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China: The Influence of History.

You are incorrect in applying contemporary mores in judging the Depression-era US. Comparatively speaking, the US went above and beyond for China, a country to which it owed nothing and shared no cultural, linguistic, or historical bonds.

The United States didn't even embargo Nazi Germany in response to its blitzkrieg in Europe, concurrent with Japan's aggression in China. Why do you feel that the Depression-ravaged, isolationist US failed China when it did more for China than it did for Europe?

It pains me that the US wasn't able to save China, but considering the situation of the time, it's hard to see how China could have asked for anything more of the US (again, especially when the US refused to intervene in the wars engulfing its cultural cousin, Europe). The US role as global policeman came after the war, so to use that anachronistic standard and claim that the US failed China, or worse, that by maintaining neutrality the US implicitly aided Japan, is absolutely incorrect.

It's becoming clearer now how the CCP has convinced so many Chinese to hate the US, when history tells the opposite story.

I'm not criticizing US non-action, but would like to correct some people's misconception on the events of the war. It's a fact that China is not strategically important at that point to worth jeopardizing the lucrative trade US has with Japan. I for one have no problem with that, as every state should look after its own interest, but I do have a problem with those who believes or who claims that US came to China's rescue like a shiny knight on a white horse.
 
I thought it might be educational for you to watch the US propaganda film dated 1944:

Why We Fight_ The Battle of China - WW2 Film_土豆_高清视频在线观看

If the link is broken the film might also be available somewhere around your home. It's called "Why We Fight" episode 6 "The Battle of China“.



There are a few countries in this world that one could say it's without China without history. Vietnam is one of them. Learn Chinese before you talk about your history and China's.

Do you got source to back up your claim? China had a influence but it is not the sole factor. Again, in this topic i don't see where i talked about my country history, it is not necassary to learn Chinese to know about history anyway, modern Chinese writing system was different version compare to it is 200 years ago and there are historians and researchers who done that and most pdf got english version in this modern day. It was the view of author, mb you should go and talk to him and it is nothing offensive in the article u quoted from me, no need to be that emotional. He author just write an overview if history on modern China's population

For that ww2 thing, i think this web write quite general of what happen:
World War II and Japan Causes - Pearl Harbor
 
I'm not criticizing US non-action, but would like to correct some people's misconception on the events of the war. It's a fact that China is not strategically important at that point to worth jeopardizing the lucrative trade US has with Japan. I for one have no problem with that, as every state should look after its own interest, but I do have a problem with those who believes or who claims that US came to China's rescue like a shiny knight on a white horse.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the US was China's white knight, but it did act strongly on China's behalf (especially compared to what it did regarding Europe) when it had not obligation to do so, and got dragged into a world war as a result. I don't expect groveling gratitude on the part of China, but I also don't expect history to be re-written to the point where the US is portrayed as actively aiding the Japanese war machine, as so many Chinese users here believe.

If trading with a country means actively aiding that country, then we will soon start blaming China for Iranian terrorism. Fair?
 
Again, in this topic i don't see where i talked about my country history, it is not necassary to learn Chinese to know about history anyway, modern Chinese writing system was different version compare to it is 200 years ago and there are historians and researchers who done that and most pdf got english version in this modern day.

For that ww2 thing, i think this web write quite general of what happen:
World War II and Japan Causes - Pearl Harbor

These words just demonstrated what you can comprehend. Some people are serious about what they talk, others are not. I have been emotional a couple of times but not with you, cheers...
 
There are a few countries in this world that one could say it's without China without history. Vietnam is one of them. Learn Chinese before you talk about your history and China's.

I said do you got prove or source to back up your claim. China influence is important but not the sole factor. Much before that 1000 years, Vietnam was formed by Au Lac and Van Lang and they practice their own believe and culture

These words just demonstrated what you can comprehend. Some people are serious about what they talk, others are not. I have been emotional a couple of times but not with you, cheers...

Sure, i'm still studying and knowledge may got limit and express my ideas but can you see the way you talked?, the word you put too much in anger manner. And i ask for you to back up your claim about that. About learning Chinese to know history, i said the Chinese language and system in Mainland China much more different compare to it 100 years ago and then u got expert, professor and researcher who do study and do research about History and most of their resource, article and PDF are published in English or translate to English!!! It's not really necessary nowadays for that matter, for business make more sense.

The author of the article just write about the influence of history to Modern Chinese and nothing mention for Vietnam-China ussue, i don't know why you go off topic and tell
There are a few countries in this world that one could say it's without China without history. Vietnam is one of them.
 
It's becoming clearer now how the CCP has convinced so many Chinese to hate the US, when history tells the opposite story.

Vice versa. It's becoming clearer now how US has convinced so many people to hate China and boycott Chinese goods while people depend on the goods to cut cost.

History? I tell you the history.

1. We thank US support China to anti-Japan in WWII even then KMT in power.
2. Korean War
3. Taiwan
4. Embargo
5. Bomb Yugoslavia embassy
......

We are fair people and have "和 harmony 合 cooperation" philosophy in mind. Everyone could see the facts if he research "history".

We don't hate US but look down upon its actions. We just don't like the US goverment and its stupid politicians. Election season comes, can't you see?

US is hated around the world. That's also a fact.
 
It's becoming clearer now how the CCP has convinced so many Chinese to hate the US, when history tells the opposite story.

You gave CCP propaganda ministry far too much credit, where instead you should award that credit to the US government and its media. I mean in the 70's & 80's, most people in China worship the US, regardless of what the CCP said. People risk persecution listening to VoA & BBC, and the western media was viewed with utmost esteem. But after the Tibetan riot, after the 08 Olympics, after listening to all the hypocritical and hostile coverage on China, and after watching all the misdeeds by the US around the globe, few remained as stanch supporter of the western narrative. Of course that doesn't mean everyone would now trust CCTV instead, they do not, but they wouldn't take VoA, CNN, AP etc seriously anymore. And I stand by my statement that CCP media has been thoroughly inept in getting its narrative out.
 
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You gave CCP propaganda ministry far too much credit, where instead you should award that credit to the US government and its media. I mean in the 70's & 80's, most people in China worship the US, regardless of what the CCP said. People risk persecution listening to VoA & BBC, and the western media was viewed with utmost esteem. But after the Tibetan riot, after the 08 Olympics, after listening to all the hypocritical and hostile coverage on China, and after watching all the misdeeds by the US around the globe, few remained as stanch supporter of the western narrative. Of course that doesn't mean everyone would now trust CCTV instead, they do not, but they wouldn't take VoA, CNN, AP etc seriously anymore. And I stand by my statement that CCP media has been thoroughly inept in getting its narrative out.

i suppose u mistaken me with @LeveragedBuyout
It's becoming clearer now how the CCP has convinced so many Chinese to hate the US, when history tells the opposite story.
 
Vice versa. It's becoming clearer now how US has convinced so many people to hate China and boycott Chinese goods while people depend on the goods to cut cost.

History? I tell you the history.

1. We thank US support China to anti-Japan in WWII even then KMT in power.
2. Korean War
3. Taiwan
4. Embargo
5. Bomb Yugoslavia embassy
......

We are fair people and have "和 harmony 合 cooperation" philosophy in mind. Everyone could see the facts if he research "history".

We don't hate US but look down upon its actions. We just don't like the US goverment and its stupid politicians. Election season comes, can't you see?

US is hated around the world. That's also a fact.

We could go around and around on this, with me countering that China's involvement in Korea violated its oft-stated policy of non-interference in other countries' affairs, and thus was the cause of animosity between our two countries; or how China's intervention to support a partitioned Korea is hypocrisy in light of its rejection of an independent Taiwan, etc. My objective has not been to convince you that your own country is evil, but rather that the knee-jerk Chinese belief that it is the US that is evil is simplistic and wrong. What the US sees as mistakes (e.g. the Yugoslavian embassy), China willfully interprets as an intentional attack on China. The fact that you argue in circularities (China is fair, which precludes all other historical facts and must mean that the US is unfair; or the US is hated around the world, which justifies Chinese hatred of America) reinforces this.

We won't get any farther given our different perspectives, so you can have the last word, if you like, or we can end it here.

You gave CCP propaganda ministry far too much credit, where instead you should award that credit to the US government and its media. I mean in the 70's & 80's, most people in China worship the US, regardless of what the CCP said. People risk persecution listening to VoA & BBC, and the western media was viewed with utmost esteem. But after the Tibetan riot, after the 08 Olympics, after listening to all the hypocritical and hostile coverage on China, and after watching all the misdeeds by the US around the globe, few remained as stanch supporter of the western narrative. Of course that doesn't mean everyone would now trust CCTV instead, they do not, but they wouldn't take VoA, CNN, AP etc seriously anymore. And I stand by my statement that CCP media has been thoroughly inept in getting its narrative out.

You misunderstood. It's not simply CCTV or the People's Daily. It's the censorship of other opinions, and even more importantly, the CCP-controlled educational system, which molds young Chinese minds even before they are interested in the heavily-censored media's opinion. To demonstrate, look at the Chinese users in this thread who believe that the US actively aided the Japanese war machine in its invasion of China, which is an outright falsehood. But that belief was taught at some point.

That said, like with jkroo, I would say we're now going in circles, so I'll leave it to you to respond if you like. I think we've said what needs to be said, and reached an impasse.

Thanks to both of you for engaging in the discussion with sincerity. I appreciate your input. I'm taking a break from posting on PDF for a while, and this was a great way to wrap up the season.
 
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One thing is analytically and critically obvious. Historically, the US regime, using its massive propaganda education apparatus, has programmed, indoctrinated and opinionated its people according to the geopolitical and elitist needs of the times.

The US people have never let choose an enemy on their own. Or, they have never been left, especially recently, to attend to their own deep social, economic, cultural problems.

The US propaganda and education apparatus, like any advanced, corporatist (neo-fascist) government, decided and determined the evil, the rogue, the peril, the bogeyman, the bad, the dark, the enemy, and the other for the general US population. It was regimes (communism), people (Saddam), and even food at times (French fries) or companies (Toyota or Huawei).

Now it is China.

The US propaganda and indoctrination apparatus now creates an enemy out of China through endless media and government propaganda.

In terms of indoctrination and opinionating prowess, nobody can even come close the US regime.

I wish the non-US/West's propaganda apparatus were half as powerful and effective.

The above strongly opinionated person is just a classic product of such propaganda. Now you should comprehend home comprehensive the apparatus is.
 
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We could go around and around on this, with me countering that China's involvement in Korea violated its oft-stated policy of non-interference in other countries' affairs, and thus was the cause of animosity between our two countries; or how China's intervention to support a partitioned Korea is hypocrisy in light of its rejection of an independent Taiwan, etc. My objective has not been to convince you that your own country is evil, but rather that the knee-jerk Chinese belief that it is the US that is evil is simplistic and wrong. What the US sees as mistakes (e.g. the Yugoslavian embassy), China willfully interprets as an intentional attack on China. The fact that you argue in circularities (China is fair, which precludes all other historical facts and must mean that the US is unfair; or the US is hated around the world, which justifies Chinese hatred of America) reinforces this.

We won't get any farther given our different perspectives, so you can have the last word, if you like, or we can end it here.
It's no use to create enemy for us, we concentrate on our own developments. Enemy exist for its hostile actions and minds. But US is another story. The facts tell us US do need enemy especially after WWII. Don't you know that? I repeat again we don't hate American and further more we thank Americans that help us during WWII. I admit that even you - a moderate American also has a cold war mind even now.

About Korean War,
1.The army that from China named as Chinese People's Volunteer Army - CPVA.
2.Despite the army name, we are in the same camp with North Korea and Soviet Union at that time. You attacked our brothers at the time and went too far.
3. US air force even bombed Yalu river's bridge and the facility nearby. The history you definitely don't know.

About Taiwan,
1. An independent Taiwan is just impossible and returning to its right historic track as time goes by.
2. US admit that Taiwan is an part of China and its the condition that both nations to create a formal diplomatic relationship.
3. US signed many files with China but US never obey most clauses that US signed with their diplomatic manner.

About Yugoslavia embassy,
US just bombed the embassy with 'wrong map'. But result is there and hurts happened. It's not about willfully mind but the serious outcome.

About logic and philosophy,
1. People make mistakes, US made mistakes. It's normal. But US most time you just don't appologize for your own mistakes. For recent affairs, Invade Iraq to find WMD, steal private and organizational information around world. Do you see US gov even bother to explain and don't mention the apology. What we saw is that US use the propagenda machine to divert topic and erase proofs.
2. We don't think that US is evil most time. It's not a knee-jerk thing. US do contribute to concurrent world order as much as he created chaos around world as we can see. Even US do evil things don't mean US is evil all the time.
3. I said we are fair people don't mean Americans are not fair people. Its easy to understand, but you just go too far.

Our beliefs are Materialism and Confucianism. We just have different culture background and different opinions. If it is where the barrier come from I have nothing to say. It seems that you are hurry to end the discussions. As you wish, I will end here with the quotation from Confucius, Harmony in diversity 和而不同. That's my perspective. Take it or not you decide it.
 
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Vice versa. It's becoming clearer now how US has convinced so many people to hate China and boycott Chinese goods while people depend on the goods to cut cost.

History? I tell you the history.

1. We thank US support China to anti-Japan in WWII even then KMT in power.
2. Korean War
3. Taiwan
4. Embargo
5. Bomb Yugoslavia embassy
......

We are fair people and have "和 harmony 合 cooperation" philosophy in mind. Everyone could see the facts if he research "history".

We don't hate US but look down upon its actions. We just don't like the US goverment and its stupid politicians. Election season comes, can't you see?

US is hated around the world. That's also a fact.

There are more to your list when you can find the rest of them here in this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China–United_States_relations

Some other obvious US violations:

"In April 2001, a PRC J-8 fighter jet collided with a US EP-3 reconnaissance aircraft flying south of the PRC in what became known as the Hainan Island incident. The EP-3 was able to make an emergency landing on PRC's Hainan Island despite extensive damage; the PRC aircraft crashed with the loss of its pilot, Wang Wei. It was widely believed that the EP-3 recon aircraft was conducting a spying mission on the Chinese Armed Forces before the collision. Following extensive negotiations resulting in the "letter of the two sorries," the crew of the EP-3 was released from imprisonment and allowed to leave the PRC 11 days later. The US aircraft was not permitted to depart Chinese soil for another three months, after which the relationship between the US and the PRC gradually improved once more."

and

Yinhe incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


and

annually there are about 500 reconnaissance missions conducted by USAF along or inside of our borders

北京则批评美侦察机逼近海南岛220公里已经侵犯中国核心利益_海南岛|南岛|海南|中国_巡逻
美对华侦察变本加厉 张召忠:我们也应侦察美国_新闻_腾讯网

and taking sides with Jpn over Diaoyu Islands disputes

and SCS, Tibet, Xinjiang ...
 
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You are incorrect in applying contemporary mores in judging the Depression-era US. Comparatively speaking, the US went above and beyond for China, a country to which it owed nothing and shared no cultural, linguistic, or historical bonds.

The United States didn't even embargo Nazi Germany in response to its blitzkrieg in Europe, concurrent with Japan's aggression in China. Why do you feel that the Depression-ravaged, isolationist US failed China when it did more for China than it did for Europe?

It pains me that the US wasn't able to save China, but considering the situation of the time, it's hard to see how China could have asked for anything more of the US (again, especially when the US refused to intervene in the wars engulfing its cultural cousin, Europe). The US role as global policeman came after the war, so to use that anachronistic standard and claim that the US failed China, or worse, that by maintaining neutrality the US implicitly aided Japan, is absolutely incorrect.

It amazes me that the Chinese members here fail to see the U.S. stance back then is similar to what China's stance is today: No taking sides, no intervention.

For instance during the Iran/Iraq war (and many other wars) I'm sure China traded with both sides. Do they feel any guilt about it...no. Do they feel like they are the "bad guys" for doing so...no. It was business.

But the U.S. is that "special case". Since we traded with Japan (and China!) we are the "bad guys" and they wonder why WE didn't feel bad about not doing much from 1931 to 1941. Well look at yourselves and ask the same questions. The China vs Japan war at the time was simply like how you would view the Iran/Iraq war. Just two nations over in some corner of the world you really honestly could care less about.

I believe much aid was coming into China from land routes in the French Indochina area. Japan felt this aid was interfering with their war plans and needed to be stopped. So when Japan saw France fall to the Nazis they waltzed straight into French IndoChina to cut it off. It was only then that the U.S. started taking sides with the embargo and then Pearl Harbor happened.

So if there was no invasion of French IndoChina the U.S. probably would have done the same thing it had been doing since 1931.
 

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