China reveals its cards for investing $20 billion in Pakistan

[Chinese-Dragon]

No Chinese investment has gone sour in Pakistan, the only country i can speak at the behalf of. Inshallah, no investment shall go in vain. We have more to lose from distrust with our most trusted friend.

That is good news indeed.

What I meant is that if we were to complete the construction of a dam or a railway for instance, and a country was (for some reason or another) unable to pay afterwards, we wouldn't be able to physically "take" back the infrastructure, nor would it be cost effective to do so.

We are the world's largest creditor (due to our currency reserves being larger than the rest of the world's combined)... so we are used to the risks. Projects go bad ALL the time, all over the world. It's just something that happens, regardless of how carefully you plan your contingencies.

There will never be hard feelings about projects failing, if it could not be helped.

Do you know how to say this sentence in Urdu? That would be a good piece of knowledge to have.

 

[airuah]

The way i see it profits only china

1- the project is going to be built on loan which Pak has to pay back

2-the project is without bidding- quality issues that may occur cannot be put in check by Pakistan i.e. whateven china decides to build Pakistan has to accept

3- Project will be carried by chinese companies which use chinese workers which means - no work for Pakistani workers and the cost that china is putting in actually doubles cause the workers wages go back to china, the cost of equipment used goes back to chinese companies. While the loan amount fully stays with Pakistan without Pakistani workers finding any work to make a living in the process......

 

[raazh]

Actually this is normal business procedure .. If a country A loans X amount of Money to country B, then A would not like B to use their money but buy products from say country C. What do you think FMS program is?? US gives you loan on paper and tells you to buy xyz stuff from US based companies. So the money stays within US all the time.

And specially in Pakistan; this is the best solution against our corrupt system. Otherwise, all these projects will get dragged into long Red tape bureaucracy just like indian defense procurements.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

The way i see it profits only china

1- the project is going to be built on loan which Pak has to pay back

2-the project is without bidding- quality issues that may occur cannot be put in check by Pakistan i.e. whateven china decides to build Pakistan has to accept

3- Project will be carried by chinese companies which use chinese workers which means - no work for Pakistani workers and the cost that china is putting in actually doubles cause the workers wages go back to china, the cost of equipment used goes back to chinese companies. While the loan amount fully stays with Pakistan without Pakistani workers finding any work to make a living in the process......

So why is India welcoming us into their infrastructure sector?

India welcomes Chinese investments in infrastructure sector - Economic Times

PM seeks Chinese investments in Indian projects - Hindustan Times

Just dumb, or what?

India already has by far the worst fiscal and trade deficits in the entire developing world, and the majority of India's trade deficit is already owed to China.

Do you want to owe us even more?

 

[airuah]

So why is India welcoming us into their infrastructure sector?

India welcomes Chinese investments in infrastructure sector - Economic Times

PM seeks Chinese investments in Indian projects - Hindustan Times

Just dumb, or what?

India already has by far the worst fiscal and trade deficits in the entire developing world, and the majority of India's trade deficit is already owed to China.

Do you want to owe us even more?

1)We dont give any offers without bidding , there will always be a check with respect to quality is concerened....

You dont get the project independently you always tie up with some Indian company....and you get contracts only if Indian companies are not having the tech required to it themselves....

 

[kbd-raaf]

So why is India welcoming us into their infrastructure sector?

India welcomes Chinese investments in infrastructure sector - Economic Times

PM seeks Chinese investments in Indian projects - Hindustan Times

Just dumb, or what?

India already has by far the worst fiscal and trade deficits in the entire developing world, and the majority of India's trade deficit is already owed to China.

Do you want to owe us even more?

Investments have nothing to do with fiscal or trade deficits Investments are not loans.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Investments have nothing to do with fiscal or trade deficits Investments are not loans.

True enough.

But if you read the post I responded to, your fellow Indian basically said it's helping China not Pakistan.

Same with China-India trade and deals. We are wrecking your finances, you now have the very worst trade deficit in the entire developing world. The majority of which is owed to China.

And your PM is begging for more.

So whatever you think about China's deals with Pakistan, their trade deficit to us is nowhere close to India's trade deficit to us.

 

[kbd-raaf]

True enough.

But if you read the post I responded to, your fellow Indian basically said it's helping China not Pakistan.

Same with China-India trade and deals. We are wrecking your finances, you now have the very worst trade deficit in the entire developing world. The majority of which is owed to China.

And your PM is begging for more.

So whatever you think about China's deals with Pakistan, their trade deficit to us is nowhere close to India's trade deficit to us.

China doesn't do anything that doesn't help China. To say this deal isn't helping China is silly. China knows well that nobody else will invest in Pakistan and thus with deals like this they can monopolise entire sectors in Pakistan thus garnering more and more influence in the country. China doesn't need to make a monetary ROI on this $20B, their ROI is going to bein the form of a political class that will pander to all of the CCPs whims.

Pakistanis are completely okay with this loss of sovereignty as long as it is China doing it and not the US. China is investing more per capita in India but their investments in India don't come with a strangehold on the country's vital sectors. Pakistanis (and South Asians) in general are an emotional people, who'll see only the short term benefits of such deals.

China is not wrecking India's finances. India is wrecking India's finances. India is not providing the supply for the demand of goods which China is.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

China doesn't do anything that doesn't help China. To say this deal isn't helping China is silly. China knows well that nobody else will invest in Pakistan and thus with deals like this they can monopolise entire sectors in Pakistan thus garnering more and more influence in the country. China doesn't need to make a monetary ROI on this $20B, their ROI is going to bein the form of a political class that will pander to all of the CCPs whims.

Pakistanis are completely okay with this loss of sovereignty as long as it is China doing it and not the US. China is investing more per capita in India but their investments in India don't come with a strangehold on the country's vital sectors. Pakistanis (and South Asians) in general are an emotional people, who'll see only the short term benefits of such deals.

China is not wrecking India's finances. India is wrecking India's finances. India is not providing the supply for the demand of goods which China is.

Investment is all about risk and reward.

If no one else wants to invest, then we will invest.

But we obviously don't do charity. If the risk is high, the rewards need to be high as well.

As for having a "stranglehold"... the global economy is interconnected. You can make the argument that we have a "stranglehold" on most countries in the world, and in turn those same countries have a "stranglehold" on us as well.

We are the world's biggest creditor. We can get screwed over by our trading partners just as easily as the other way around.

Do you know how much we own in Britain's infrastructure sectors, especially water and energy? That's not a loss of sovereignty for them, that is good business.

And we are buying up VAST amounts of LAND in places like Ireland, Ukraine, and Kazakhstan. Do you consider that a loss of sovereignty for them? No, it's good business.

 

[kbd-raaf]

Investment is all about risk and reward.

If no one else wants to invest, then we will invest.

But we obviously don't do charity. If the risk is high, the rewards need to be high as well.

As for having a "stranglehold"... the global economy is interconnected. You can make the argument that we have a "stranglehold" on most countries in the world, and in turn those same countries have a "stranglehold" on us as well.

We are the world's biggest creditor. We can get screwed over by our trading partners just as easily as the other way around.

Do you know how much we own in Britain's infrastructure sectors, especially water and energy? That's not a loss of sovereignty for them, that is good business.

No I don't? Linky?

No I don't? Linky?

And I'm betting that most of those Chinese holdings in foreign countries form the minority of all the projects. For example China financed part of the Mumbai Metro, but not enough to be able to dictate which directions the project goes in (for good or bad).

India needs the easy credit from China and desperately needs Chinese management principles. It's getting the former but needs the latter more.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

No I don't? Linky?

Just search for it, there are articles everywhere.

What is your rationale behind your theory that Pakistan is selling out its sovereignty to China?

China has more economic clout in India than Pakistan, just look at the trade numbers. Chinese firms like Lenovo are dominating markets in India, and even so-called "domestic" brands like Micromax are just reselling Chinese mobile phones.

And what is sovereignty?

The most powerful person in India by FAR is a white European woman (Sonia). Is that sovereignty?

 

[kbd-raaf]

Just search for it, there are articles everywhere.

What is your rationale behind your theory that Pakistan is selling out it's sovereignty to China?

China has more economic clout in India than Pakistan, just look at the trade numbers. Chinese firms like Lenovo are dominating markets in India, and even so-called "domestic" brands like Micromax are just reselling Chinese mobile phones.

My rationale is that entire national sectors like the power and transmission industry is going to be influenced by a foreign country. China will hold all the stakes in numerous projects.

Micromax used to, not anymore. They design their own now

China certainly does not have more economic clout in India than in Pakistan. How do you figure?

And what is sovereignty?
The most powerful person in India by FAR is a white European woman (Sonia). Is that sovereignty?

Yes, an Indian citizen is the most powerful person in India, so shameful right?

Sonia cannot subvert the Indian system to aid Italy. Even she is subservient to Indian laws ( technically).

China ready to invest £50bn in UK infrastructure - Telegraph

From the above, China is looking to purchase equity in Britains power plants. It will be cold day in hell before they allow China to own entire sectors of their power industry.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

My rationale is that entire national sectors like the power and transmission industry is going to be influenced by a foreign country. China will hold all the stakes in numerous projects.

I'm not sure how China having a large influence in a country's infrastructure sector is more of a "loss of sovereignty" than being ruled by a European?

What "authority" do we have over the Pakistani state? None, only influence.

@Aeronaut, are we taking away your sovereignty?

 

[kbd-raaf]

I'm not sure how China having a large influence in a country's infrastructure sector is more of a "loss of sovereignty" than being ruled by a European?

What "authority" do we have over the Pakistani state? None, only influence.

@Aeronaut, are we taking away your sovereignty?

An European can be an Indian citizen. I try not to be racist.

China with projects like this now has more influence in Pakistan than the US ever did. And the US made Pakistan fight its wars for it. Idk about you, but if I was Pakistani that would worry me.

We both know what Aeronauts response is going to be.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

An European can be an Indian citizen. I try not to be racist.

China with projects like this now has more influence in Pakistan than the US ever did. And the US made Pakistan fight its wars for it. Idk about you, but if I was Pakistani that would worry me.

From reading this thread, it seems pretty clear that it's the Indian members doing most of the "worrying" on behalf of the Pakistanis.

We both know what Aeronauts response is going to be.

Well let's find out, right?

China with projects like this now has more influence in Pakistan than the US ever did.

Influence doesn't mean a loss of sovereignty though.

Sovereignty is a nation/state having authority over and within its own territory.

China has never challenged Pakistan's authority within their own territory, never. If we need some help we'll ask, and since we are friends they will often try to help us.

China is certainly not a saint (or anywhere close), but we are not taking Pakistan's sovereignty, and we are not challenging their authority over their own territory.