat of the Brahmos and the smaller number of PN ships. This would decrease the need for the navy to have its own fighter cover.

Unit cost of $500 Million for the Type 052D is also unbeatable.

If the PN acquires it, it should aim for an upgrade to to be comparable to the Flight IIA Arleigh Burkes and its SM-2 and SM-6 capabilities, because it may only be able to afford a couple of ships for some time, instead of the six it said it requires. For example, if the active seeker version of the HHQ-9C (460 km) is not approved for export, and an active seeker/AESA variant of the HH-9B (300 km) should he sought.

The benefit for China to do this modification is that down the line, the “upgrade” could be the template for a mid-life upgrade of the Type 052C/D/DL in the PLAN. Similar to how the Type 054A/P is a further development of the Type 054A design and could be the basis of the upgrade template for the current fleet of Type 054A in the PLAN.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I understand the concern, but if we get through the 2020s with our economy restructuring and on an even keel, we can focus on maintain the regional balance with India they way we need to do to prevent their hegemony.

It maybe a carrier is not need for the PN, but that’s what this forum is for; to discuss it. We have to see where it fits in our anti-blockade strategy, if at all. Also, as an amphibious assault ship, it may have other uses other than a carrier, depending on what Pakistan’s foreign policy may be. Its use could be in UN peacekeeping missions or disaster relief.

We debated the J-10 for a decade before we bought it, when the need became evident with the IAF’s acquisition of the Rafale.

More widely and sustainably. We need a plan to pay it off the debt through more exports.


The Type 052DL with some modifications such adding an integrated mast and removing the aft radar position to allow an increase in the number of VLS count to 96 (to make it “future-proof”) would probably fit well with the PN aspiration for proper area air defense as well as heavy offensive capability with a large number of lobs range hypersonic YJ-21E; considering the threat of the Brahmos and the smaller number of PN ships. This would decrease the need for the navy to have its own fighter cover.

Unit cost of $500 Million for the Type 052D is also unbeatable.

If the PN acquires it, it should aim for an upgrade to to be comparable to the Flight IIA Arleigh Burkes and its SM-2 and SM-6 capabilities, because it may only be able to afford a couple of ships for some time, instead of the six it said it requires. For example, if the active seeker version of the HHQ-9C (460 km) is not approved for export, and an active seeker/AESA variant of the HH-9B (300 km) should he sought.

The benefit for China to do this modification is that down the line, the “upgrade” could be the template for a mid-life upgrade of the Type 052C/D/DL in the PLAN. Similar to how the Type 054A/P is a further development of the Type 054A design and could be the basis of the upgrade template for the current fleet of Type 054A in the PLAN.

Maybe it is better for China to redesign a new type of DDG that is a cross between the Type 052D and Type 055.

Full load around 10,000 tonnes with 96 large VLS units that is 0.85 meter wide and 9 meters deep.

 

[That Guy]

It gonna be offered with friendly price.

I mean, even if China gives them for free, Pakistan simply doesn't have the money to even maintain these advanced ships.

Pakistan is on the verge of bankruptcy, new ships like the 52D is not on the card any time soon. Maybe one 5 years time when things stabilize again.

 

[Song Hong]

Pakistan is begging imf now.

 

[FuturePAF]

Maybe it is better for China to redesign a new type of DDG that is a cross between the Type 052D and Type 055.

Full load around 10,000 tonnes with 96 large VLS units that is 0.85 meter wide and 9 meters deep.

That would be ideal. A Type 052D with some features of the Type 055; integrated mast, higher VLS count, IEP, stealth superstructure to decrease IR and RCS signature. Considering the PN can’t afford it yet, going into a project to design a tailor made ship that will need to be the best in South Asia for decades to come, spending some time while the national finances are being sorted out to work out an optimal design sounds better just going for a slightly upgraded standard design. It would also be a good way to figure out a mid-life upgrade for the PLAN’s Type 052D/DLs already in operation.

The following is a design from a Thai site. Something like this proposed “Type 052E” maybe the right fit for the PN, IMHO.

Type 052D destroyer

The Type 052D destroyer (NATO code name Luyang III class, or Kunming class after the lead ship) is a class of guided missile destroyers being deployed by the Chinese People’s Liberation Army …

thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com

I mean, even if China gives them for free, Pakistan simply doesn't have the money to even maintain these advanced ships.

Pakistan is on the verge of bankruptcy, new ships like the 52D is not on the card any time soon. Maybe one 5 years time when things stabilize again.

It’s probably be offered to the Saudis, but for the PN is probably part of their long term acquisition plan (the 6 destroyers in the 6000+ ton class) probably for 2030+. But I agree, with all the ships the PN has been procuring lately, it may need to put this off till the national finances are in order.

Coming back to the Type 076 LHD/Light carrier, future destroyers and submarines, WW2 in the pacific was won in the shipyards. So building a class of carrier and warships that can be build relatively cheaply and in large numbers will be crucial to PLAN to be able to sustain itself.

 

[Song Hong]

The future PLA mass production could be Type 054B. 054B was reported to be 70% of 052D in terms of water displacement and building cost is 50%. More smaller and agile ships may be better than one big expensive one.

 

[casual]

I mean, even if China gives them for free, Pakistan simply doesn't have the money to even maintain these advanced ships.

Pakistan is on the verge of bankruptcy, new ships like the 52D is not on the card any time soon. Maybe one 5 years time when things stabilize again.

agree. very few potential customers for this ship. The country has to be in the market for destroyers and aren't in the USA camp. All I can think of is Saudi and maybe Thailand

 

[Song Hong]

Can sell to Iran or Russia but West will make China a pariah.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I mean, even if China gives them for free, Pakistan simply doesn't have the money to even maintain these advanced ships.

Pakistan is on the verge of bankruptcy, new ships like the 52D is not on the card any time soon. Maybe one 5 years time when things stabilize again.

KSA will finance it.

That would be ideal. A Type 052D with some features of the Type 055; integrated mast, higher VLS count, IEP, stealth superstructure to decrease IR and RCS signature. Considering the PN can’t afford it yet, going into a project to design a tailor made ship that will need to be the best in South Asia for decades to come, spending some time while the national finances are being sorted out to work out an optimal design sounds better just going for a slightly upgraded standard design. It would also be a good way to figure out a mid-life upgrade for the PLAN’s Type 052D/DLs already in operation.

The following is a design from a Thai site. Something like this proposed “Type 052E” maybe the right fit for the PN, IMHO.

Type 052D destroyer

The Type 052D destroyer (NATO code name Luyang III class, or Kunming class after the lead ship) is a class of guided missile destroyers being deployed by the Chinese People’s Liberation Army …

thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com

View attachment 916372


It’s probably be offered to the Saudis, but for the PN is probably part of their long term acquisition plan (the 6 destroyers in the 6000+ ton class) probably for 2030+. But I agree, with all the ships the PN has been procuring lately, it may need to put this off till the national finances are in order.

Coming back to the Type 076 LHD/Light carrier, future destroyers and submarines, WW2 in the pacific was won in the shipyards. So building a class of carrier and warships that can be build relatively cheaply and in large numbers will be crucial to PLAN to be able to sustain itself.

According to some rumor, the newest batch of the Type 052D has exceeded 8500 tonnes, and let's see if they can add more VLS units.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Can sell to Iran or Russia but West will make China a pariah.

Well, the US is always attempting to do this on China even without any pretext.

However, they have already failed numerous times.

 

[That Guy]

KSA will finance it.

KSA isn't even willing to bail out Pakistan right now with its current financial situation, why would they finance Pakistan's navy?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

KSA isn't even willing to bail out Pakistan right now with its current financial situation, why would they finance Pakistan's navy?

Pakistan is always known as the guardian of the Muslim World, so KSA will definitely finance Pakistan's military expenditure for their own safety interest.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Pakistan is always known as the guardian of the Muslim World, so KSA will definitely finance Pakistan's military expenditure for their own safety interest.

No - the "Muslim world" has seen how quickly a "muslim army" overthrew its own elected goverment on the basis of a simple cipher/telephone call and have come to the realisation that if it can do that to its own elected goverment - then they are not trust worthy enough to place any level of trust in for anything ....

Saudia's will not be relying much on Pakistan going forward - think their eyes have been opened. They will focus on their own strength - as should all countries.

 

[FuturePAF]

KSA will finance it.



According to some rumor, the newest batch of the Type 052D has exceeded 8500 tonnes, and let's see if they can add more VLS units.

If the Type 076 is meant to be a medium carrier, it would be better if it was build like the French Charles de Gaulle carrier, a 42,500 ton ship. A slightly larger design would be necessary if the ship is not going to be nuclear.

Two catapults on a modestly sized ship, that can launch fixed wing AWACS planes. It seems to be being considered by other PLA watchers as a possible inspiration for the Type 076, if my understanding the following video is correct. 3:26 onwards?

A smaller version of the Type 003 would probably be the best option, in my amateur opinion. Something in the 50-60,000 ton range (similar in size to the Type 002 Shandong) would probably be large enough to get the benefits of a major carrier (CATOBAR with fixed AWACS) while being small enough that they could be built in a shipyard other then the one building Type 003 class carriers.

If the PLAN is to be close to parity with the USN, it will need a mix of 15-20 medium and super carriers; so a force of at least 8 medium carrier and 8 super carrier would probably be what the PLAN will need by 2050.

A 60,000 ton carrier would probably also be a great export product for countries like Brazil, Saudi Arabia, and Russia (which had intended to procure the Mistral and also needs a replacement for its Kuznetov Carrier)


So the best design that meets the need to still be an LHD it large enough to project significant power and still be conventionally powered, would be a CATOBAR variant of the queen elizabeth class like the one France was studying; but instead of 75,000 tons, still staying working the 60,000 ton size of the queen elizabeth.

This design was called the PA2 or DAEC carrier

Whatever happened to France’s Queen Elizabeth twin, the DEAC aircraft carrier?

In the lead up to the formalised design of the Royal Navy's Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers, then design partner DCNS, now Naval Group presented a medium-sized, conventionally powered aircr

www.defenceconnect.com.au

French aircraft carrier PA2 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[casual]

There's rumor going around that Algeria is looking to buy 6 ships and Saudi is looking to buy 12 ships. Pretty insane if true. 12 Type 052E would instantly catapult Saudi to 3rd largest Navy in the world.