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China Struggles To Build An F-22

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SBD-3

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November 17, 2009: The Chinese Air Force has announced that it has a F-22 type aircraft ready to make its first flight within a year. The Chinese believe this aircraft will enter service within ten years. U.S. intelligence believes the Chinese are nowhere near this kind of capability. But given the quantity and quality of data Chinese hackers have been stealing in the past five years, it's possible that they have much of the American technology that makes the F-22 and F-35 possible. Some believe that the Chinese also have a F-35 type design in the works as well.

American intel analysts believe that Chinese aviation technology (both design and manufacturing) is not yet capable of producing F-22/F-35 class aircraft. Given the experience with the first two Chinese designed and manufactured jet fighters (J-10 and JF-17), there is much doubt that China is capable of making the leap to F-22 class fighters. The big bottleneck is jet engine technology.

For two decades now, China has been developing the manufacturing technology for aircraft engines, the key component of any high performance aircraft. So far, China has been unable to create the manufacturing technology and personnel skills that are needed to make the engines for their most advanced jet fighters. For example, China is a major customer for Russian RD93 engines (originally designed for the MiG-29), and has bought over a thousand of them. The RD93 engines currently cost about $2.5 million each.

China has been developing a similar (apparently identical) engine to the RD93, the WS-13. Actually, this effort is being aided by Russia, which is selling China technology needed for the manufacture of key engine components. Russia isn't happy about this, because they don't want competition in the low cost jet engine market. Then again, China has a history of stealing technology it cannot buy, so the Russians are making the best of a bad situation. China says the WS-13 is nearly ready for service. Maybe, maybe not. Recently, China ordered another hundred RD93s. Building high performance military jet engines is difficult, and China has had problems mastering this kind of stuff. Not that they will not eventually acquire the skills, but until they do, they need the Russian made RD93s. Officially, more RD93 are being bought because China cannot produce enough of their WS-13s.

Chinese engineers also thought they had managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL31F engine. This Chinese copy, the WS10A, was meant for the Chinese J-10 fighter, which entered service two years ago. But the Chinese Air Force was not satisfied with the reliability or performance of the WS10A, and have ordered another hundred AL31Fs from Russia, in order to continue building J-10s. Meanwhile, Russian efforts to build an improved AL31 for their own F-22 competitor, have run into serious problems. Will the Chinese suddenly do better than their tutors?

The J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J-10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia. The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine.

The 13 ton JF-17, which uses the RD93, is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. It was developed in cooperation with Pakistan. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F-16 models. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Most of the JF-17 electronics (in the Pakistani version) are Western, with Italian firms being major suppliers. The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and use radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of 55,000 feet. China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped.
 
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November 17, 2009: The Chinese Air Force has announced that it has a F-22 type aircraft ready to make its first flight within a year. The Chinese believe this aircraft will enter service within ten years. U.S. intelligence believes the Chinese are nowhere near this kind of capability. But given the quantity and quality of data Chinese hackers have been stealing in the past five years, it's possible that they have much of the American technology that makes the F-22 and F-35 possible. Some believe that the Chinese also have a F-35 type design in the works as well.

American intel analysts believe that Chinese aviation technology (both design and manufacturing) is not yet capable of producing F-22/F-35 class aircraft. Given the experience with the first two Chinese designed and manufactured jet fighters (J-10 and JF-17), there is much doubt that China is capable of making the leap to F-22 class fighters. The big bottleneck is jet engine technology.

For two decades now, China has been developing the manufacturing technology for aircraft engines, the key component of any high performance aircraft. So far, China has been unable to create the manufacturing technology and personnel skills that are needed to make the engines for their most advanced jet fighters. For example, China is a major customer for Russian RD93 engines (originally designed for the MiG-29), and has bought over a thousand of them. The RD93 engines currently cost about $2.5 million each.

China has been developing a similar (apparently identical) engine to the RD93, the WS-13. Actually, this effort is being aided by Russia, which is selling China technology needed for the manufacture of key engine components. Russia isn't happy about this, because they don't want competition in the low cost jet engine market. Then again, China has a history of stealing technology it cannot buy, so the Russians are making the best of a bad situation. China says the WS-13 is nearly ready for service. Maybe, maybe not. Recently, China ordered another hundred RD93s. Building high performance military jet engines is difficult, and China has had problems mastering this kind of stuff. Not that they will not eventually acquire the skills, but until they do, they need the Russian made RD93s. Officially, more RD93 are being bought because China cannot produce enough of their WS-13s.

Chinese engineers also thought they had managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL31F engine. This Chinese copy, the WS10A, was meant for the Chinese J-10 fighter, which entered service two years ago. But the Chinese Air Force was not satisfied with the reliability or performance of the WS10A, and have ordered another hundred AL31Fs from Russia, in order to continue building J-10s. Meanwhile, Russian efforts to build an improved AL31 for their own F-22 competitor, have run into serious problems. Will the Chinese suddenly do better than their tutors?

The J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J-10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia. The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine.

The 13 ton JF-17, which uses the RD93, is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. It was developed in cooperation with Pakistan. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F-16 models. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Most of the JF-17 electronics (in the Pakistani version) are Western, with Italian firms being major suppliers. The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and use radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of 55,000 feet. China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped.

This seems to be one of most biased anti-China article there.

The J-10 has consistently defeated Su-27 in aerial combat exercises, and the WS-10A engine has been fitted to many J-10s from many pictures I have seen. The WS-10A is superior to AL-31 in terms of thrust weight ratio and lifetime service hours.
 
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my best wishes for china.i hope next jet will be enter in service with in 5 years,
may be any western country is helping chines
 
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a garbage article. the electronics on the J-10 make the electronics on the Su-27 look like a plastic cell phone for kids. if the J-10 is like the F-16, is the article admitting that F-16's are garbage compared to Su-27?

how did the article come to the conclusion that the J-10 is not successful? the flow of logic can only fool 3rd graders. it goes: the J-10 is the first modern plane designed by China. it is not successful. The unstated implication is, whatever is Chinese must not be successful.

If that is true, then GE can drop its request for high speed rail technology from China, since it is stupid to buy something that's unsuccessful.

and how are the Russians our mentors lol maybe in 1950 but from 1960-1990 we were definitely not even close to one another.
 
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The J-10 has consistently defeated Su-27 in aerial combat exercises,

Are there any further details on this, and also under what conditions? I though Su-27 would have the upper hand.

regards.
 
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Best article of the day!


the whole world knows, china has copied technology including pakistan.
 
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Best article of the day!


the whole world knows, china has copied technology including pakistan.

:sniper: spot on brother !!

Seems somewhere something is burning and it isn't giving a pleasant smell :rofl::rofl:

Copied or not copied, they are making a hell of a progress and they have not only just coped, but they have improved their products too, but you guys won't see to that, which is understandable.

So you guys go on a shopping spree from around the world, China will be building its own capacity with these copy cats and will stand up to you guys and to others, then we will see what works how and how effective.
 
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Seems somewhere something is burning and it isn't giving a pleasant smell :rofl::rofl:

Copied or not copied, they are making a hell of a progress and they have not only just coped, but they have improved their products too, but you guys won't see to that, which is understandable.

So you guys go on a shopping spree from around the world, China will be building its own capacity with these copy cats and will stand up to you guys and to others, then we will see what works how and how effective.




There is no doubt that china is prograssing lot and i mean A LOT!:tup:


But That is off-topic. :agree:


Now come back to "Copying".:oops:
 
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There is no doubt that china is prograssing lot and i mean A LOT!:tup:


But That is off-topic. :agree:


Now come back to "Copying".:oops:

If that bold part is not sarcastic remark, well then that is what matters the most, and the copying thing has no meaning left.

And instead of coming back to copying, better you come to the topic at hand.
 
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Seems somewhere something is burning and it isn't giving a pleasant smell :rofl::rofl:

We know how it smells ,Indians always feel it comin from one direction..and belive me that smells worse ;)

Copied or not copied, they are making a hell of a progress and they have not only just coped, but they have improved their products too, but you guys won't see to that, which is understandable.

Ok I see that what you say..they have improved their products too and they have made progress...I take notice of that..should I ignore the the entire thred that says about them copying stuff ??

So you guys go on a shopping spree from around the world, China will be building its own capacity with these copy cats and will stand up to you guys and to others, then we will see what works how and how effective.

Oh yes we are on a shopping spree !!
and I'll just echo your words...let China build its own stuff and as you say lets see what happens when the time comes :P
 
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If that bold part is not sarcastic remark, well then that is what matters the most, and the copying thing has no meaning left.



Well, you see that's where we disagreed. Indeed, china is prograssing a lot, However it's not good for china where their is about one's reputation.

i highly doubt that by copying, anyone can maintain their reputation high in the world and world will respect you!


correct me if i am wrong, that you don't care about reputation at all. :P


well, that's what it does look like from your post.


Only Progress, who cares about reputation! lol
 
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There is no doubt that china is prograssing lot and i mean A LOT!:tup:


But That is off-topic. :agree:


Now come back to "Copying".:oops:

Even to copy such high technology requires brain power. So by this logic, India lacks the skills and brain power to even copy technology.

No wonder Arjun and LCA are failures despite of having access to all sorts of tech from Russia, EU, Israel, and whatnot and 100s of millons of investments in some 30 year long projects.

Hard to swallow? Oh yeahhh....
 
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wather copy or what ever we are so happy to join with china and go hell rule we love china and we will in future. make copy of f-22 b-2 b-52 pak-fa f-35 and refale we will buy it and we are happy to buy it.love you china
 
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