China takes cue from Gujarat Inc

[Joe Shearer]

The problem is you stand for 'secularism' without actually knowing what it is. Half knowledge is dangerous than no knowledge.

 

[Yeti]

That was a battle????

Battle not in the military sense but a battle nevertheless, those who died in Godhra did not die in vain.

Hello! Please to note, one of your own, was jumping up and down, saying there was no way Modi was getting sent to prison.

100% right, Are you a betting man? I will wager with you to see if Modi ends up in jail or not.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Three years,Vadodara, Sales Manager Bundy Tubing, Makarpura, lived next to Surya Hotel.

And you?

You haven't answered, Bhairava. Do we understand you haven't been there? It's all hot air and long distance theorizing on the Internet?

When have you been in Gujarat and worked there?

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Again, to one (not necesarily you) who thinks the current version of 'secularism' is the true secularism, views like mine would only seem like Hindutva politics.

I have not so far said one line that in a future Indian state, the Hindus must be given an exalted position, just because they are Hindus. So how come it it becomes Hindutva politics ? Opposing the blatant sucking upto the Muslims and xtians in the name of secularism does not constitute Hindutva politics



Certain historical mistakes have to be corrected for a long term solution. Brushing them under the carpet does not miraculously make them go away. The dirt just keeps accumulating under the carpet and one fine day explodes on your face. And they must be done with the full consent of the both the communities. Do you think Dec 6 would have happened if the Muslim leaders had agreed to peacefully handover the RJ site in return for a grand mosque elsewhere ? I myself would have contributed to the building of the mosque in whatever way it was possible. No they did not and things came to their natural conclusion. I will not be lying if I said that Hindu mind does harbor some grudge towards the past injustices committed, its most sacred places desecrated,demolished and to top it all mosques built on top and it wants them to set be right. Not by asking for a blood sacrifice, but peaceful and mutually agreed upon things that go a long way in giving a sense of closure and increases the trust between the communities.

Ram Rajya in the sense justice would be upheld even if its the King's wife who is under suspicion. Give it the name booba bear Rajya and I could not give a damn.

Let go of the words and concentrate on the ideas.

I don't think demolition of babari was a great thing to do . ram would have preferred life long vanavasa rather than staying in the proposed ram mandir.
historical mistakes were done by invaders, and modern Indian laws has on jurisdiction on that. today in modern India those place as used by another community as their worship place , that should be respected. why should your Hindu mind keep a grudge against your Muslim brothers for an act done by foreign invader ? you also agree that many of them were forcefully converted ?don't you ?. will it make sense to reverse that action today by force ? or by requesting them saying " hey your forefathers were forcefully converted, so you please come back to Hinduism ?

And isn't there sikh temples which were allegedly built over ancient Hindu temples ?

didn't the vaishnava and shiva kings destroyed each others temples ?


why adamant on building the temple on exactly at the same place where it got destroyed in the kings era ? knowing the current statues of that place. that shows your real intentions. what if Muslim brothers propose contributing money ( just like you mentioned to contribute towards mosque) for building new temples near by ? would you accept that ?




If one didn't care what name one call for ideal state, they would not have named it ram rajya, the name has a ideological political motive , you can't deny that. French style secularism should start with the naming itself. you only said secularism is not about making different laws for different regions right ? then how can you call it ram rajya, and ask others to call it accordingly ?

 

[Yeti]

I agreee with Bhairava in that Certain historical mistakes have to be corrected for a long term solution. Otherwise it will create more problems in the future.

 

[()()]

'Internet warriors' never leave any chance to jump in to condemn and shout at any incident of violence in Pakistan or elsewhere as in case of recent protests.They are hell bend to declare anyone terrorist.
But if they don't get any chance to condemn Gujarat mass murder perpetrators, It can be safely assumed that by their heart they are defending/supporting them.
Why they never post anything against the murderers when they have time and determination to post for every trivial issues?
We all can see the hypocrites and their hypocrisy.

 

[()()]

I agreee with Bhairava in that Certain historical mistakes have to be corrected for a long term solution. Otherwise it will create more problems in the future.

lol
Talking about historical mistakes..First Lets stop ourselves from making any mistakes or after sometime few will appear to correct our mistakes
So from where we should start? 1000 BC ?

 

[Yeti]

lol
Talking about historical mistakes..First Lets stop ourselves from making any mistakes or after sometime few will appear to correct our mistakes
So from where we should start? 1000 BC ?

Well we are just asking for our religious places that were destroyed to be rebuilt the same way Somnath was, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Yeti]

He has not been charged or arraigned. Babu Bajrangi and Maya Kodnani have been charged and arraigned, tried and convicted. There was not a whimper of protest from the proud Hindutvavadis.

Those rioters were cowards, who killed in mobs, and killed the helpless and defenseless. I doubt that anyone will do anything when the time comes.

By the way, the big Defence their supporters put up for the LeT is that they are among the first to reach the site of a natural disaster. You should be proud, really proud of the company the RSS and the VHP are keeping.

Of course some heads had to roll that is politics but the big fish which is Modi will not spend time in jail. Yes I am very much proud of RSS and VHP it is the social fabric which binds India together in my view.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Of course some heads had to roll that is politics but the big fish which is Modi will not spend time in jail. Yes I am very much proud of RSS and VHP it is the social fabric which binds India together in my view.

How ever big the fish is , if proven guilty , then that's the end of him, and Indian justice system has enough power to catch and fry the fish , how ever big he is .Same people and party which supports him will denounce him , if he is proven guilty, or else they don't have a future, that is also politics.

 

[Yeti]

How ever big the fish is , if proven guilty , then that's the end of him, and Indian justice system has enough power to catch and fry the fish , how ever big he is .Same people and party which supports him will denounce him , if he is proven guilty, or else they don't have a future, that is also politics.

I very much doubt that and the reason is Modi is backed by the big guns such as TATA, RELIANCE etc not to mention the NRI Gujarati community in USA and UK. Money is power in India and the Modi fan club is only increasing day by day.

 

[Joe Shearer]

If the political front comes on its own or with the help of its old/trusted allies it will.

Anyway the point is BJP is not opposing the UCC. Its the so-called secular parties along with the Mullah/pastor combo.

The point is that the entire SanghParivar keeps droning on about a uniform civil code as if its absence puts an undemocratic and inequitable handicap on the majority. This is manifestly wrong. How a Christian divorce is framed, how it is decided according to Christian personal law, cannot in any material way affect the tenor of the life of a member of the majority. There are no disadvantages imposed, no burdens imposed. Why do you keep asking for it? To keep needling the minorities, and keep showing them their places? To take some malicious pleasure in keeping the minorities insecure at all times? Secularism is the exclusion of religion from public affairs, and it is only a perverted, mischief-making sensibility that can equate the regulation of the private life of people with public affairs.

It is only an excuse that the majority uses, an excuse to unsettle them and to keep them insecure, always worried about any imposition of unwanted interference in their personal lives. It is a deviation from a system that was introduced because a system of law which dealt with a single religion and a single personal code was sought to be introduced to a country with a diversity of personal codes. English common-law dealt with an England that was christian, indeed, officially Anglican. It never sought a system which rejected Anglican christianity, or acknowledged other forms of Christian practice, or practice of other religions. That is why it applied a common set of principles to civil matters and criminal matters, making no distinction between people in the treatment of these issues, but sought to apply their own systems to the personal matters of a hugely diversified population in India.

Clearly, the Sangh Parivar uses the uniform civil code as a stick with which to beat the minorities.

You are not a Hindu. So were you tortured on the cross ? Are you not safe and sound to spin your yarns now ?

That was not what you asked. You questioned my knowledge of the state and the actual situation on the ground. I answered, to the point, and asked for yur credentials in turn. You have repeatedly avoided that, obviously because your original implication was intended to shift the burden of the argument from the logic contained in it to the person presnting that argument. Yet you cannot withstand that criticism yourself.

You say I am a Christian. If I was, would my logic be wrong? Is that your vision of a secular state, one where each person is measured in everything that he says and writes by his religious background?

If it helps to penetrate your seemingly impenetrable carapace of prejudice, I was born a Bengali Hindu, subject, as I have pointed out, to Dayabhaga law, whose ancestors were Shakta, whose ancestors were of east Bengali stock on both sides. My wife is from a Srivaishnavite family whose religious philosophy is Vishishtadvaita, and who can trace her ancestry back 900 years through written records.

Does that alter my logic miraculously in any way? Will that make you admit that I am right and you are wrong?

Nahhh..saying..One swallow does not make a summer

That there is more to Modi than what you see through your unidimensional, tunnel vision

Please answer the question. Is that what you are saying? Yes or no?

 

[Joe Shearer]

The first step in introducing the french style secularism is shaming and weeding out the pests that abuse the name of secularism in India for their narrow political gain and vested interests. Unfortunately those pests try their level best to browbeat and discredit anyone who questions their flagrant misuse of the word secularism by decrying the criticism as Hindutva inspired fundamentalist politics.

You are presumably referring to congress party supporters and to communists. Those were not the people killed in Gujarat? Why were Muslims killed, not congress men? Not that any sane person suggests that killing your political opponents is a legitimate method of political discourse, but just to expose the hollowness of that argument.

Why, by the way, is your Hindu nationalism so different from the Hindu nationalism of the great figures of the Hindu community of just a few years ago? Why does it depend not on inspiring the Hindu but on pulling down the minorities? Why does it suffer from a permanent inferiority complex?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Unfortunate reality of the world we live in. It sure is a cruel place. And more saddening fact is that the fanatics did not even think of the repercussion when they were toasting alive the 59 pilgrims who were mostly women and children.

I note, with amazement and distaste, that you actually do think so. You actually do believe that a criminal act in one place can be avenged, not punished, by a criminal act in another place against innocent members of that community.

It is amazing that you hold such beliefs and call yourself a civilized person. It is even more amazing that you admit this in public.

 

[Joe Shearer]

This is the third time I'm asking you. I dare you to point just one post where I defended the convicts. Defending one who is still not convicted, on the golden principle of Innocent until proven guilty, does not mean you go defending the lawfully convicted.

You are asking the wrong question and asking it to avoid answering a question put to you. You were not asked if you upheld the convictions or not. That was never questioned. You were asked if at all the trials should have taken place, in your view.